Off-Road Ability of Model X?

[Reykjavik]

... All off-roading vehicles are sealed tight to reduce water damage. These vehicles can go fully submerged with modifications obviously... If an electric car encounters water especially in the Model S over a certain height, the car automatically turns off the car instantaneously. The battery is located on the bottom of the car and if water ever reached any of the wires carrying electrcity you could say good-bye to your new car. Also - if you took the Model S into a certain height under water you cannot come back when the water dries up and drive away freely. You have to call Tesla and have it sent out to a service center / have a ranger come out.

No, off roading vehicles cannot operate while fully submerged. They need to have an air intake that is above water. Sure, you can add a snorkel type system, which just means that a part of the engine system sticks up higher than the rest.

Yes, if water gets to wires carrying current, that is a problem. But those wires can be insulated AND the entire compartment can be sealed. This is not possible with internal combustion engines, which require a source of fresh oxygen to keep burning fuel. And internal combustion engines also have a number of parts that can be damaged by water, including electronics.

While the model S isn't set up for off roading and deep wading, EVs have much more potential for it than anything that burns fuel to go forward.

 

[EarlyAdopter]

… Close the MS battery is liquid cooled.. Water would freeze in cold places like Colorado

Not close. Correct. Unless you can cite something that states the liquid is mineral oil, Fluorinert, or something else, I can assure you it is water that is doing the cooling. Freezing is easily dealt with by the addition of anti-freeze, most likely propylene glycol.

 

[ElSupreme]

Not close. Correct. Unless you can cite something that states the liquid is mineral oil, Fluorinert, or something else, I can assure you it is water that is doing the cooling. Freezing is easily dealt with by the addition of anti-freeze, most likely propylene glycol.

It is water based, and I believe Tesla told me they are using ethylene glycol (standard auto anti-freeze) as the anti-freeze. I think they told me 80-20 was the mix (water/glycol).

I could be wrong. I do know they gave me a few brands of antifreeze to buy from autozone, when I had a coolant leak. I just filled with distillled water until I got the car to them, as it was nice and warm last spring.

 

[stopcrazypp]

No luxury SUV is EVER bothers to advertise off road capabilities? …:roll eyes:

Jeep: Water Fording | Jeep® Grand Cherokee - YouTube
Land Rover: Land Rover LR4 Fording at the Land Rover Experience Driving School | Land Rover USA - YouTube
Porsche: Porsche Cayenne Off-road Test - SpeedingToday - YouTube (Note the comment of triple door seals)
BMW: x5s fording the stream - YouTube

Jeep and Land Rover are the two exceptions (as they are well known for their off road ability), but the two links you provided for the Porsche and BMW is not advertisement for the cars from the respective companies (but rather people privately going offroad). That's why I said MOST luxury SUVs, not NO luxury SUVs.

I have seen no evidence so far that off-road ability is something the mass market cares that much about (it's mostly a niche). This is different from people actually using that ability. It's that it's not even worth advertising nowadays (while winter ability IS).

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Not to start an argument, but this statement is 100% not true by many standards. To exemplify my statement; Jeep has luxury models some at an upwards of $70,000 + and they always advertise off-roading. Land Rover advertises their luxury vehicles as off-roading vehicles in a majority of their commercials.

I knew people were going to get on my case using Jeep or Land Rover as examples (that's why I said "most"). If you look at all the other brands except for those two: Acura, BMW, Lexus, Porsche, Infiniti, Mercedes, Audi, Volvo, etc, I have yet to see off road ability being pushed (there might be a few exceptions here or there). The top thing being pushed is winter/slippery road performance.

 

[jerry33]

Jeep and Land Rover are the two exceptions (as they are well known for their off road ability), but the two links you provided for the Porsche and BMW is not advertisement for the cars from the respective companies (but rather people privately going offroad). That's why I said MOST luxury SUVs, not NO luxury SUVs.

You could also add the Mercedes G-class to the Jeep and Land-Rover (although the new ones are pretty wimpy in my opinion).

