P85D motor hp controversy starts also to show in U.S. media

[Vitold]

That's not the issue. No Tesla makes 691hp under any circumstances, ever. Period.

The recent blog post elludes to the fact it *could*, given a larger battery. But no such battery exists for purchase, nor on the horizon.

As for how the car performs, it makes it's 0-60 numbers all day long right down to 50% SOC. But those numbers use a different system than the previous Tesla models (1ft rollout). Nothing inherently wrong with that, but not something that was disclosed up front to buyers.

As for what they can..... No idea. Everyone won't end up happy whatever the outcome.

According to calculator below 1350A draw would result close to 690HP. Given that pyro-fuse blows at 1500A there's a chance for HP output to get higher.

 

[nwdiver]

That's not the issue. No Tesla makes 691hp under any circumstances, ever. Period.

Are we sure about that? My understanding was that the new 'smart' fuses with Ludicrous mode enabled 1500amps to be drawn from the battery... 1500a x 400v = 600kW; 600kW = 804HP.

I agree that maintaining 400v while pulling 1500 amps would be challenging... which is why that would likely only occur under absolutely ideal conditions.

 

[stopcrazypp]

According to calculator below 1350A draw would result close to 690HP. Given that pyro-fuse blows at 1500A there's a chance for HP output to get higher.

The internal resistance and voltage sag of the battery will mean that it won't be at 380V when you draw 1300A. This had been discussed at length in other threads. And Straubel's explanation makes it clear their "motor power" rating standard does not include the battery.

 

[Andyw2100]

Are we sure about that? My understanding was that the new 'smart' fuses with Ludicrous mode enabled 1500amps to be drawn from the battery... 1500a x 400v = 600kW; 600kW = 804HP.

I agree that maintaining 400v while pulling 1500 amps would be challenging... which is why that would likely only occur under absolutely ideal conditions.

It's not clear how close to the 1500 amp limit Tesla is going to let things get, even with the new 1500 amp fuse. We know they keep things pretty far from the 1300 amp limit of the 1300 amp fuse now.

 

[Vas Deferens]

..... Those of us upset about this issue believe we were misled, and that we did not get all that we paid for. Some people are OK with that. Perhaps you would be. I am not. Others agree with me, and also want to see the wrong righted....

Well then instead of coming into here with the same rhetoric, why not go through the proper legal channels to see the "wrong righted", and to obtain your damages for "not getting all that you paid for"??????

Some of you guys are starting to sound like a broken record. The time is long over for "talking" if you want this "grave injustice" rectified. And I'm sure that there are plenty of lawyers in New York who would gladly take your case.

So now the "question" becomes, "do you really want to see what you claim to be a wrong righted, or do you just want to grind your axe"????

 

[vgrinshpun]

That's not the issue. No Tesla makes 691hp under any circumstances, ever. Period.

The recent blog post elludes to the fact it *could*, given a larger battery. But no such battery exists for purchase, nor on the horizon.

As for how the car performs, it makes it's 0-60 numbers all day long right down to 50% SOC. But those numbers use a different system than the previous Tesla models (1ft rollout). Nothing inherently wrong with that, but not something that was disclosed up front to buyers.

As for what they can..... No idea. Everyone won't end up happy whatever the outcome.

Well, the real issue is that Tesla **did not claim that they make 691hp**. They claimed "691 motor hp", and, according to the only Regulation pertinent to EVs, this is exactly what they provided in P85D.


- - - Updated - - -

Where is your evidence to support your claim that it is a small group?

And I reject your claim that anyone misinterpreted anything.

Furthermore, if this "small group" misinterpreted Tesla's advertising, so did pretty much every writer and editor involved in writing and editing the P85D stories at every publication that wrote about the P85D. And there were not a small number of those.

Thank you for your clarification, although using word "claim" seems to be somewhat ominous, let's tone it down...

