P85D Ludicrous Pre-Order Upgrade Available 9/25/15

[Niclas]

interested as well in the + suspension...
still amazed that Tesla does not mention any of this.

 

[sorka]

I think there's a little more going on. I believe the differences between the 85 and 90 are the anodes which help hold and deliver the charge and seem to hold a higher voltage for longer in use. These batteries don't seem to be static in that if you draw an amount of current from them, over a short time the voltage will drop and we probably all know that the power is volts x amps, so Ho,ding that voltage gives better sustained power output. My suspicion is with the 85, the anodes/battery can't deliver the sustained power (even for very short periods) to match the 90. I imagine the 90D will have an easier time delivering its performance compared to a P85D which is a worry for Tesla as it closes the gap.

The new fuse is interesting and reminds me of my days modelling 400kv electricity cables. We introduced a dynamic rating that basically said the recent historic load conditions created a temperature profile and you could load the cables up pretty high for short periods so long as you kept the temperature profile below a level. In effect you are not limited to a specific current, you are limited to a temperature. The old safe way was to pick a current that would mean you never reached the temperature. The new way which deliver a lot more short term capacity was to use a dynamic limit that would blow the temperature if sustained for a given period - the shorter the period, the higher the limit. I imagine the new tesla fuse is doing this type of thing and for safety sake or other limiting factors you still have an max upper limit and the management software is otherwise keeping the temperature down.

So the 90 helps retain more voltage
The fuse helps deliver peak current
you need both to get max performance and both change quickly

The nearest ICE analogy I can think of is a turbo which is almost the exact opposite, floor the car at low revs and there's no boost, as the revs slowly climb the boost increases and so does the power that then increases the speed which increases force if sir into the engine and the boost making it climb quicker. The dynamics of the whole system constantly change.

Now I understand some of the tail off at higher motor speed is because the motor characteristics change as it spins faster. My days of study on motor performance and back emf etc are too far back to be certain, but it's this back emf test deteriorates the higher speed performance. So have they got the gearing wrong? Would you be happier with a car that did 0-60 in 4s not 3s but had more go above 60mph by using longer gearing? It's a complicated juggling game as the performance changes much more significantly over time and speed than a petrol car. The tesla sweet spot is 0-60 maybe even only 0-40 and that grabs drag racing headlines. That's not to say it's not quick above, these things are all relative. The ICE cars you see tend to have sweet spots well above that which is why they all catch the tesla up eventually. Everyday driveability you could argue tesla have it right, I think I'd prefer the best performance to be at a little higher speed in the tesla.

I'm not sure how you're supporting your conclusions and I won't came right out and tell you that you're wrong without you first backing it up.

Silicon in LiIon battery anodes increases capacity at the expense of decreasing maximum C rate because Si increases internal resistance. Hobbyists know this because when they pick cells that have higher capacity due to Si, the maximum rate of discharge is lower. In addition, the cycle life with Si anodes is lower as well. These are the tradeoffs and you pick the cell that suits the application.

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20120012917.pdf

"Impedancespectroscopy measurements further demonstrate that the cell with the Si anode has a higher initial resistance than the cell with the graphite anode, and the SEI formation results in an increase in the cell internal resistance for both the Si and graphite anodes. "

This doesn't mean that the new cells haven't had this problem solved or that there was some other magical additive that to solve this issue, but with what we know now we can't assume that the performance of the battery cells are improved. It could just as well be that the 2/0 copper spine in the battery which already wasn't sufficient to handle 1300 amps was upgraded to a larger size conductor but that component of the battery is not accessible for replacing.

 

[billarnett]

Just signed up. I'm a bit annoyed that I had to read about it here first. Back in July I sent a note to my local service center requesting this and got a reply: "You have been added to our wait list for the Ludicrous mode upgrade". I would have thought that they would contact me when it became necessary to make a transaction via the Gear Store. But that small annoyance is dwarfed by my anticipation of such a significant upgrade

 

[shokunin]

How does one know if you've received a + suspsension versus a regular non+ suspension?

 

[marty2112]

Did you compare part numbers to find that out?

I pinged my DS. The new PDs only have modified bushings and dampers. Sway bars are the same across all cars. Staggered wheels are back. Need to get Lolo to give us his opinion on how much of the + is really there. Apparently these changes give the car a firmer ride, as for performance, still unknown to me.

I'm going to try an drive a new PDL next week.

 

[JonG]

I'm not sure how you're supporting your conclusions and I won't came right out and tell you that you're wrong without you first backing it up.

Silicon in LiIon battery anodes increases capacity at the expense of decreasing maximum C rate because Si increases internal resistance. Hobbyists know this because when they pick cells that have higher capacity due to Si, the maximum rate of discharge is lower. In addition, the cycle life with Si anodes is lower as well. These are the tradeoffs and you pick the cell that suits the application.

