P85D now comes without dual charger??

[m6bigdog]

How is it 'bait and switch' if they move a selectable option? No one is forcing you to buy that option (whether during manufacture or after delivery to be installed at the Service Center). Dual charging was never part of the basic configuration.

Never part of the Standard Equipment I said that... however offered as an option until 3/2/15.
It is bait and switch because they advertise options you register to select the options you desire and store the selected options in My Tesla and then the options are deleted without notice before you can order the car from the Design Studio.

 

[m6bigdog]

m6bigdig: You do realize dual chargers have nothing to do with Supercharging, right?

Where did anyone say they were including CHAdeMO adapters with the car? It might be worth stepping back and reevaluating what you think you were told and what you were actually told.

Not many people order the second charger so likely is more efficient to install it at the service center during final prep.

I am really confused about what is upsetting you so much. The options are still there and you still can order them. Where they are installed shouldn't matter. Might be worth canceling your order if you are upset by something you don't understand.

"CHAdeMO adapters" read reply #6!! All chargers at max capacity are necessary and I anticipate as more electric cars are available and the more charge ports are installed the higher AC currents will be installed as no one wants to be stuck charging for hours when the car could be equipped to save time, but maybe for you it more about cost than charge time, which is crazy since an electric car cost more than ICE+gas. So what happens when the battery is exhausted in 10 years and the MS is worth less than the battery to keep it on the road.

This whole post is getting pointless. If you like ordering a vehicle when the order process is not transparent and a moving target - Go For It.
"Upset about something I don't understand"!!! Arrogance is not pretty, so, let me help you understand why changing an options to an after-delivery accessary matters..
If it doesn't affect your actual cost or thinking, good for you, but telling me what matters is unbecoming for a community interested in changing the transportation technology!!

But first: It is more efficient by far to installed 2 identical 10kW chargers during the initial build - PERIOD.
It is that simple, Don't guess if you don't Know!! I know...and arguing this point is ridicules.
Reality, it most likely cost Tesla more in fees to the Credit Card company for the charger accessory order than it cost to install the charger as an option during production!!! So how smart is that?

2) It is all about actual cost!!
I can buy almost any car I want Cash. I don't need financing, I want financing for the advantages it provides.
My wealth is in investments not in an FDIC bank and when anyone with investments converts the investments making 15-20%+ on the dollar into cash there are Capital Gains implications, so it ends up costing them another 20 to 30%+ in state & fed taxes for the cash to pay for an item. You understand this?
Financing the total cost of the car at 1.88% over 60mo. only cost 2.5% total and that saves a ton of money and anything paid for in cash cost 20-30% above an beyond what Tesla wants for the item as an after-delivery accessary, not included in the financing - plus the money is no longer earning in an investment.

Therefore, I finance the full amount for the car with low interest rate financing which keeps my investments in place making 15-20% and I'm not forced to pay the Capital Gains taxes on the amount necessary to buy items cash, out of pocket. I assume that makes sense to you!!
So, for the second charger ($2000 +30%) and for the Wall Connector ($750 + 30%) no longer in the cost of the Tesla my actual cost is more like $3600+ and that money is no longer making 15-20% in an investment.
So, lets do the MATH:
Before Tesla deleted the charger options on 3/2/15, they were $1500 and $750 = $2250, so now I'll pay another 30% or $1350+ more and that alone increases the cost of the car another 1%+ and I getting nothing for it.
The dumb part is Tesla also gets nothing either, for their decision to move the cost from an option to after-delivery accessary.
Done...

 

[Lerxt]

Whatever happened to checking exactly what you are paying for before hitting "pay now"?

I think we can grant Tesla the right to change their sales website occasionally, being angry with Tesla over this is a bit much, if it happened to me i'd be annoyed at myself for not being diligent.