 

[wycolo]

> I think they told me 80-20 was the mix (water/glycol). [ElSupreme]

50/50 Anti-Freeze/water mix gives the maximum protection, -27*F. NEVER use it undiluted because it will freeze up easily.
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[qwk]

It is water based, and I believe Tesla told me they are using ethylene glycol (standard auto anti-freeze) as the anti-freeze. I think they told me 80-20 was the mix (water/glycol).

I could be wrong. I do know they gave me a few brands of antifreeze to buy from autozone, when I had a coolant leak. I just filled with distillled water until I got the car to them, as it was nice and warm last spring.

Tesla absolutely doesn't use standard auto antifreeze. If you add the green stuff to your Model S, you void the warranty of the cooling system. Tesla uses G-48 antifreeze. A pic is below.

 

[EarlyAdopter]

G-48 makes sense. Same as BMW since they changed over to aluminum engine blocks. I had hoped Tesla went with a propylene glycol over an ethyl-based one for eco-friendliness, but I guess the aluminum corrosion inhibitors in G-48 are more important. Nice post here on the specifics of G-48:

Bimmerfest - BMW Forums - View Single Post - Coolant - BMW OEM Only??

 

[theganjaguru]

Tesla will definitely NOT advertise it as an off-roading vehicle and will focus on the crossover. Here is the difference between an SUV and a crossover, "For many car experts, the difference between the two is simple: A crossover is based on a car's platform, while an SUV uses the chassis of a truck." If they focus on an SUV then that will cause people to take it off-roading which may cause bad publicity.

Right. A crossover is just a new name for a station wagon because no one buys station wagons, so they had to come up with a different marketing name.

From a purely technical standpoint you are correct. However, if you've ever spent quality time overseeing sales and marketing people, you'd know they usually won't let facts get in the way of a sale. The majority of SUV's I've mentioned on this thread that can ford water are all technically cars by the whole car vs truck construction (unibody vs body on frame). However, these "cars" are still able to ford water and go off-road. How is the X going to be able to compete against two of its main competitors if it can't go off road? Especially the fact we all know the X is going to be expensive.

Sure you can argue that the X will be the best AWD "people hauler". But that doesn't meet TSLA's own language on the X Page as it clearly states SUV, not CUV. If the "utility meet performance" is falcon wing doors and AWD without the ability to at least ford 20 inches of water tesla will not have built the best SUV in the world, and I thought that was the goal with the X.

Jeep and Land Rover are the two exceptions...

I find it isn't always good to speak in absolutes....

Off-road - Chassis - Cayenne - Dr. Ing. h.c. F. Porsche AG

I provided the Porsche and BMW videos only to prove a point that the vehicles are capable of going off-road (and fording) and that in some way they are being advertised as those are either dealers or factory reps in those videos. Obviously they are marketing the off-road ability of those cars in order to sell units.... And that's the fact you and I disagree on.

 

[gene]

I find this thread amusing on what you folks think is "off-roading". I have extensive experience driving thousands of miles of African Sahara, Mexico, Central America jungles and Arctic Canada and Alaska. True "off-road" means no road. This is illegal in every country a Tesla X might be sold. Not a single uni-body competitor to the X will truly drive "off-road" and if so, not for long. What you folks mean is driving dirt roads that may be at times in rough to very rough condition. Porsche and BMW SUV's regardless of promotional videos would never take you across Africa. You need lots of tire profile, true 4wd (not AWD) with crawl ratios of 75:1 or better, plus a body on frame. You need lots of suspension travel that not a single of the mentions SUV's have. You might say, what about Jeep unibodies? Well, in rough use, these bodies get twisted and it isn't long before the doors won't even close properly. The fording rivers videos you are all hung up on, well ICE vehicles if they can get through without stalling require differential oils changed and wheel bearings greased practically immediately.

This video gives you an idea of the superior suspension and crawl abilities of a proper body on frame truck with very low gears. This Dodge is completely stock, but with manual trans: Saline Fiddlers Visit Butte Valley - YouTube

Here is a true water fording Lada Niva vehicle just for fun: lada niva submarine under water car scuba diving - YouTube

 

[bonnie]

I think most people here are using the term 'off-roading' to describe the typical usage of most vehicles sold for off-road use (not true off-roading, as you describe). No one is suggesting the Model X meet that higher criteria.

