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P90D - What battery versions should I avoid?

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As I recall highest recored V3 maxed at 511 or 512
There was someone with a V3 that registered in the 520's, but yea, I think most were in the 510's.
Most of the V2's were in the upper 480's with a couple reaching low 490's.
V1's were typically in the mid 450's.

The whole 90 pack was a huge shambled mess. My V1 BMS registers usable as 72.1kWh now, and I'm only at 60k miles.
 
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Correct: the V1 and the P85DL both achieve 3.1sec.


Correct: the V2 & V3 are both limited to 1600A, however the V2 maxes out at ~495kW, whereas the V3 maxes out at ~525kW. I can't recall whether that was due to limiting voltage sag on the V3, or they were indeed drawing a small amount more current.
Based on what I do remember, I believe it was a change in battery chemistry that netted less voltage sag.

For reference: the V1 maxes out at ~455kW.

This is heavily documented here in the forums, but I can't search for it at the moment: sorry.

Could be less sag but it also could be just not enough data. Max power can vary widely by SOC and temperature. Add to that individual packs vary from one another already due to cell binning to group cells of near identical capacity together.
 
There was someone with a V3 that registered in the 520's, but yea, I think most were in the 510's.
Most of the V2's were in the upper 480's with a couple reaching low 490's.
V1's were typically in the mid 450's.

The whole 90 pack was a huge shambled mess. My V1 BMS registers usable as 72.1kWh now, and I'm only at 60k miles.

That's because they put silicon in the anode to increase capacity but the way it does that is allows the anode to absorb more electrolyte which allows the the anode to expand more which results in increased fracturing.
 
Sorry for not responding earlier, I've been out of town at a funeral.

Once again, I'm not sure you really understand how it works. With a battery management system what you're getting is an estimate of range. When you use enough for the battery to get close to the bottom and then charge it up very close to the top, or all the way the BMS allows you to, it can estimate more accurately how much range you will have.

It is not possible to increase the range on a lithium ion battery vehicle. Not once it's built I should say. New chemistry's and all can help, but that can't be injected into an existing battery. You are getting a very nice range on your p90d and should be quite pleased with it! But you're not improving the battery, or even helping it out all that much, by going down low and then up high on the charge. You're probably not hurting it much either! Leaving it at 100% will cause an increase in debdrite formation that will definitely not be good for your battery. Leaving it very low has other chemical difficulties. Keeping it between 30 and 70 percent will give you the absolute maximum life on a lithium ion battery. You might want to read up on Jeffrey Dahns work. He is pretty amazing.

The battery cells need to be balanced is what you are referring too and the only way to know what your accurate max range is, is by doing several 100% charges in a row, like 3 lets say. And again just like the BMS doesn't let you drain the battery completely, it also does not let you charge to 100% only around 95%. So when it is 100% SOC it is actually closer to 95%, which would prevent the battery from ever reaching a true 100% charge thus not having the same negative effects of a actual 100% charge. What I am explaining to do here is for owners who have experienced a lot of battery degradation who never charge to 100% to do so asap and see how much their range goes up after doing it, so they have a real idea of how much degradation has actually occurred. The only way to really know that all the cells are being charged would be too charge to 100% occasionally even tho Tesla says the BMS rotates them already but I don't believe you would have too charge to 100% in order to find out the accurate range if that were true. Now lately they say to charge to 90% because this allows the BMS to rotate the uncharged cells better apparently allowing the uncharged cells to be charged on your next charge. So basically you could get an accurate range by doing 90% charges and can do 100% charge occasionally just to make sure that all the cells are being balanced and let you to see exactly how much battery degradation has actually occurred. When doing 100% it is best if you do not leave it at a 100% for a prolonged time. This is true especially if it was really a true 100% charge however it is not and is closer to 95%. Just like Apple cuts the battery short of a 100% charge with their cell phones (99% is max Apple allows cell phones to be charged) Tesla has their BMS do the same, preventing the battery from ever reaching 100% on full charge and keeps it from going to 0%, even when it dies. Also there have been several owners who only charged to 80% for long periods of time or the entire time before deciding to charge too 100% in order to raise the range so it could be accurate, with no success in adding any mileage by doing so. This makes me think that if you do not charge too 100% charge on occasion then you will lose more range than those that do. There is one owner who charged his model s to 100% every time and after 100k miles he had 5% degradation compared to 12% degradation that Tesla has stated is the average after 100K miles. So he had 7% more range (5% loss) than what Tesla said would be considered average (12% loss) after 100K miles.