 

[cwerdna]

"CHAdeMO adapters" read reply #6!! All chargers at max capacity are necessary and I anticipate as more electric cars are available andthe more charge ports are installed the higher AC currents will be installed as no one wants to be stuck charging for hours when the car could be equipped to save time.

But first: It is more efficient by far to installed 2 identical 10kW chargers during the initial build - PERIOD.

You seem to WANT stuff but it sounds like you don't know what they're for and what good it might/might not do you.

You sound confused about the purpose of a 2nd on-board charger. It has nothing to do w/DC fast charging (CHAdeMO nor Supercharging)). It only enables faster charging when connected to an EVSE (J1772 or HPWC: Tesla Gear Shop Wall Connector when connected to an 80 amp or 100 amp or greater breaker: http://www.teslamotors.com/sites/default/files/downloads/charging_wall_connector.pdf, enabling charging at up to 64 amps or 80 amps, respectively).

There are some Tesla HPWCs deployed (I don't know their max amperage output, for most of them as it depends on the circuit it's connected to) but pretty much all public J1772 EVSEs only support 30 amp charging, at best between 6.24 and 7.2 kW, at best. Common commercial power is only 208 volts, not 240, hence the 6.24 kW (208 volts * 30 amps). A second on-board charger WILL NOT HELP on EVSEs 40 amps and below. Public J1772 EVSE that support over 40 amps are VERY rare.

Care to point me to a few 80 amp J1772 EVSEs or 80 amp HPWCs on PlugShare - EV Charging Station Map - Find a place to charge your car! that you plan to use?

As for the port I bolded, in the US, no mass market consumer EVs/PHEVs sold as new except for the Model S can even take advantage of an EVSE that's over 40 amps. NONE! The highest wattage OBCs are on Tesla-based vehicles (Model S, Rav4 EV, B-Class ED). The latter 3 have a single 10 kW OBC which can plug into very few public 40+ amp J1772 EVSEs. In most cases, on public EVSEs, they will max out at 30 amps (6.24 to 7.2 kW).

All other EVs/PHEVs have 3.3 kW to 7.2 kW OBCs (most maxing out a 6.6 kW), only. There still are plenty of 3.3 kW OBC cars being sold now. Hell, even GM decided (unfortunately) to go w/a lame 3.6 kW OBC on the next gen Volt instead of upgrading to 6.x to 7.2 kW OBC.

Can you support an 80 amp continuous load at your house? It'd require a 100 amp circuit.

As for "stuck for hour charging", where? Per Tesla Charging | Tesla Motors, w/the UMC at 240 volt @ 40 amps (50+ amp circuit required), you're projected to gain 29 miles per hour. Do you really drive that far that this isn't quick enough replenishment at home?

Maybe you should re-read some of the earlier replies.

 

[Newscutter]

I call Troll.

New poster, full of outrage, with questionable logic and understanding of the vehicle allegedly purchased... and the bait and switch is leading up to:

"...and that's why a dealership model would be better." (Product education, model years, yadda yadda yadda)

Bottom line:

Specs change on the website all the time. HOWEVER, when you put down a deposit and confirm your order, YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR regardless of changes made thereafter on the Design Studio-- even down to "obsolete" colors. The few times someone has been caught up on the downside, GIVEN A CHANCE, Tesla makes it right.

Your NEW profile indicates you're in the middle of Tesla country. If legitimately a prospective customer, take yourself to the nearest store (which might be the FACTORY in your case) and talk to a human. You mention great concern about the value of your time, so don't waste time talking with those of us who knew what we were buying-- go talk to Tesla yourself.

Then buy the car. Any configuration. And then come back and tell us how irrelevant all this seems after driving SpaceX's civilian model. :smile:

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

But first: It is more efficient by far to installed 2 identical 10kW chargers during the initial build - PERIOD.
It is that simple, Don't guess if you don't Know!! I know...and arguing this point is ridicules.
Reality, it most likely cost Tesla more in fees to the Credit Card company for the charger accessory order than it cost to install the charger as an option during production!!! So how smart is that?

