Ocean Energy

[Auzie]

The co-generation aspect is particularly interesting. Still, with even the projected costs high, it's looking like a wet-island solution at best,

Technology seems to be at early stages, costs are likely to go down. Perth project supplies power to Department of Defence. They might be less cost sensitive than the average customer.

It is unlikely to be mainstream technology but it might become good complementary alternative for some customers.

Thanks for finding the right thread Robert.

 

[RubberToe]

An update about the ocean wave energy company, GWave LLC, where I run commercial & business development:

Yesterday, Dynegy filed a pair of preliminary permit requests with the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission which, if granted, will allow Dynegy the right to conduct further studies regarding the feasibility and impact of a wave park off the coast of Morro Bay.

In November Dynegy announced its plans to retire the existing 650 MW plant and stated it would be exploring opportunities to develop energy projects that would support California’s green energy goals. One wave energy technology that holds promise is with GWave LLC. Dynegy is in negotiations with GWave and hopes to begin preliminary testing at the wave park in 2014.

Article about this is here: Dynegy officially closes the Morro Bay Power Plant | Local News | SanLuisObispo.com

The preliminary permit is an initial step that will help us determine, through careful study, if Dynegy can develop a responsibly sited, environmentally safe, and compatible with community needs renewable energy project. Only time, a review of study results, and engagement with the local community will determine if Dynegy moves ahead with wave park development. This is a multi-phased process and we are at the very beginning of the first phase.

On a personal note, I know that a few Tesla fans live in this area. I'll be spending a lot of time in San Luis Obispo County over the next three years, and I look forward to meeting many of you.

Robert,
I was just following up on this, and checked Google to see if anything was new in the last year or so. It looks like Dynergy is looking to sell the actual decommissioned plant:

Latest local news from San Luis Obispo, CA | The Tribune

Can you share any news about what is going on there? I did see another article about NIMBY's opposed to wave power, but didn't want to ruin my morning so I skipped that one.

RT

 

[Robert.Boston]

Dynegy announced during its Q4 ER that it has decided not to sell its California portfolio at this time. We are working with local interests to find an ocean location near the Morro Bay Power Plant that will be a reasonable balance of interests among all parties. I have a lot of sympathy for the fishermen based in Morro Bay, because the state has already imposed substantial limits on what they can catch and where. It's not surprising that having yet more ocean placed out of bounds needs to be balanced with appropriate benefits to the city.

 

[rolosrevenge]

More ocean out of bounds means more sanctuaries and better fishing returns on the areas allowed to be fished in the long run.

 

[Auzie]

More ocean out of bounds means more sanctuaries and better fishing returns on the areas allowed to be fished in the long run.

Less ocean out of bound in UK, likely to happen

UK is planning wind farm the size of Puerto Rico in the middle of the North Sea

Dogger Bank Creyke Beck will sit in shallow water in the middle of the North Sea, 131 kilometres (81 miles) from the UK coast. It will cover an area of 8660 square kilometres, only slightly smaller than the country of Puerto Rico, which is 8870 square kilometers, and almost exactly the same size as Corsica.

The project will have installed capacity of 2.4 Gigawatts.

UK is the world leader in offshore wind harnessing.

It is expected that the navigable ocean space allocated to wind farms will increase 50 fold.

Marine life may be affected to a high degree. Ships have to navigate around structures and cables present problems for fishermen.

Wave harnessing equipment seems a bit less intrusive.

 

[Robert.Boston]

The energy density of waves is much higher than wind. We expect to site an 800 MW array of our wave tech in 2 sq statute miles, about 1/20 of the space of a comparable offshore wind farm.

 

[Auzie]

The energy density of waves is much higher than wind. We expect to site an 800 MW array of our wave tech in 2 sq statute miles, about 1/20 of the space of a comparable offshore wind farm.

I did not really study either in too much detail. The higher energy density of waves over air is to be expected. Movement of heavier mass gives higher energy output, providing similar losses in conversion to electricity. Gains on mass are offset with losses on less movement generated by buoys as compared to wind turbines.

I would imagine that wind turbines have higher environmental impact than waves harnessing buoys. Unlike wind turbines, buoys do not generate harmful noise and are unlikely to kill anyone.

Perth project buoys capacity is 240kW per buoy, but the aspiration is to develop and install 1mw buoy.
Current costs are 30-40 c per kWh, aspiration is 12-15 c per kWh, which is comparable to domestic rates.