My apologies for using imprecise wording. I am going to revise my post to read:

"It is just so happened that some P85D owners misinterpreted information put out by Tesla and small group of them (about 75) felt strong enough to write a letter to Tesla."

in lieu of

"It is just so happened that small group of P85D owners misinterpreted information put out by Tesla."

Please let me know if you have any clarifications to the interesting fact I shared in my post, namely that P85D *does not* have less hp than advertised. They advertised motor horsepower, exactly as pertinent Regulation ECE R85 *directs* manufacturers to do. I would be curious to know if you can acknowledge this fact.

 

[perkiset]

You want to hear something interesting? I didn't give Tesla close to $150,000 to "advance the cause." I gave them that amount of money to give me the car they advertised. They didn't. End of story.

So it doesn't accelerate at the rate for which you purchased it?

Look man, I get your point. If I purchased an electric car, only to find out that it was ICE, I'd be pissed off. But you're talking about an esoteric number that in the end has no discernible effect on the most important benchmark. This is precisely why Apple stopped talking about machine specs a long time ago. Does the machine respond quickly? Who cares if it's got a 286 in it (being hyperbolic on purpose).

I also get the notion of "doing it ethically" but don't you think that your push against Tesla specifically, and something as specific and detaily is just a bit overblown vis-a-vis the market in general? Are you this upset at everything you purchase? Because I'd doubt that many products would be able to live up to such scrutiny.

I'm not claiming any specific "cause" except the growth of their business. Maybe your insistence will make Tesla take note - that'd be great. But it also whips people into a frenzy ... there's blood in the water! This is a very litigious country and an awful lot of people want to get on the bandwagon of a fight make some flow off the backs of someone else (I'm am specifically NOT pointing a finger at you here). I'm not sure that this actually helps anything at all.

I want Tesla to succeed to. But I want them to do it ethically. Perhaps you're the one that needs the modicum of perspective. Those of us upset about this issue believe we were misled, and that we did not get all that we paid for. Some people are OK with that. Perhaps you would be. I am not. Others agree with me, and also want to see the wrong righted.

What does "righted" mean to you? Money? Buy the car back? Disgrace in the press? Yet another embarrassment for a company that is clearly trying to do something significant, but is definitely stretched too thin?

And with the exception of the number, what exactly does mislead mean? Does the car not perform the way you expected it to? This is where I am really confused: It accelerates at the rate that was advertised. Did you think that, because of the number, it should actually be able to perform better than what was advertised? Honestly I am completely confused about how this is really an issue, if the car performs as expected when you rolled it off the lot. With the exception of having a number out there that you wanted to see, if Tesla never claimed HP but it still accelerated at the same rate, would you be satisfied then?

Actually there's been very little overlap between the group being vocal over the HP issue and the group being vocal over the AP issue, with one notable exception that I can think of.

Fair point. Looking back I thought it was larger - it is less significant than I had remembered. Yes, there's one very clear overlap but others are spotty.

 

[vgrinshpun]

You want to hear something interesting? I didn't give Tesla close to $150,000 to "advance the cause." I gave them that amount of money to give me the car they advertised. They didn't. End of story.

I know that you are getting very upset when I point this out, but this is *not* the end of the story, although I do understand the reasons why you want to end here.

The fact is that they did give you the car they advertised, having 691 motor hp and matching 0 to 60 mph acceleration of the legendary McLaren F1.

I want Tesla to succeed to. But I want them to do it ethically. Perhaps you're the one that needs the modicum of perspective. Those of us upset about this issue believe we were misled, and that we did not get all that we paid for. Some people are OK with that. Perhaps you would be. I am not. Others agree with me, and also want to see the wrong righted.

I am curious, how can you continue to say that Tesla misled the owners? Saying misled implies intent, but I think it is clear now that situation is somewhat different - as I posted before, some P85D owners misinterpreted information put out by Tesla.