It's smart for Tesla because it simplifies their production. Every car that has the 2nd charger required additional manufacturing. Since not everyone orders the 2nd charger, and because the pattern will not match with other options, the installation will lead to inconsistency in production and inconsistency leads to extra production costs.

More importantly, I am certain that Tesla is seeing and will see a dwindling proportion of buyers ordering the 2nd charger. It worth noting that they made the change around the same time that shipments of the CHAdeMO adapter had begun. With the expansion of the Supercharger network, the availability of the CHAdeMO adapter at relatively low cost, and the commitment of Nissan, Kia and German manufacturers to installation of DC charging, the value of 80A AC charging is being severely diminished overall.

I know It sucks for those like you who want the 80A AC charging, because it makes the 2nd charger more expensive for you, but I think that despite the use of the HPWC in Tesla's destination charging program, the writing's on the wall for fast AC. I think that to save space, Tesla won't even offer the 2nd charger in the Model 3.

The dumb part is Tesla also gets nothing either, for their decision to move the cost from an option to after-delivery accessary.

If Tesla didn't gain from it, Tesla wouldn't have done it. Try writing to Tesla or even tweeting @elonmusk to see if you can get feedback on why they changed it to be service-center installed.

 

[PaulusdB]

It was already suggested elsewhere that Tesla Motors could just as well put a second charger in every car, thus making it a service-center or OTA enabled option. Installation and material costs are small and if every fifth or so customer enables the second charger (eventually), they still come out a winner.

 

[m6bigdog]

Whatever happened to checking exactly what you are paying for before hitting "pay now"?

I think we can grant Tesla the right to change their sales website occasionally, being angry with Tesla over this is a bit much, if it happened to me i'd be annoyed at myself for not being diligent.

Now there is some big picture thinking. Simple and clueless. Blame the customer, you don't know what you want!!
I never said Tesla didn't have the right to change their product.
I said, as the customer they do not have the right to change the produced I'm buying, while I am actively making my purchase decision without notice. With that approach they are taking a non-refundable deposit on false pretenses.

Yep, it was my fault, I didn't read every word, study every standard equipment and option selected against my photographic memory of the Design Studio webpage before I submitted my purchase and I'm disappointed.

If you believe I did not do due diligence you are sorely mistaken. My profession is Electrical Engineering!! and the Design Studio selections and supporting equipment specs and documents require time to evaluate. After 40yrs. in the engineering world, this is one of few technology experiences where the spec document i.e., data sheet has no revision number or date of revision or a summary of recent changes/improvements to the product. This is an only on the internet experience.
Therefore, Changing the Design Studio without transparency for the recent or proposed product changes sets the buyer up for a big disappoint.

You can defend your corner of the Tesla sand box to a fault, but you can't make it better than it really is without listening and I can go to another sand box where the customer satisfaction and desired are considered and included in the purchase decision.
I assume that makes sense?

- - - Updated - - -

It was already suggested elsewhere that Tesla Motors could just as well put a second charger in every car, thus making it a service-center or OTA enabled option. Installation and material costs are small and if every fifth or so customer enables the second charger (eventually), they still come out a winner.

Alas, someone that understands economy of scale and manufacturing variance vs product functionality.
Now, just include on the Design Studio a reference to the upcoming changes to the options & pricing, recent changes and some dates and the customer purchase experience and satisfaction factor would be helped immensely.

 

[SFOTurtle]

How did Tesla change the product you were buying while you were actively buying?? Dual chargers have *always* been an extra option for the car. It's been that way since Day 1, and that's still the case today. It is an option (and an increasingly seldom selected option as Superchargers roll out more and more). Nothing has changed.

You seem to be operating under the mistaken impression that by not ordering the dual charger option, it will somehow impact you, but you've never said why. Numerous posters have pointed out that it appears that you think you need the extra on-board charger for Supercharging speed and explained why that is wrong, and you've never responded to any of those.

