Non-Tesla DC Fast Charging Infrastructure

[Falcon73]

1st, my apologies if this isn't the right place for this topic.

I'm tracking both Tesla Superchargers and non-Tesla DC Fast Chargers in my area (South OC, SoCal). The rate at which Tesla is building and the rate that others that don't appear to be building at all is very telling.

In my area, I'm not aware of any current non-Tesla DCFC construction projects, but more alarming is only 2 new DCFC sites (5 stalls total) have come online here in the past ~14 months. This is not a rate of construction that will lead to success for CCS cars (we have one as well).

In my area, the Lake Forest Supercharger just went online with 24 stalls. Another SuC is actively under construction with 16 stalls and there are another 4 SuC sites that have a permit.

What are EVgo, EA, CP and the rest doing? Waiting on NEVI?

I haven't found a forum that discusses these other networks much, other than individual threads in various other mfg forums. Are there any?

A few sites are being upgraded by EA and EVgo here, but I haven't seen any signs of new sites yet.

With Magic Docks going in at various SuC sites, (though I haven't noticed any here... yet), maybe it's time for the other networks to wake up.

 

[RTPEV]

1st, my apologies if this isn't the right place for this topic.

I'm tracking both Tesla Superchargers and non-Tesla DC Fast Chargers in my area (South OC, SoCal). The rate at which Tesla is building and the rate that others that don't appear to be building at all is very telling.

In my area, I'm not aware of any current non-Tesla DCFC construction projects, but more alarming is only 2 new DCFC sites (5 stalls total) have come online here in the past ~14 months. This is not a rate of construction that will lead to success for CCS cars (we have one as well).

In my area, the Lake Forest Supercharger just went online with 24 stalls. Another SuC is actively under construction with 16 stalls and there are another 4 SuC sites that have a permit.

What are EVgo, EA, CP and the rest doing? Waiting on NEVI?

I haven't found a forum that discusses these other networks much, other than individual threads in various other mfg forums. Are there any?

A few sites are being upgraded by EA and EVgo here, but I haven't seen any signs of new sites yet.

With Magic Docks going in at various SuC sites, (though I haven't noticed any here... yet), maybe it's time for the other networks to wake up.

I started a parallel forum & site (analogous to supercharge.info) at:

Fastcharger Forum

Community platform by XenForo®

discuss.fastcharger.info

and

fastcharger.info

Zoomable DC Fastcharger map with adjustable range indicator.

fastcharger.info

If you go to the Changes tab you can filter by network to see what kind of activity each of the networks has.

It is very true that EA has slowed down significantly recently. Only 12 new Opens this year so far (nationwide) and a large number of those were just re-openings after being temporarily taken out of service (I do need to make my Changes tab make a better distinction between a NEW opening and a RE-opening). I am hoping that this is because they realize their existing hardware is junk and are focusing on getting better hardware into their supply pipeline.

EVgo continues to open new sites at a reasonable pace, but they are just as quickly closing others, so the net gain is pretty low.

ChargePoint is adding sites all the time, but these are mostly one or two-stall affairs usually at car dealerships, so not all that helpful. EV Connect is pretty much the same, although their rollout is not as rapid as ChargePoint (understandable since they are a smaller company at this point).

Shell Recharge seems to be doing an okay job and between them and newcomer Circle K, I think they represent a good number of new recent sites.

And yet just the 9 known (so far) Magic Dock installations by Tesla, representing 96 CCS stalls dwarfs the number of new CCS stations across the country (albeit the Tesla sites are concentrated in those 9 specific places).

 

[MP3Mike]

What are EVgo, EA, CP and the rest doing? Waiting on NEVI?

Most likely yes. Why spend money on sites now, if you can wait a few months to submit a proposal and possibly get 80% of the costs covered by the federal government? Though it will likely be late this year that any state approves a proposal and makes funding available, so I expect non-Tesla infrastructure to start showing some build-out activity starting early next year. (They really can't even pick a site to get permitting started until after the states approves specific locations.)

 

[KJD]

I started a parallel forum & site (analogous to supercharge.info) at:

Fastcharger Forum

Community platform by XenForo®

discuss.fastcharger.info

and

fastcharger.info

Zoomable DC Fastcharger map with adjustable range indicator.

fastcharger.info

If you go to the Changes tab you can filter by network to see what kind of activity each of the networks has.

It is very true that EA has slowed down significantly recently. Only 12 new Opens this year so far (nationwide) and a large number of those were just re-openings after being temporarily taken out of service (I do need to make my Changes tab make a better distinction between a NEW opening and a RE-opening). I am hoping that this is because they realize their existing hardware is junk and are focusing on getting better hardware into their supply pipeline.