You seem to think that other posters should present evidence to back up what they post. So I think it would be fair to ask you to refrain from repeatedly posting that P85D owners were misled. It is not completely accurate and rather inflammatory.

As for not getting what you paid for, I would like to point out another interesting fact.

The gain in 0 to 60mph acceleration of Audi RS7 vs. Audi S7 is exactly the same as Model S P85D vs. 85D, except that it costs 30% more than the performance upgrade you get with Tesla ($26K vs. $20K). Would you agree that saying that you did not get what you paid for is not reasonable given that you misinterpreted information put out by Tesla *and* the performance boost you've got as compared to 85D is actually a bargain as far as what the market for these types of performance upgrades actually is?

 

[thegruf]

There's a number of P85D hp threads now, and much has been discussed over and over.

One thing I do see is new ppl joining in the debate that were not around here when the original 691hp was advertised by Tesla.

Tesla originally advertised the 691hp without qualification, so to anybody ordering a vehicle at that time (late 2014) it is quite understandable they can feel misled and upset.
Tesla have subsequently modified their wording of both the 691hp to "motor power" and acceleration to include the "Motor Trend standard" (sorry but lol at that one) , really the commonly used 1 foot rollout at dragstrips esp in the US.
Note however though that the 1 foot rollout only applied to the Pxx models making entirely impossible for that average user to compare eg the 90D with the P90D.
This remains a mess, specs either with or without rollout for all models please.

So why is 691hp important if the car meets is 0-60 time (now qualified with the rollout).

Well basically up to 30mph the car is traction limited, at 30-60mph torque dominates and progressively with speed the overall hp becomes the relevant figure.

So what owners purchasing what they believed to be a 691hp car expected was a car that delivered insane 0-60 - it does,
but also storming passing power at 30+ and 50+mph - it doesn't deliver as could reasonably by expected (given the nature of ev single geared drivetrain) as in reality it is limited to ~525hp.

So although Tesla never published passing speed (eg 30-70mph) figures, prospective owners, even informed ones, would quite reasonably have expected passing performance that simply was not delivered.
This a real observable difference of iro 20% reduced passing performance that is readily observable in daily driving, not just a track/strip timing sheet.
In reality P85D passing performance is within a gnats of the 85D.

Tesla's strategy/legal advice appears to have been to progressively fudge the figures since their original publication (and press headline grabbing 691hp rating) and as far as I can see they continue to do this.

It remains very telling that the Ludicrous upgrade delivers essentially what the P85D was originally claimed to do.

My chip in this game?
Well I frankly sussed Tesla when I decided to purchase, did the math and held off the P85D as I didn't believe the battery/fuse would deliver what they claimed, and went for the 85D instead.
So I consider myself lucky (well except for the fact the UK guys messed the order up and I am still waiting!)

 

[vgrinshpun]

I believe they always used 'motor hp' for P85D, with the exception of Denmark where the site stated 691hp performance due to error in translation.

 

[WarpedOne]

Andyw2100:

You want to hear something interesting? I didn't give Tesla close to $150,000 to "advance the cause." I gave them that amount of money to give me the car they advertised. They didn't. End of story.They didn't. End of story.

Why are you not suing then?
If you are right, you win in half and hour including coffee break.
Why all this letters and wasted time, when you have such a clear winning case on hands?
You did not get what was advertised? That is a fraud. Go and take them to court. Now, yesterday.

Or stop spreading accusations that have nothing in common with reality.
Your above statement is pure lie.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Tesla originally advertised the 691hp without qualification, so to anybody ordering a vehicle at that time (late 2014) it is quite understandable they can feel misled and upset.
Tesla have subsequently modified their wording of both the 691hp to "motor power" and acceleration to include the "Motor Trend standard" (sorry but lol at that one) , really the commonly used 1 foot rollout at dragstrips esp in the US.