So the BMS is not a perfect system that needs to be basically re-calibrated every once in a while with a full charge in order to get a accurate reading on your range. Also common sense should tell you why Tesla really doesn't want you too charge to a 100%. If you have a performance model s with ludicrous than charging to 100% is going to allow you to pull the max amps/kw (In ludicrous + or ludicrous max battery) which in turn can cause battery damage leading to a replacement. Most of us who bought a performance model s did so because we wanted a car that had the ability to accelerate faster than almost any exotic car. So we want to have are car in ludicrous all the time otherwise we would have just got one without. So knowing that this is when the (100% SOC) battery can have the most damaged caused I would assume Tesla knows that. So obviously they don't want you to be ruining batteries that they will have to pay for under their warranty! So they would want to deter owners from doing this which would be done by telling you that charging to 100% will cause the most battery degradation. Which isn't true based on data from owners who have been ( charging to 100% ) in posts on here and other forums. What it can cause is for the battery to have some type of failure ( ie; overheating from excessive power from max battery/ludicrous +) that would in turn effect the performance of the battery as far as kw/hp but did not effect range in my case. My range was still around 268-269 but the battery suffered a huge loss of performance (440-450kw) which is covered under their warranty opposed to battery degradation which is not. So assuming Tesla isn't being completely honest which they have never done before LMAO, I would not believe everything they say especially in regards to charging their batteries. They clearly don't mind hearing how much battery degradation any owner is experiencing because they do not have to cover that under warranty especially since they can decide what is too much and what is not. However they cannot dispute the fact when performance is lost(kw/hp), as that is covered under warranty, all they can do is try to prevent you from causing such damage in the first place. Also if you do receive a new battery chances are it will be a better newer battery than what you previously had or even might be a higher battery, ie; getting a 90 instead of an 85 or 100 instead of a 90 which is what I almost got. Tesla stopped making all batteries besides the 100 and 75 so chances are you will end up with a higher battery that will be regulated by the software. So when it comes to the 100 battery we can look at the chart and see how much better it is at getting high kw/hp even when not charged at a 100%.

So instead of believing everything Tesla employees say (Jeffrey Dahns) I like to have some common sense and remember that Tesla has already been caught lying more so than not.The WHOLE reason of this entire POST is about them completely misleading and lying to buyers about the 2015-2016 P90DL battery. For example they also did a software update which basically limited all ludicrous batteries from pulling the amps/kw they once could. However they got caught doing this and had to change it back and even admit to performing the update that intentionally limited the power of all performance ludicrous model's s and x, saying that it was causing battery damage as their reasoning to the update. So I cannot believe what one of their employees is telling me to do without questioning their reasons, when their primary concern is not me but their company first and foremost.

So with having experience of trying these different charging ideas and experiencing almost no loss of range in my first battery. At 18k miles I had 1-2 miles of range lost (268-269 instead of 270). Now I have a new battery that has just been balanced from 270 to 272 miles of range. Also I am always driving in ludicrous, not max power always, but in ludicrous always. Only time I am not is when I am traveling anywhere that I have to stop more than once too charge. So what I due for my charging is too charge at 27-30 amps keeping it at 50% to 90% and than letting it drop to around 60 miles and charging to 100% every few weeks. If I end up needing a new battery again well guess what? It will most likely be a 100 battery which means I will be able to get much higher kw/hp at much lower SOC. I will also be able to charge to 100% SOC with no negative effects since it's a 100 battery instead of a 90. In the pics below you will see that a V2 can reach a max kw of about 495kw (501kw was highest recorded) and the V3 can get above 500kw consistently and I believe the highest I ever saw recorded was close to 530kw. I got mine up too 520kw right after the new V3 battery was installed, (part #1088792-00-A) I proceeded to charge to 100% and had it tested thru a vbox. I also have the power tools app which isn't 100% accurate but is still very good tool to see what kw you are getting. The highest mine showed on the power tools app was 509kw. I didn't do launch mode however just max power when I used my power tools app to get 509kw. The other V3 battery is part #1088790-00-A and hasn't been able to get as high of kw as the latter V3 battery. In the pic that shows the graph with 100 battery you can see that the 100 battery is capable of getting much higher kw even at a low SOC compared to the 90 battery. Which is why I was hoping to get a 100 battery instead that would have been limited by the software to a 90 battery but would still have the same performance capabilities as a 100 battery in regards to producing high kw even a 50% SOC. At first they told me I was getting a 100 battery but then said they happened to find a new V3 battery instead at the last minute.
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If they're converting it to a P90DL, and it is a V3, you should, as I believe the Pyro-Fuse is part of the battery assembly.
If it is the V3, with the new Pyro-Fuse, make sure to request that they update the software to utilize the extra available power.
Then verify it yourself to know for sure. You can use PowerTools (iOS App) or someone with a TDC adapter could scan the CANBus for you.