I don't get what you're complaining about. You didn't order the dual chargers at any time during the process, whether before Tesla changed its design studio or after (but again, dual chargers were always optional in every iteration of the design studio). Now you apparently want them (for reasons unknown), and you can still add them. What exactly is your complaint?

 

[dsm363]

Now there is some big picture thinking. Simple and clueless. Blame the customer, you don't know what you want!!
I never said Tesla didn't have the right to change their product.
I said, as the customer they do not have the right to change the produced I'm buying, while I am actively making my purchase decision without notice. With that approach they are taking a non-refundable deposit on false pretenses.

Yep, it was my fault, I didn't read every word, study every standard equipment and option selected against my photographic memory of the Design Studio webpage before I submitted my purchase and I'm disappointed.

If you believe I did not do due diligence you are sorely mistaken. My profession is Electrical Engineering!! and the Design Studio selections and supporting equipment specs and documents require time to evaluate. After 40yrs. in the engineering world, this is one of few technology experiences where the spec document i.e., data sheet has no revision number or date of revision or a summary of recent changes/improvements to the product. This is an only on the internet experience.
Therefore, Changing the Design Studio without transparency for the recent or proposed product changes sets the buyer up for a big disappoint.

You can defend your corner of the Tesla sand box to a fault, but you can't make it better than it really is without listening and I can go to another sand box where the customer satisfaction and desired are considered and included in the purchase decision.
I assume that makes sense?

Did you not read what you were buying? Did it say dual chargers in your purchase agreement then Tesla took it away? A single charger was always standard. Only the Signature series has dual chargers as standard and that was over 2 years and 85,000 cars ago. It has nothing to do with a 'photographic memory' but comprehension. When you finalized your order was dual charging listed or not?

Since you are an electrical engineer I can assume you understand the difference between AC and DC charging? You seem to be mixing them up.

'Actively making' your purchase means what? I can put a product in my Amazon cart for 6 months then when I go to buy it the price can go up. Should I be upset? If Tesla changed things after your finalized your order then yes, be upset.

 

[dsm363]

You seem to be operating under the mistaken impression that by not ordering the dual charger option, it will somehow impact you, but you've never said why. Numerous posters have pointed out that it appears that you think you need the extra on-board charger for Supercharging speed and explained why that is wrong, and you've never responded to any of those.

I don't get what you're complaining about. You didn't order the dual chargers at any time during the process, whether before Tesla changed its design studio or after (but again, dual chargers were always optional in every iteration of the design studio). Now you apparently want them (for reasons unknown), and you can still add them. What exactly is your complaint?

Exactly. He has never address why lack of the second charger he didn't order limits DC charging. I don't get it. Has nothing to do with defending Tesla's 'sandbox' as he said.

- - - Updated - - -

"CHAdeMO adapters" read reply #6!! All chargers at max capacity are necessary and I anticipate as more electric cars are available and the more charge ports are installed the higher AC currents will be installed as no one wants to be stuck charging for hours when the car could be equipped to save time, but maybe for you it more about cost than charge time, which is crazy since an electric car cost more than ICE+gas. So what happens when the battery is exhausted in 10 years and the MS is worth less than the battery to keep it on the road.

This post?

Summary:

Tesla made changes to their production line to optimize (reduce) the combinations of ordered options. This change should reduce the variety of cars and processes that build out the car, and therefore provide faster delivery to you and others who ordered.

New procedures were made available so local service center can install the second "dual" charger. Formerly this was a much more expensive after purchase option, but now the price was dropped by almost half, equivalent to what the cost was built into the car. This provides more flexibility to existing and new owners who may not have a need for dual chargers.

Dual chargers are only necessary to charge on AC 240V J1772 plugs or the HPWC which can feed the 80A needed. Most public charging is <= 40A, so the dual charger option is less often utilized.