This is incorrect. Tesla has always referred to "691 hp motor power" on their website. They have done so since the October 2014 launch until they removed the combined number in March-April 2015 (when the 691 hp thread was started questioning the number). It should be noted that during that period the only numbers advertised were "motor power" numbers, even for the single motor models.
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...91HP/page119?p=1115469&viewfull=1#post1115469

The only exception found so far is the Denmark case, where a bad translation caused "hp motor power" to be translated to "hk ydeevne" (which meant "hp performance"). There is no evidence that any other country saw a 691 hp number that did not have the "motor power" qualifier or had a bad translation that would be interpreted differently.

Motor power was not something Tesla came up with recently.

 

[Andyw2100]

I appreciate your willingness to really want to understand where I'm coming from, so I'll try to answer your questions. I've said a lot of what I'm going to say before, but there's no reason to think that you would have seen everything I've written. (That's basically my disclaimer for anyone who may have who would criticize me for repeating myself.)

So it doesn't accelerate at the rate for which you purchased it?

The acceleration from a stop is phenomenal. It literally makes my wife feel ill. If I'm going to show the car off and do a launch for someone, my wife can't be in the car. On several occasions this has resulted in her standing on the side of the road as I do a launch or three for someone who had not experienced it before. The car never disappoints in this respect.

And to be honest, I don't know that I have the experience to evaluate the acceleration at higher speeds. I've said many times that were it not for what others have written, I would never have known there was an issue.

On the other hand, I --DID-- know that I was buying a really powerful car. I knew how happy people were with the performance of the P85, and I heard Elon Musk say during the D announcement, which I watched many times before ordering, that the P85D would have "half again as much power" as the P85. So while the numbers didn't mean anything to me, since the P85D was my first sports car and I was by no means a sports car enthusiast, the concept of a car that was going to be 50% more powerful than a car that I knew people were thrilled with --DID-- mean something to me.

So now, knowing that Tesla did not deliver all they promised is upsetting to me. The issue was just amplified when Tesla announced the Ludicrous upgrade, which to me, and many of us, seems to be a way to charge us for making the car more like it was supposed to be when it was originally delivered.

I, like many of the P85D early adopters, didn't say a whole lot of anything when Tesla released the car without torque sleep, but failed to mention that, leaving us wondering for quite a while why the cars weren't getting the efficiency they were supposed to get. I really didn't complain a heck of a lot over the fact that my car was delivered without the Next Gen seats I had paid for, and that I only received them five months later, with not a penny's worth of compensation for the inconvenience. Both of those issues were eventually corrected, and I was willing to give Tesla a pass for the time in which the issues persisted.

This issue, on the other hand, just feels wrong to me.

I've used an analogy about wine in a restaurant in the past. I'll dig that one up if you like, because I believe it is appropriate. But here's a new one, to illustrate the point that I don't think it's fair to say that if you can't tell the difference, why care?

If you've ever shopped for a reasonably high end diamond engagement ring you know about the 4 C's--Carat, Cut, Color, and Clarity. Carat is the size, which you can see, to an extent. Cut refers to the shape of the diamond--round, rectangular, etc.--but there is also a quality component in the cut as well. Color actually for the typical white diamond really refers to a lack of color--the less yellow the better. And clarity refers to the imperfections (or lack thereof) in the stone.

I'd be willing to bet that unless you have training in this field if you were in the market for a diamond in the 1-1.5 carat range, and in the $25,000-$35,000 range, someone could easily show you a $25,000 larger diamond that would look better to you than a $35,000 smaller one. In other words, you would not be able to get even a reasonably good idea of the value by just looking at the diamond.

Take this a step further. You decide to pay $35,000 for a diamond that you believe to have x,y, and z characteristics. You find out later that the diamond doesn't actually have those characteristics. You can't see a difference. Are you upset?

That's kind of where I'm coming from.

I really like to get what I pay for. This is less important to me, obviously, when I'm buying a $20 item on Amazon than it is when I'm spending $140,000 on a car. In the latter situation, I REALLY want to get every penny's worth.