Any refreshed model will have at least V2 battery and the one's with a manufacture date closer to 2017 will have V3 battery.
 
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My P85DL needs it’s battery replacing... It is being replaced with a 90DL battery. Am I right In assuming this will be a v3 battery? Can I therefore expect more performance? ...
you won't know until you see the battery number. also, a p85d (ludicrous) has a 1500 amp fuse so, unless they upgrade the fuse to 1600 amps, you wouldn't see v3 performance.
If they're converting it to a P90DL, and it gets a V3, you should [expect more performance], as I believe the Pyro-Fuse is part of the battery assembly.
If it is the V3, with the new Pyro-Fuse, make sure to request that they update the software to utilize the extra available power.
Then verify it yourself to know for sure. You can use PowerTools (iOS App) or someone with a TDC adapter could scan the CANBus for you.
Any refreshed model will have at least V2 battery and the one's with a manufacture date closer to 2017 will have V3 battery.
@bp1000 doesn't have a 'refresh model', he has a P85DL. The SC is replacing his defunct battery with a 90kWh battery.

That being the case, we don't know what they're putting in it yet.
 
The battery cells need to be balanced is what you are referring too and the only way to know what your accurate max range is, is by doing several 100% charges in a row, like 3 lets say. And again just like the BMS doesn't let you drain the battery completely, it also does not let you charge to 100% only around 95%. So when it is 100% SOC it is actually closer to 95%, which would prevent the battery from ever reaching a true 100% charge thus not having the same negative effects of a actual 100% charge. What I am explaining to do here is for owners who have experienced a lot of battery degradation who never charge to 100% to do so asap and see how much their range goes up after doing it, so they have a real idea of how much degradation has actually occurred. The only way to really know that all the cells are being charged would be too charge to 100% occasionally even tho Tesla says the BMS rotates them already but I don't believe you would have too charge to 100% in order to find out the accurate range if that were true. Now lately they say to charge to 90% because this allows the BMS to rotate the uncharged cells better apparently allowing the uncharged cells to be charged on your next charge. So basically you could get an accurate range by doing 90% charges and can do 100% charge occasionally just to make sure that all the cells are being balanced and let you to see exactly how much battery degradation has actually occurred. When doing 100% it is best if you do not leave it at a 100% for a prolonged time. This is true especially if it was really a true 100% charge however it is not and is closer to 95%. Just like Apple cuts the battery short of a 100% charge with their cell phones (99% is max Apple allows cell phones to be charged) Tesla has their BMS do the same, preventing the battery from ever reaching 100% on full charge and keeps it from going to 0%, even when it dies. Also there have been several owners who only charged to 80% for long periods of time or the entire time before deciding to charge too 100% in order to raise the range so it could be accurate, with no success in adding any mileage by doing so. This makes me think that if you do not charge too 100% charge on occasion then you will lose more range than those that do. There is one owner who charged his model s to 100% every time and after 100k miles he had 5% degradation compared to 12% degradation that Tesla has stated is the average after 100K miles. So he had 7% more range (5% loss) than what Tesla said would be considered average (12% loss) after 100K miles.

So the BMS is not a perfect system that needs to be basically re-calibrated every once in a while with a full charge in order to get a accurate reading on your range. Also common sense should tell you why Tesla really doesn't want you too charge to a 100%. If you have a performance model s with ludicrous than charging to 100% is going to allow you to pull the max amps/kw (In ludicrous + or ludicrous max battery) which in turn can cause battery damage leading to a replacement. Most of us who bought a performance model s did so because we wanted a car that had the ability to accelerate faster than almost any exotic car. So we want to have are car in ludicrous all the time otherwise we would have just got one without. So knowing that this is when the (100% SOC) battery can have the most damaged caused I would assume Tesla knows that. So obviously they don't want you to be ruining batteries that they will have to pay for under their warranty! So they would want to deter owners from doing this which would be done by telling you that charging to 100% will cause the most battery degradation. Which isn't true based on data from owners who have been ( charging to 100% ) in posts on here and other forums. What it can cause is for the battery to have some type of failure ( ie; overheating from excessive power from max battery/ludicrous +) that would in turn effect the performance of the battery as far as kw/hp but did not effect range in my case. My range was still around 268-269 but the battery suffered a huge loss of performance (440-450kw) which is covered under their warranty opposed to battery degradation which is not. So assuming Tesla isn't being completely honest which they have never done before LMAO, I would not believe everything they say especially in regards to charging their batteries. They clearly don't mind hearing how much battery degradation any owner is experiencing because they do not have to cover that under warranty especially since they can decide what is too much and what is not. However they cannot dispute the fact when performance is lost(kw/hp), as that is covered under warranty, all they can do is try to prevent you from causing such damage in the first place. Also if you do receive a new battery chances are it will be a better newer battery than what you previously had or even might be a higher battery, ie; getting a 90 instead of an 85 or 100 instead of a 90 which is what I almost got. Tesla stopped making all batteries besides the 100 and 75 so chances are you will end up with a higher battery that will be regulated by the software. So when it comes to the 100 battery we can look at the chart and see how much better it is at getting high kw/hp even when not charged at a 100%.