EVgo continues to open new sites at a reasonable pace, but they are just as quickly closing others, so the net gain is pretty low.

ChargePoint is adding sites all the time, but these are mostly one or two-stall affairs usually at car dealerships, so not all that helpful. EV Connect is pretty much the same, although their rollout is not as rapid as ChargePoint (understandable since they are a smaller company at this point).

Shell Recharge seems to be doing an okay job and between them and newcomer Circle K, I think they represent a good number of new recent sites.

And yet just the 9 known (so far) Magic Dock installations by Tesla, representing 96 CCS stalls dwarfs the number of new CCS stations across the country (albeit the Tesla sites are concentrated in those 9 specific places).

Nice work on the new site.

 

[lg_golfs]

I so appreciate the new site! I think it will be very valuable and beneficial. Will be signing up today and have some follow up questions for you. Will DM them here for now

 

[Dirtman16]

Most likely yes. Why spend money on sites now, if you can wait a few months to submit a proposal and possibly get 80% of the costs covered by the federal government? Though it will likely be late this year that any state approves a proposal and makes funding available, so I expect non-Tesla infrastructure to start showing some build-out activity starting early next year. (They really can't even pick a site to get permitting started until after the states approves specific locations.)

Sadly I think you are 100% correct on this. There is just limited incentive to roll out hardware in early 2023. Between grant funded CCS chargers and more magic dock Tesla locations, things should start getting much better in mid to late 2024.

 

[Falcon73]

I started a parallel forum & site (analogous to supercharge.info) at:

Fastcharger Forum

Community platform by XenForo®

discuss.fastcharger.info

and

fastcharger.info

Zoomable DC Fastcharger map with adjustable range indicator.

fastcharger.info

If you go to the Changes tab you can filter by network to see what kind of activity each of the networks has.

This is awesome. Thank you! I saw a link to the Magic Dock installations over there before but hadn't explored it further. I will now!

 

[Falcon73]

Most likely yes. Why spend money on sites now, if you can wait a few months to submit a proposal and possibly get 80% of the costs covered by the federal government? Though it will likely be late this year that any state approves a proposal and makes funding available, so I expect non-Tesla infrastructure to start showing some build-out activity starting early next year. (They really can't even pick a site to get permitting started until after the states approves specific locations.)

As I feared then. With so many more CCS cars are being sold than before, we need more sites NOW.

Locally, the CCS waits are already getting bad and much of the hardware deployed is very old. Just the other day I charged my Kona at a 50kW EVgo site (2 stalls) and guess what was on the other side? An R1S... and guess what vehicle came after me to charge there... an R1T... Yes, this is on a 50kW site. The R1T gave up instead of waiting. The R1S charged up to 61% and he was there 43 minutes. I'm guessing he started around 25% SoC IF it was the standard pack (not sure if I could tell and I forgot to look). I attached a pic of his "completed" session. His average speed was 49.5kW so, yep, he was maxing the stall.

Sadly I think you are 100% correct on this. There is just limited incentive to roll out hardware in early 2023. Between grant funded CCS chargers and more magic dock Tesla locations, things should start getting much better in mid to late 2024.

That's a lot of time for Tesla to work their Magic. I think Tesla could really score big with CCS on Magic Dock sites with the other networks dragging their feet waiting for "free" money.

Thanks again for the responses!

 

[Darmie]

That's a lot of time for Tesla to work their Magic. I think Tesla could really score big with CCS on Magic Dock sites with the other networks dragging their feet waiting for "free" money.

Thanks again for the reponses!

This magic dock is such a win win for Tesla. It's like a person coming over to their neighbors home to buy a glass of water since their water sometimes don't work. Once they take a look at how much nicer the home is compared to theirs, the wheels will start rolling in their head to have something as nice.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

I started a parallel forum & site (analogous to supercharge.info) at:

Fastcharger Forum

Community platform by XenForo®

discuss.fastcharger.info

and

fastcharger.info

Zoomable DC Fastcharger map with adjustable range indicator.

fastcharger.info

If you go to the Changes tab you can filter by network to see what kind of activity each of the networks has.

It is very true that EA has slowed down significantly recently. Only 12 new Opens this year so far (nationwide) and a large number of those were just re-openings after being temporarily taken out of service (I do need to make my Changes tab make a better distinction between a NEW opening and a RE-opening). I am hoping that this is because they realize their existing hardware is junk and are focusing on getting better hardware into their supply pipeline.

EVgo continues to open new sites at a reasonable pace, but they are just as quickly closing others, so the net gain is pretty low.

ChargePoint is adding sites all the time, but these are mostly one or two-stall affairs usually at car dealerships, so not all that helpful. EV Connect is pretty much the same, although their rollout is not as rapid as ChargePoint (understandable since they are a smaller company at this point).