 

[green1]

Ok, I'm going to appologize in advance, because I'm sure this post will offend some, but I speak the truth...

I think most people here are using the term 'off-roading' to describe the typical usage of most vehicles sold for off-road use (not true off-roading, as you describe). No one is suggesting the Model X meet that higher criteria.

In that case, the typical use of those vehicles is city driving, with the occasional highway trip. never hitting a dirt road, let alone off road. Companies show the vehicles climbing mountains and fording rivers, not because the vehicles are good at it, or that anyone will actually do it, but because people are buying that image of the vehicle. They are trying to say they're rugged people into the great outdoors, and have a vehicle to match.
The number of people who off-road at all is a minute fraction of a percent of people who buy SUVs, in fact it's such a tiny portion that none of the major SUV makers truly cater to it beyond the marketing videos. The only real exception I can think of is the Mercedes G class, but even then the version sold in north america is unlikely to ever leave the road.

If tesla wants to sell the X as an offroad vehicle, they can do what every other SUV manufacturer does. Completely ignore the offroad market, and take pictures of the vehicle propped up on some rocks with the mountains in the background. They are far better off putting their time and resources in to making it better at what people actually use SUVs for, which is basically as the station wagons and mini-vans that they aren't willing to admit to driving. Realistically, the lack of offroading ability won't affect the sales of this vehicle at all.

 

[wycolo]

Terminology which might prove useful:

Graded Roads - Maintained at least once a year by use of Road Grader with a wide blade. Rocks are either rolled into the surface or pushed toward the shoulder. Composition: gravel, clay, sand, etc. Any Tesla can ride these roads but avoid Spring Thaw (mud season). In US National Forests these roads are maintained for Log Truck use. 'Highways' until the chatter builds up.

Wilderness Roads - Beyond Log Truck use so never graded. Lots of rocks. Washout protection on steep sections means you need a short wheelbase with high ground clearance to get over the Drain Humps. Thus Subaru Forester is perfect, Outback being longer might belly-scrape. MS in High Mode can probably do these, but should have Navigator to eyeball ground clearance. MS could be used to get up to a cabin on the lower (better) sections.

Rock Crawling - Boulder strewn 'roads' mostly for sport requiring extreme suspension/frame/body modifications. Winches, chains, bridge building gear, etc ensure they will get thru to the other side! :biggrin:

National Forest/BLM lands - On snow/ice you can go 'anywhere' with a snow-track vehicle since you are not touching the ground. You cannot drive a 2 track wheeled vehicle on a one track path. You cannot drive any motorized vehicle where there is no existing 'road', i.e. you cannot 'make your own roads'.

TRUE Wilderness Areas - NO motor vehicles allowed. Bicycles?? Horses are OK. Roads generally are blocked at the boundary and devolved into trails within boundaries.
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[bonnie]

And then there are those of us who have taken *city* vehicles (BMW, Volvo wagon, etc) on long backcountry roads clearly marked '4 wheel drive only'. It's all about understanding what your vehicle can (and cannot) do, clearances, looking at the terrain, be willing to get out and walk the terrain, etc.

This thread isn't about who really knows about what it means to take a vehicle off-road. It's about what the capabilities will be of the Model X.

 

[theganjaguru]

I find this thread amusing on what you folks think is "off-roading"...

I find your inability to understand the words off-road, capabilities and think in such a small box equally amusing, so I guess everyone wins!!! YEAH!!!

The topic here is off-road capabilities. Emphasis on capabilities. If you really want to get down to brass tacks by what is considered "real" then you have to under stand the true definition of off-road. Which you do not.

The "true" definition of off-road is defined as no paved (aka surfaced) road. So yes, technically a dirt road is off-road. Anything beyond that (such as rock crawling) is a more difficult level of off-roading. Kind of like skiing. Green circle, blue square or black diamonds. Easy, medium or hard. Off-roading - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If I said, "Only double black diamond counts as skiing, anyone who does a run that is less than double black diamond is not skiing! They are glorified poll draggers" (though I grew up skiing and sometimes used feel this opinion to be correct) I'd be perfectly wrong as I wold be ignoring the definition of what skiing is and masquerading my personal opinion in place of fact and empirical evidence. This is dangerous. But unfortunately how much of the world thinks critically.