So instead of believing everything Tesla employees say (Jeffrey Dahns) I like to have some common sense and remember that Tesla has already been caught lying more so than not.The WHOLE reason of this entire POST is about them completely misleading and lying to buyers about the 2015-2016 P90DL battery. For example they also did a software update which basically limited all ludicrous batteries from pulling the amps/kw they once could. However they got caught doing this and had to change it back and even admit to performing the update that intentionally limited the power of all performance ludicrous model's s and x, saying that it was causing battery damage as their reasoning to the update. So I cannot believe what one of their employees is telling me to do without questioning their reasons, when their primary concern is not me but their company first and foremost.

So with having experience of trying these different charging ideas and experiencing almost no loss of range in my first battery. At 18k miles I had 1-2 miles of range lost (268-269 instead of 270). Now I have a new battery that has just been balanced from 270 to 272 miles of range. Also I am always driving in ludicrous, not max power always, but in ludicrous always. Only time I am not is when I am traveling anywhere that I have to stop more than once too charge. So what I due for my charging is too charge at 27-30 amps keeping it at 50% to 90% and than letting it drop to around 60 miles and charging to 100% every few weeks. If I end up needing a new battery again well guess what? It will most likely be a 100 battery which means I will be able to get much higher kw/hp at much lower SOC. I will also be able to charge to 100% SOC with no negative effects since it's a 100 battery instead of a 90. In the pics below you will see that a V2 can reach a max kw of about 495kw (501kw was highest recorded) and the V3 can get above 500kw consistently and I believe the highest I ever saw recorded was close to 530kw. I got mine up too 520kw right after the new V3 battery was installed, (part #1088792-00-A) I proceeded to charge to 100% and had it tested thru a vbox. I also have the power tools app which isn't 100% accurate but is still very good tool to see what kw you are getting. The highest mine showed on the power tools app was 509kw. I didn't do launch mode however just max power when I used my power tools app to get 509kw. The other V3 battery is part #1088790-00-A and hasn't been able to get as high of kw as the latter V3 battery. In the pic that shows the graph with 100 battery you can see that the 100 battery is capable of getting much higher kw even at a low SOC compared to the 90 battery. Which is why I was hoping to get a 100 battery instead that would have been limited by the software to a 90 battery but would still have the same performance capabilities as a 100 battery in regards to producing high kw even a 50% SOC. At first they told me I was getting a 100 battery but then said they happened to find a new V3 battery instead at the last minute.
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Do you wait until your inebriated to make these posts? I'm really kind of serious, you so clearly don't have an idea what you're talking about. Hey, you really need to study up before you go saying all these things. Most of the people on this forum have been here for a long time, and they know a lot of stuff. I don't think you're fooling too many people. Oh well, I guess it doesn't much matter. Welcome to the Tesla family anyway.
 
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Do you wait until your inebriated to make these posts? I'm really kind of serious, you so clearly don't have an idea what you're talking about. Hey, you really need to study up before you go saying all these things. Most of the people on this forum have been here for a long time, and they know a lot of stuff. I don't think you're fooling too many people. Oh well, I guess it doesn't much matter. Welcome to the Tesla family anyway.

Fooling anybody lol, with what presenting my actual experience and what other's have done in regards too charging etc. Since your the battery expert with 9 yrs of experience why don't you show us how amazing of a job you have done to keep your model s from having battery degradation. I would assume you would have the best range left of any other owner since you know exactly what works best. I have a friend with a 2016.5 P100D that only gets 285 miles of range on full charge with only 25k miles. He like most owners only charged his to 80% always and would charge at high amps and used superchargers regularly. He has tried charging to 100% recently to see if his range increased with no luck at all.