Also, Tesla began shipping a CHADEMO DC charge adaptor which reduces again the need for dual chargers.


Make sure to enjoy your time with the car, and remember, these are first world problems. ;-)

- - - Updated - - -

If you order the dual chargers to be installed at the service center and an HPWC on the original order don't you pay for them at the same time? He seems to be upset about not being able to finance the add on options.

 

[m6bigdog]

How did Tesla change the product you were buying while you were actively buying?? Dual chargers have *always* been an extra option for the car. It's been that way since Day 1, and that's still the case today. It is an option (and an increasingly seldom selected option as Superchargers roll out more and more). Nothing has changed.

You seem to be operating under the mistaken impression that by not ordering the dual charger option, it will somehow impact you, but you've never said why. Numerous posters have pointed out that it appears that you think you need the extra on-board charger for Supercharging speed and explained why that is wrong, and you've never responded to any of those.

I don't get what you're complaining about. You didn't order the dual chargers at any time during the process, whether before Tesla changed its design studio or after (but again, dual chargers were always optional in every iteration of the design studio). Now you apparently want them (for reasons unknown), and you can still add them. What exactly is your complaint?

WOW, and you have a 60kW Tesla, so now you are judging my desire to optimize the functionality of a vehicle technology fraught with challenges and obstacles by adding a second 10kW charger that you see no value in!
Try reading my OP and my replies for actual content and your questions and sarcasm will be answered.

Beyond that, there are 3 types of charging opportunities, I assume, since 2013, you have figured this out.
1- Supercharging, 2- In-route non-supercharger and 3- Destination/Home charging.
Supercharging is not a subsitite for slow rate destination charging to reach maximum range capacity.
Also, the faster the battery is initially charged the more time there is for low rate charging that maximizes battery range capacity. That is rechargeable battery science and something you want to know while on a road trip and something I will plan for while on the road should I even choose to use the Tesla for a road trip.
So personally, while destination and in-route charging may not always have a high rate 20kW capability why would I want to sit on my hands for as much as twice as long waiting for a charge because I'm too cheap or forward thinking to have a 20kW installed during build. Think about it!!

As for the after-delivery install. Maybe you have time to waste driving to a SC or lounging in the SC waiting room. I don't have the time nor the desire to use my time that way and there is no reasonable reason to inconvenience me for a dual charger install just because Tesla thinks it is cute to change the Design Studio without notice. Also, there is the actual cost of making the Dual charger and Wall Connector purchase outside of vehicle financing as I described in my reply.
What works for you is objectionable to me, I'd rather buy another BMW M6 than purchase a 60kW Tesla at half the cost; just the way the world is!

 

[siucity]

As for the after-delivery install. Maybe you have time to waste driving to a SC or lounging in the SC waiting room. I don't have the time nor the desire to use my time that way and there is no reasonable reason to inconvenience me for a dual charger install just because Tesla thinks it is cute to change the Design Studio without notice. Also, there is the actual cost of making the Dual charger and Wall Connector purchase outside of vehicle financing as I described in my reply.
What works for you is objectionable to me, I'd rather buy another BMW M6 than purchase a 60kW Tesla at half the cost; just the way the world is!

Assuming you order the Tesla and pick it up at a SC, you can probably purchase and ask them to install the 2nd charger before you go pick up the car. Time problem solved. As for cost, nothing you can do about it now. Everything has an opportunity cost. However, some people have financed more than 100% of the cost of the car. Maybe that is something you could have looked at.

 

[mknox]

Dual chargers are practically mandatory in my neck of the woods with the proliferation of 70 and 80 amp J1772 stations. It can literally cut my charging time in half. It was an option in the Design Studio when I purchased, but as others have said, it seems likely the Service Center could install it before the car is even delivered. I would further bet that it could be included in the purchase financing of you ask. I've bought lots of cars in the past with "dealer installed" accessories (trailer package, roof rack rails etc) that were included in the financing.