To says, "Not a single uni-body competitor to the X will truly drive "off-road"" is to ignore the empirical evidence. Just use the google and search,

Does this Porsche driver not meet your definition of off-road?
Porsche Cayenne 4X4 - YouTube

I totally agree with you and others that most people wont use their MX for off-roading. However, many will buy because a vehicle is capable, that is why a lot of people buy land rovers. Some people will want an off-road vehicle so that in case of emergencies, they can go through a flooded street or up a washed put road. TSLA would be stupid not to make the X at least somewhat capable of off-road use. (Not rock crawling)

......, the lack of off roading ability won't affect the sales of this vehicle at all.

So when Motortrend or Edmunds does their luxury SUV shoot out and they say the TSLA was great until we got to a dirt road or a deep puddle, you don't think that would have an effect

Elons vision was to build the best cars in the world that also happen to be electric. Your view appears to be that people are only buying this vehicle because it is electric. If they are not making the X To handle at least some off-road duty, are they truly making the best SUV in the world that just happens to be electric?

 

[green1]

Yes, the X can still be "the best". Because the "best" doesn't mean off-road. The "best" is that it will be the best at doing what people do with an SUVs, and that is NOT offroading.
As I said earlier in the thread, the electric drivetrain gives it quite a few advantages over an ICE vehicle in the realm off off-roading, and my bet is that it will be a better offroader than most comperable vehicles. That also doesn't take much, as most of them are not designed for offroad either. We don't need to talk fording depth or rock crawling ability because they are 100% irrelevant to selling an SUV. It needs good traction on dirt roads, yes, but that's 90% tire choice and only 10% vehicle. It needs enough ground clearance to tackle a forestry road, and to be able to drive through big puddles, but my Mercedes S class could do all that.

I drove my Mercedes S class on cut-lines and lousy back roads, including on occasions where people in 4x4 SUVs refused. I've realized that SUVs are all about image, not about functionality.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I find it isn't always good to speak in absolutes....
View attachment 46440
Off-road - Chassis - Cayenne - Dr. Ing. h.c. F. Porsche AG

That's why I didn't.

(there might be a few exceptions here or there). The top thing being pushed is winter/slippery road performance.

And looking at the big picture; how many Porsche Cayenne commercials even mention off-roading? Just by googling I struggled to find even one of them (maybe you will have better luck):
https://www.google.com/#q=cayenne+commercial&tbm=vid

Jeep and Land Rover are the only two I know of that prominently feature ads about offroading their vehicles.

Sure you linked a page where it's mentioned, but you had to do a targeted search to find that. Most people won't dig all way down to that hidden sub-menu just by navigating the site. And if you look the highlights and gallery it's all on-road driving.

I provided the Porsche and BMW videos only to prove a point that the vehicles are capable of going off-road (and fording) and that in some way they are being advertised as those are either dealers or factory reps in those videos. Obviously they are marketing the off-road ability of those cars in order to sell units.... And that's the fact you and I disagree on.

My main point is that offroad ability is very, very far down the list nowadays in the luxury SUV market. There might be a few exceptions here or there, but Tesla won't be losing very many customers even if they don't mention it at all. Tesla has made no indication they are going to make the Model X an off-road vehicle and I don't think they need to for it to be a market success. I think the far bigger thing is they are going to try to target the Cayenne Turbo and make a high performance SUV.

 

[dsm363]

The Model X will be a people and things hauler and not meant for serious off-road is my guess. As long, also said above , it can handle bad dirt roads and basic off road duties it wills be fine. 99% of time will likely be on paved roads anyway.

 

[EchoDelta]

I would like to drive in the beach... but the salty water+Aluminium & water+electrics & sand+weight worry me; and thus I probably won't; and I still think it'll be the best car around.

 

[wycolo]

> BMW, Volvo wagon, etc [bonnie]

What, no Roadster?! :smile:
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