Charging to 100% will not "damage" a Tesla battery pack. If that were a possible outcome, the software would be designed to prevent doing it. I think the most degradation is caused when charging at high amps such as superchargers (Capable of 300amps). So instead of just saying what others have on these forums tells us exactly what's up since you are so experienced. You have 9 yrs of experience but have said nothing that hasn't been said before. Your just throwing out names, where is all the studies you have done in your 9 years? I would assume you have plenty of concrete data of your own to share in 9 yrs!
 
Do you wait until your inebriated to make these posts? I'm really kind of serious, you so clearly don't have an idea what you're talking about. Hey, you really need to study up before you go saying all these things. Most of the people on this forum have been here for a long time, and they know a lot of stuff. I don't think you're fooling too many people. Oh well, I guess it doesn't much matter. Welcome to the Tesla family anyway.

Please verify you credentials regarding your 9 yrs of experience LOL. After looking at your other posts it seems pretty clear your the only one trying to fool people here, claiming to have 9 yrs of experience. So if I am wrong please prove this experience you claim too have. Otherwise your more of just a troll than anything.
 
Charged EVs | Why is Tesla limiting the charging rate at Superchargers?

Hmm, Tesla limits the rate of superchargers to protect the battery. So just like I have been saying superchargers charging at high amps cause battery degradation and damage so much that Tesla limits the amps you can charge after using their superchargers X amount of times. Just like they did in the software update that limited the power due to it causing battery damage. The problem here for Tesla is the demand of owners wanting to be able to charge as quickly as possible. Which Tesla basically had to do regardless knowing that ultimately it was damaging the battery.

I think it will be very interesting when Porsche comes out with the mission e because they are claiming to be able to get a full charge in 15 minutes but will be done at 800V. I assume they will learn the hard way that this will damage the batteries extremely fast and will be paying to replace batteries at a record pace. LOL
 
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Charged EVs | Why is Tesla limiting the charging rate at Superchargers?

Hmm, Tesla limits the rate of superchargers to protect the battery. So just like I have been saying superchargers charging at high amps cause battery degradation and damage so much that Tesla limits the amps you can charge after using their superchargers X amount of times. Just like they did in the software update that limited the power due to it causing battery damage. The problem here for Tesla is the demand of owners wanting to be able to charge as quickly as possible. Which Tesla basically had to do regardless knowing that ultimately it was damaging the battery.

I think it will be very interesting when Porsche comes out with the mission e because they are claiming to be able to get a full charge in 15 minutes but will be done at 800V. I assume they will learn the hard way that this will damage the batteries extremely fast and will be paying to replace batteries at a record pace. LOL

Clearly I've offended you, I am sorry. Let me go over a few things.

I never said I was a battery expert, I said I had over 9 years in the battery charging field.

I've given you the name of a man who does not work for Tesla but who knows more about batteries than the two of us put together will ever know. You might also look up Jason Hughes AKA wk057, he has a lot to say about these things as well. There's a ton on these forms from him.

The study in Europe on battery degradation for Teslas is expensive, very scientific, and quite revealing. Ancidotal evidence is interesting but it is hardly conclusive, or scientific. A single case is not a study. It takes more than "me and my friend" to find out what's happening in the world. If it's all you've got for data, well then you have to work with it. But there's better ways to do studies for sure.

By the way, if you read my post at all you'd find out, in fact, our car is driven extremely hard. It still has decent degradation, but I don't pretend that I take care of my car at the rate that I think would be the best for the battery. I just use the car! And, I love it.

As far as Porsche goes, love their cars. But honestly I don't think they'll do as well as they're saying they will. Tesla's had cars that can drive long distances on battery power for over 6 years now. Porche has never put one on the road. Do you think they can develop the expertise Tesla has with hundreds of thousands of cars in the lab? I don't. But more power to them. They do make great cars, maybe they'll pull this off too. I honestly think Daimler is a much better bet this way but, I'll take anybody who's up to it. The Jaguar I pace is certainly a beautiful vehicle. Eventually everyone will make electric vehicles and then things will even out.
 
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... I think the most degradation is caused when charging at high amps such as superchargers (Capable of 300amps)...
I'm enjoying the conversation, and figured while we we're on the subject of concrete data, and sticking with good solid facts, I'd share that no current Tesla Superchargers are capable of 300A.

They can supply a continuous draw of 210A.

They can supply a 20 minute burst of 270A, after which it has to rest for 10 minutes.

SCS.jpg
 
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