Shell Recharge seems to be doing an okay job and between them and newcomer Circle K, I think they represent a good number of new recent sites.

And yet just the 9 known (so far) Magic Dock installations by Tesla, representing 96 CCS stalls dwarfs the number of new CCS stations across the country (albeit the Tesla sites are concentrated in those 9 specific places).

The Maine sites should be listed as Irving, not CircleK.

The gas stations are owned by Irving Oil, with convenience stores owned by Circle K (owned by Quebec company Alimentation Couche-Tard).

As far as I am aware the charger agreements are with Irving, not Circle K. Efficiency Maine listed Irving Oil and Irving Marketing in its Phase 3 and Phase 4 contract awards press releases:

https://www.efficiencymaine.com/docs/RFP_EM_010_2021_Notice_of_Award_05.14.21.pdf

https://www.efficiencymaine.com/docs/RFP_EM_008_2023_Notice_of_Award.pdf

Similarly Tesla has an agreement with Irving for Supercharger locations at Irving gas stations in Maine, New Brunswick and Nova Scotia that all have Circle K convenience stores.

 

[KzooMYP]

2022 was a really challenging year around the midwest. Some locations from ChargePoint and Rivian had construction start in June 2022, but not come online until January or February 2023. I watched many ‘coming soon’ PlugShare locations get removed, after 12 months+ of no signs of progress. The pace of installs seems to be picking up with 2023, but this is compared to the glacial pace of 2022.

One of the problems that NEVI and IRA doesn’t address is permitting or easements. For a CCS fast charger to be installed, an investor needs to be partnered with a candidate site willing to grant an easement. That is probably more difficult than we imagine it to be.

Pure speculation here; EA ripped out a lot of their old installs and basically started fresh. This gives me the impression that they bought DCFC that would present a combination of challenges, that made it more practical to start fresh. Challenges like unreliable chargers, manufacturers that couldn’t produce replacement parts, went bankrupt, discontinued models, couldn’t service their chargers, couldn’t support their chargers, etc. Anyone who has seen CES knows the EVSE market is awash with new entrants, new designs, new models, updates to old models, etc. It feels like the early days with Android smartphones and everyone rushing to produce one, only for a fraction of the manufacturers continuing to compete a decade later.

I speculate EVGo, EA, etc are more hesitant when selecting DCFC brands and models. They are asking more questions about reliability, service, support, and how weather/battle tested these models are. With all the money at stake, no one wants to bet on the wrong horse. Especially when it has become a well known fact (to the American public) that CCS charging is a mess, and that the only charging network that is reliable and has “it figured out” is the Tesla Supercharger network. I am not sure if it is fair to say the future of the CCS standard is on the line, but if the US government spends $7.5bn, and the CCS network is still a mess; this will become a hot button issue in politics, and people will question the standard even more than they already do. NEVI funding mandates 97%+ operating reliability. If EVGo, EA and others bet on the wrong horse, there will be lawsuits that could claw-back funds or penalize them.

1st, my apologies if this isn't the right place for this topic.

I'm tracking both Tesla Superchargers and non-Tesla DC Fast Chargers in my area (South OC, SoCal). The rate at which Tesla is building and the rate that others that don't appear to be building at all is very telling.

In my area, I'm not aware of any current non-Tesla DCFC construction projects, but more alarming is only 2 new DCFC sites (5 stalls total) have come online here in the past ~14 months. This is not a rate of construction that will lead to success for CCS cars (we have one as well).

In my area, the Lake Forest Supercharger just went online with 24 stalls. Another SuC is actively under construction with 16 stalls and there are another 4 SuC sites that have a permit.

What are EVgo, EA, CP and the rest doing? Waiting on NEVI?

I haven't found a forum that discusses these other networks much, other than individual threads in various other mfg forums. Are there any?

A few sites are being upgraded by EA and EVgo here, but I haven't seen any signs of new sites yet.

With Magic Docks going in at various SuC sites, (though I haven't noticed any here... yet), maybe it's time for the other networks to wake up.

 

[RTPEV]

The Maine sites should be listed as Irving, not CircleK.

The gas stations are owned by Irving Oil, with convenience stores owned by Circle K (owned by Quebec company Alimentation Couche-Tard).

As far as I am aware the charger agreements are with Irving, not Circle K. Efficiency Maine listed Irving Oil and Irving Marketing in its Phase 3 and Phase 4 contract awards press releases:

https://www.efficiencymaine.com/docs/RFP_EM_010_2021_Notice_of_Award_05.14.21.pdf

https://www.efficiencymaine.com/docs/RFP_EM_008_2023_Notice_of_Award.pdf

Similarly Tesla has an agreement with Irving for Supercharger locations at Irving gas stations in Maine, New Brunswick and Nova Scotia that all have Circle K convenience stores.