 

[Robert.Boston]

We're currently building a 9MW "buoy" for deployment this summer. I use the word "buoy", but it's actually a 12,000 ton vessel. Should have game-changing impacts on the delivered price of wave power.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

We're currently building a 9MW "buoy" for deployment this summer. I use the word "buoy", but it's actually a 12,000 ton vessel. Should have game-changing impacts on the delivered price of wave power.

Very interesting. Please keep us updated on this thread.

 

[Auzie]

We're currently building a 9MW "buoy" for deployment this summer. I use the word "buoy", but it's actually a 12,000 ton vessel. Should have game-changing impacts on the delivered price of wave power.

My guess would be that these large buoys will generate electricity inside themselves rather than transfer water to off shore turbines. It is easier and neater to lay submarine cables on the ocean bed than to lay pipes and pumps.

CWE (Carnegie Wave Energy) plans to do that with their next generation 1MW buoys.

CWE got off the ground thanks to various government grants.

 

[Robert.Boston]

My guess would be that these large buoys will generate electricity inside themselves rather than transfer water to off shore turbines. It is easier and neater to lay submarine cables on the ocean bed than to lay pipes and pumps.

CWE (Carnegie Wave Energy) plans to do that with their next generation 1MW buoys.

CWE got off the ground thanks to various government grants.

Yes, generation is internal to the vessel, with interconnect cables between the vessels that are essentially identical to how offshore wind farms work. I'm delighted to say that my company has never accepted, nor do we ever plan to accept, any government funding. If one has a compelling design and commercial case, you can attract investors.

 

[Auzie]

Yes, generation is internal to the vessel, with interconnect cables between the vessels that are essentially identical to how offshore wind farms work. I'm delighted to say that my company has never accepted, nor do we ever plan to accept, any government funding. If one has a compelling design and commercial case, you can attract investors.

It is a huge hurdle that new technologies have to overcome. Anyone's, including government's help, is usually welcome.

It must be a different culture in US:wink:, it makes it so much harder to get off the ground without help, yet in some twisted way the difficulties that one must overcome act as training wheels and feed into strength. The nett result of such culture is that the US is churning out new technologies at a rate that no other nation can match or compete with.

It follows that help needs to be carefully delivered as it may be counter productive. Congratulations on getting there without gov help, it makes it so much sweeter.

 

[SmartElectric]

Congratulations on getting there without gov help, it makes it so much sweeter.

Hmm.

<rant>

Corporate tax rates don't pay for all of the things provided by government such as health care, roads and other transportation infrastructure. Businesses benefit big time by not "paying back", as the governments at all levels take on debt instead of taxing for the actual costs to them. This results in lower effective production costs.

Let's not buy into the myth that any business is independent of government assistance.

A company may not get a direct grant, but all of the other things provided by government sure does make it more profitable doesn't it?

</rant>

 

[Auzie]

Hmm.

It is a huge hurdle that new technologies have to overcome. Anyone's, including government's help, is usually welcome.

It must be a different culture in US:wink:, it makes it so much harder to get off the ground without help, yet in some twisted way the difficulties that one must overcome act as training wheels and feed into strength. The nett result of such culture is that the US is churning out new technologies at a rate that no other nation can match or compete with.

It follows that help needs to be carefully delivered as it may be counter productive. Congratulations on getting there without gov help, it makes it so much sweeter.

<rant>

Corporate tax rates don't pay for all of the things provided by government such as health care, roads and other transportation infrastructure. Businesses benefit big time by not "paying back", as the governments at all levels take on debt instead of taxing for the actual costs to them. This results in lower effective production costs.

Let's not buy into the myth that any business is independent of government assistance.

A company may not get a direct grant, but all of the other things provided by government sure does make it more profitable doesn't it?

Huh those pesky unintended consequences, my apologies for polluting ocean discussion thread with comments on government help

Agree with all your points SmartElectric, I am not denying the importance of government's role, quite the opposite. The government creates environment for businesses to succeed. It is a team effort.

Back to waves

 

[Auzie]

The Thermohaline circulation

The surface water in cold areas gets denser due to evaporation or ice formation. Its salt content rises. Such denser surface water sinks deeper, displacing deeper cold water currents into horizontal moves, until these underwater currents find a suitable outlet in some other areas to rise up.

Once on the surface, water masses are moved mainly by wind.

This thermohaline circulation is caused by temperature and salt content (halinity) variations.

Nasa animation shows this pumping in the North Atlantic Ocean.

[video]http://pmm.nasa.gov/education/sites/default/files/videos/thermohaline_conveyor_30fps.mp4[/video]

The article in Washington Post, Global warming is now slowing down the circulation of the oceans, discusses potential consequences of slowing down of this pumping due to melting ice having dilutive effect on salinity, thus reducing haline variations that contribute to pumping.