I also get the notion of "doing it ethically" but don't you think that your push against Tesla specifically, and something as specific and detaily is just a bit overblown vis-a-vis the market in general? Are you this upset at everything you purchase? Because I'd doubt that many products would be able to live up to such scrutiny.

See above. Clearly the amount spent on the P85D is a factor. But I generally do expect to get what I pay for, yes.

What does "righted" mean to you? Money? Buy the car back? Disgrace in the press? Yet another embarrassment for a company that is clearly trying to do something significant, but is definitely stretched too thin?

As I said in the letter, I'm really not sure what "righted" is. It may be different for many people. Personally I'm pretty happy with the car, so I would not want to sell it back to Tesla. I'm pretty unhappy at the idea of shelling out an additional $7500 to get the car closer to the point that it was supposed to be originally. I think free Ludicrous upgrades would certainly be a good start. (This is probably where others would jump in and say either a) the ludicrous upgrades still won't get the car to the 691 HP originally promised, so what good is that, or b) the ludicrous upgrade is going to give you faster 0-60 performance than Tesla promised you, so how is that fair.) To those that would argue a), I'd say it should at least get reasonably close. To those that would argue b) I'd say that's not my concern. If Tesla has to provide a little more 0-60 performance than I paid for in order to come closer to providing the HP, that's fine.)

And with the exception of the number, what exactly does mislead mean? Does the car not perform the way you expected it to? This is where I am really confused: It accelerates at the rate that was advertised. Did you think that, because of the number, it should actually be able to perform better than what was advertised? Honestly I am completely confused about how this is really an issue, if the car performs as expected when you rolled it off the lot. With the exception of having a number out there that you wanted to see, if Tesla never claimed HP but it still accelerated at the same rate, would you be satisfied then?

I kind of addressed some of this above. I was expecting a car that felt like it had "half again as much power" as the P85. I had never driven a P85, so I wasn't going to be able to evaluate this myself. I'm basing my feelings on the feelings and findings of others, and on my own feelings of wanting to get all of what I pay for.

Fair point. Looking back I thought it was larger - it is less significant than I had remembered. Yes, there's one very clear overlap but others are spotty.

Thanks for acknowledging that.

 

[Wolfke]

+1 Andyw2100. If I knew the actual HP difference between a 85D and P85D was far less than advertised, I wouldn't have paid the 20.000 euro extra.

 

[dsm363]

I'm not sure how much of the "you know who you are" is directed at me, but I certainly have been vocal about this issue here, so I think it is safe to assume that I'm included in that group, so I'm going to respond.

If my goal had been to get this issue into the mainstream press I assure you I could have accomplished that goal a long time ago. As soon as I heard that the letter to Musk I was working on had been picked up outside TMC I slowed down my plans on that, resulting in the letter having fewer signatures than it otherwise would have, because I did what I could to keep the profile as low as possible from that point on. I didn't include pointers to the threads in any of the threads I had planned to, etc. I didn't comment on the article. I didn't post on the Tesla Forums. I basically just followed through on what I had started at that point.

It would have been very easy to send links from that "Learn Bonds" article to various journalists, including those that have a history of being anti-Tesla if the goal was to get the story into the main stream media. I did not do that, and it's pretty clear others here didn't either.

This issue didn't become more mainstream news until Tesla's blog post, which may or may not be a response to the letter.

Well bloggers and journalists read this forum too so of course it would get picked up at some point given the intensity of the debate and posts in this thread. It may not have been your intent but it was a natural course for this to follow. Tesla likely wouldn't have written their blog post if it weren't for the letter and the Danish response so the letter was important.

 

[darthy001]

Well bloggers and journalists read this forum too so of course it would get picked up at some point given the intensity of the debate and posts in this thread. It may not have been your intent but it was a natural course for this to follow. Tesla likely wouldn't have written their blog post if it weren't for the letter and the Danish response so the letter was important.