 

[CalDreamin]

Assuming you order the Tesla and pick it up at a SC, you can probably purchase and ask them to install the 2nd charger before you go pick up the car. Time problem solved.

Good suggestion.

The OP is in San Ramon, which is about 30 minutes from the Fremont Service Center and Factory. I suggest a delivery at the Fremont SvC, with arrangements ahead of time to have the second charger installed there prior to delivery. I recommend doing the factory tour also, it's well worth it.

 

[dsm363]

WOW, and you have a 60kW Tesla, so now you are judging my desire to optimize the functionality of a vehicle technology fraught with challenges and obstacles by adding a second 10kW charger that you see no value in!
Try reading my OP and my replies for actual content and your questions and sarcasm will be answered.

Beyond that, there are 3 types of charging opportunities, I assume, since 2013, you have figured this out.
1- Supercharging, 2- In-route non-supercharger and 3- Destination/Home charging.
Supercharging is not a subsitite for slow rate destination charging to reach maximum range capacity.
Also, the faster the battery is initially charged the more time there is for low rate charging that maximizes battery range capacity. That is rechargeable battery science and something you want to know while on a road trip and something I will plan for while on the road should I even choose to use the Tesla for a road trip.
So personally, while destination and in-route charging may not always have a high rate 20kW capability why would I want to sit on my hands for as much as twice as long waiting for a charge because I'm too cheap or forward thinking to have a 20kW installed during build. Think about it!!

As for the after-delivery install. Maybe you have time to waste driving to a SC or lounging in the SC waiting room. I don't have the time nor the desire to use my time that way and there is no reasonable reason to inconvenience me for a dual charger install just because Tesla thinks it is cute to change the Design Studio without notice. Also, there is the actual cost of making the Dual charger and Wall Connector purchase outside of vehicle financing as I described in my reply.
What works for you is objectionable to me, I'd rather buy another BMW M6 than purchase a 60kW Tesla at half the cost; just the way the world is!

Again you dodge any questions. What was changed during your 'active' buying process? Dual chargers were never standard and always an option. If you buy them (which you apparently didn't) then they are installed in final prep so you aren't waiting anywhere.

If you think you are explaining how charging works to people who have been driving Teslas and electric cars (some for over 4 years) I think you are missing the big picture.

And yet again how does Tesla changing the Design studio have anything to do with anything? Dual charging was an option and still is an option. You either bought it or you didn't and you didn't. Tesla never promised it came with dual 10kW chargers and it wasn't on your order that you clicked 'finalize' on, was it? Can you answer that at least? Was the second charger on your build order?

You still haven't explained how having a second 10kW charger impacts CHAdeMO charging or Supercharging as you stated earlier in the thread.

I personally would cancel your order as you seem confused about the product and what you even ordered. Since your car isn't even delivered yet are you saying you can't add the second charger and include that in the financing?

 

[bonnie]

Think you're all wasting your breath here (or rather, bits on a screen ). The OP is willing to buy another vehicle because he wants to roll the costs of a wall charger and dual charging option into the total purchase price. He doesn't want to talk to his delivery specialist to see if it is possible. He feels Tesla moved things around just to be 'cute', as he says, and he doesn't appreciate the cuteness. He can't have his time wasted by sitting in a service center, even though he could arrange to have those things done before he picks it up. Don't you all see???? He is an electrical engineer!

Thank god we didn't get into color choices.

I think I've covered it.

 

[FlasherZ]

He is an electrical engineer!

I stayed in a Holiday Inn Express a few weeks ago.

 

[dsm363]

With 40 years of experience who is confusing AC and DC charging. Got it.

 

[TexasEV]

So what we're talking about, when you subtract all the overheated language, is the opportunity cost of paying $2750 cash rather than borrowing it at a low interest rate and investing the $2750. Even for those who have to scrape money together to purchase one of the lesser expensive versions, this would seem to be a nonissue.