Thanks for the feedback. Feel free to comment on the appropriate threads on discuss.fastcharger.info if you think they should be updated.

That said, for at least some of the sites, labeling them as Circle K was intentional in the sense that I'm not trying to capture who the legal agreement is with, but rather trying to capture the location that locals would most likely associate the station with (or, I simply try to match the Plugshare name). So while the hosting agreement might actually be with Irving Oil, the public is probably more likely to associate the site with the co-located Circle K store, not the gas station. But, you would probably know better than I how the local community in Maine thinks of those sites. I know that here in NC, even though Circle K stores might be co-located with Shell or some other gas station brand, the store is referred to as the Circle K.

 

[MP3Mike]

but if the US government spends $7.5bn, and the CCS network is still a mess;

They won't. Only $5.5B is allocated to NEVI, which is DCFC. The other $2B is allocated to a different program that is likely to be mostly level 2 AC EVSEs.

One of the problems that NEVI and IRA doesn’t address is permitting or easements.

Actually, the big problem is that the NEVI funding isn't available yet. So why would any of the CCS networks want to build anything right now, when they can wait ~9 months and possibly get NEVI funds to cover 80% of the cost of their installs/upgrades?

 

[Falcon73]

NEVI funding mandates 97%+ operating reliability. If EVGo, EA and others bet on the wrong horse, there will be lawsuits that could claw-back funds or penalize them.

Excellent thoughts. Thank you! The 97% up-time requirement is a big problem. Even 90% might be unrealistic. As it is right now, stations that have 67% of the theirs up are doing "well." Almost every CCS site I go to has at least 1 stall down and that's an automatic fail for NEVI.

NEVI is too late. It should have been passed years earlier. It's a bad time to be waiting for government money to build the stations.

And is Costco every going to get back in the game? I was surprised to hear they used to be and ripped out their stations back in 2011 from lack of use. They were 10 years too early, but should wake up now.

 

[KJD]

Excellent thoughts. Thank you! The 97% up-time requirement is a big problem. Even 90% might be unrealistic. As it is right now, stations that have 67% of the theirs up are doing "well." Almost every CCS site I go to has at least 1 stall down and that's an automatic fail for NEVI.

NEVI is too late. It should have been passed years earlier. It's a bad time to be waiting for government money to build the stations.

And is Costco every going to get back in the game? I was surprised to hear they used to be and ripped out their stations back in 2011 from lack of use. They were 10 years too early, but should wake up now.

Network reliability at non Tesla stations is still a major issue.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2023/12/13/electrify-america-ev-charger-broken/

But even among a group of struggling companies, Electrify America stands out. In a recent J.D. Power study, the company ranked last in consumer satisfaction among fast-charging networks, scoring a 538 on a 1,000-point scale.

 

[KJD]

We’re also working on developing a coast-to-coast network of affordable electric vehicle fast-charging stations we hope will make EV ownership a more convenient and accessible choice for Walmart shoppers and associates.

Investing in America: Walmart Announces New Stores, More Jobs

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Investing in America: Walmart Announces New Stores, More Jobs

This follows from April 6, 2023 when Walmart announced they would be installing charging. They already host a good number of Electrify America, but this appears to be a move to have its own branded network. This could be an attempt to move upmarket as its market is challenged by online sales.

Leading the Charge: Walmart Announces Plan To Expand Electric Vehicle Charging Network

As our customers and members continue to look for ways to save money and live better, I am excited to announce our plans at Walmart and Sam’s Club in the U.S. to make electric vehicle (EV) ownership more accessible, reliable, convenient and affordable for them across the country.

corporate.walmart.com

 

[Supcom]

This follows from April 6, 2023 when Walmart announced they would be installing charging. They already host a good number of Electrify America, but this appears to be a move to have its own branded network. This could be an attempt to move upmarket as its market is challenged by online sales.

Leading the Charge: Walmart Announces Plan To Expand Electric Vehicle Charging Network

As our customers and members continue to look for ways to save money and live better, I am excited to announce our plans at Walmart and Sam’s Club in the U.S. to make electric vehicle (EV) ownership more accessible, reliable, convenient and affordable for them across the country.

corporate.walmart.com

It's been about 10 months since that announcement. So, where are these chargers? Even the Bentonville, AR Supercenter still has just EA chargers.

 

[Dirtman16]

It's been about 10 months since that announcement. So, where are these chargers? Even the Bentonville, AR Supercenter still has just EA chargers.

A bit of an update

 

[Supcom]

A bit of an update

Ah, so it appears that they've gone with Chargepoint. Good to see that they are starting to install equipment.