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20120012917.pdf

"Impedancespectroscopy measurements further demonstrate that the cell with the Si anode has a higher initial resistance than the cell with the graphite anode, and the SEI formation results in an increase in the cell internal resistance for both the Si and graphite anodes. "

This doesn't mean that the new cells haven't had this problem solved or that there was some other magical additive that to solve this issue, but with what we know now we can't assume that the performance of the battery cells are improved. It could just as well be that the 2/0 copper spine in the battery which already wasn't sufficient to handle 1300 amps was upgraded to a larger size conductor but that component of the battery is not accessible for replacing.

i haven't gone looking for the various threads and views I formed my opinion from but I struggle to see why tesla would be mandating the battery upgrade on new orders if it made the performance worse.

i'm more interested in peoples view on the gearing question.

 

[Pete90D]

I pinged my DS. The new PDs only have modified bushings and dampers. Sway bars are the same across all cars. Staggered wheels are back. Need to get Lolo to give us his opinion on how much of the + is really there. Apparently these changes give the car a firmer ride, as for performance, still unknown to me.

I'm going to try an drive a new PDL next week.

Booo! I asked about bushing and dampers when I upgraded. I'll call my DS and see what the upgrade cost would be like. However I am pretty happy with the car as it is. I'd probably want to ride in one to see how it feels

 

[AWDtsla]

I pinged my DS. The new PDs only have modified bushings and dampers. Sway bars are the same across all cars. Staggered wheels are back. Need to get Lolo to give us his opinion on how much of the + is really there. Apparently these changes give the car a firmer ride, as for performance, still unknown to me.

I'm going to try an drive a new PDL next week.

Good, the dampers need work... I hope they'll get better not just firmer.

The PDL I drove didn't appear to have different suspension the the 85D. Actually I pushed it hard enough to feel the ~150lbs weight loss in the rear end, with identical wheels/tires 85D handles a little bit better. However the PDL was significantly quicker from 60 to 100 mph.

 

[CZguy]

There is (as many suggest) definitely something Tesla won't tell us. Which is, for an upgrade that costs 8250 eur here in Europe, quite disturbing.

I had contacted the "eu-accessories" email contact that I wanted to upgrade my month old P85D to Ludicrous. I then received a call that I can do the Ludicrous for €8.25k or also the battery for ca €25k (don't remember exact figure). I said Ludicrous only. Then, after reading this thread, I sent them a question about if the performance of the upgraded P85D matches the P90D and they only referred me to the "three dog day" blog post. I asked them again a yes/no question of if the 0-60 mph will be 2.9 sec. And they replied, in rather a cold manner, that they cannot tell me more than they already did. Translated: "give us your €8.25k and don't ask questions, or f off".

I love the car. But hey, this dodgy style of communicating is not matching its high standards. This is not a free upgrade where I should be just happy without questions.

 

[MarcG]

Not sure this has been mentioned before, but it looks like the 1/4-mile time description has been updated to:

1. Remove any mention of the 11.7 second time (for non-Ludicrous P85D so it's no longer known to newcomers)
2. Add verbiage to specifically call out "range upgrade" to the 10.9 second time for Ludicrous 1/4-mile

Meaning: only the P90D with Ludicrous upgrade from the factory will ever see 10.9 seconds in the 1/4-mile.
So a P85D upgraded to Ludicrous, maintaining 85 kWh capacity, will NOT see a 1/4-mile time of 10.9 seconds (likely it'll just be 11.5).

Here are the before (left) and after (right) screenshots I took:

<--taken late-July

<-- taken just now

 

[andrewket]

So what DOES the L upgrade get a P85D?

 

[sorka]

This is not new. It's been like that for at least a month. The question is what will the P85D 1/4 time be? A recent email from tesla quoted by another forum member said that the 0-60 and 1/4 mile time would both improve by 0.2 seconds which means the only improvement would be from 0-60 and nothing after 60.

 

[MarcG]

So what DOES the L upgrade get a P85D?

So far it looks like an improvement of 0-60mph time of 0.2 seconds (2.9 instead of 3.1)
which means an improvement of 1/4-mile time of 0.2 seconds (11.5 instead of 11.7? not sure...)

This is not new. It's been like that for at least a month. The question is what will the P85D 1/4 time be? A recent email from tesla quoted by another forum member said that the 0-60 and 1/4 mile time would both improve by 0.2 seconds which means the only improvement would be from 0-60 and nothing after 60.

That was me earlier in this thread, quoting the updated Tesla accessories website:

I swear Tesla is reading this thread closely and updating the order page to answer our questions. They've since updated to state:

"This upgrade represents an estimate 10% increase in power over the already insane P85D, provides for a 0.2 second improvement over both the 0-60 mph and the quarter mile time, from your current vehicle performance."

Emphasis mine. Which makes me wonder, is the entire acceleration upgrade taking place only up to 60mph?
This seems to counter the assumption that Ludicrous really helps accelerate at higher speeds... Hmmmm.