Well if the only positive thing to come out of Andys letter is that Tesla clarifies their advertising methods and add info on use of roll-out etc then at least something positive came out of this. Now its less likely that someone like Andy and me will feel the same after purchasing a top of the line Tesla in the future.

 

[dsm363]

Well if the only positive thing to come out of Andys letter is that Tesla clarifies their advertising methods and add info on use of roll-out etc then at least something positive came out of this. Now its less likely that someone like Andy and me will feel the same after purchasing a top of the line Tesla in the future.

And that would be fine but that's not what people seem to be seeking. They want things 'fixed' and the car to produce 691hp at the shaft or wheels which we know isn't going to happen probably even with the Ludicrous upgrade. So we are basically nowhere. No solution outside buying the car back will make people happy.

 

[Andyw2100]

And that would be fine but that's not what people seem to be seeking. They want things 'fixed' and the car to produce 691hp at the shaft or wheels which we know isn't going to happen probably even with the Ludicrous upgrade. So we are basically nowhere. No solution outside buying the car back will make people happy.

Now I think you're being a bit disingenuous with that post.

You have read an awful lot of these posts. I know that because you comment on an awful lot of them. So I'm pretty sure you realize that almost no one here--maybe even no one--has been expecting 691HP at the wheels. All along the discussion has been that the P85D doesn't make 691HP any where. Bringing "at the wheels" into it just makes people on my side look unreasonable, and like we don't understand drivetrain loss, etc.

You also know that there are solutions short of buying the car back that would make at least some people happy. I've stated, as have others, that we think the Ludicrous upgrade would be a big step in the right direction. (I agree there probably is not one single solution that would make everyone happy.)

I actually would not be happy with an offer to buy my car back. I want to keep my car. There is one aspect of it that I believe Tesla needs to correct, or come as close to correcting as possible. There's no need to throw the baby out with the bath water.

 

[darthy001]

And that would be fine but that's not what people seem to be seeking. They want things 'fixed' and the car to produce 691hp at the shaft or wheels which we know isn't going to happen probably even with the Ludicrous upgrade. So we are basically nowhere. No solution outside buying the car back will make people happy.

I stated early on that I mostly wished for Tesla to clean up their act, and I am close to letting this go. But the response from Teslas nordic pr-rep was so rude that I got annoyed all over again. Also dont want to let Andyw take all the heat now that wk057 was kicked out.

Too many people hammering on him to stay out of it for my taste. And too many people who conveniently "forget" aspects like the sneak implementation of roll-out on only one model in the entire range, sudden change of method for rating HP without any warning, the CEO saying the car has 691hp and Teslas sudden change in not correcting the press when they clearly went with the 691hp numbers without motor power.

Now seeing that the ludicrous upgrade might not even make a big difference I couldnt really care anymore about that either.




I do want my friggin nextgen rearseats though. 7months past delivery and Tesla is still not able to deliver...

 

[dsm363]

Now I think you're being a bit disingenuous with that post.

You have read an awful lot of these posts. I know that because you comment on an awful lot of them. So I'm pretty sure you realize that almost no one here--maybe even no one--has been expecting 691HP at the wheels. All along the discussion has been that the P85D doesn't make 691HP any where. Bringing "at the wheels" into it just makes people on my side look unreasonable, and like we don't understand drivetrain loss, etc.

You also know that there are solutions short of buying the car back that would make at least some people happy. I've stated, as have others, that we think the Ludicrous upgrade would be a big step in the right direction. (I agree there probably is not one single solution that would make everyone happy.)

I actually would not be happy with an offer to buy my car back. I want to keep my car. There is one aspect of it that I believe Tesla needs to correct, or come as close to correcting as possible. There's no need to throw the baby out with the bath water.

I said at the shaft or wheels. The Ludicrous upgrade wouldn't get you the 691 hp you need to not feel cheated or lied to though.