Nissan Leaf

[ggr]

Wow, that Nismo Leaf is the best looking Leaf I've ever seen. And well engineered, too, to put up those times with standard Leaf drivetrain components. I like the honesty and good attitude of the Nismo team. At the end it shows the Nismo Leaf having the fastest lap by a few seconds, and they said they improved their lap times by 6 seconds by the end, and I think they said the lead Tesla was losing ground at the end. So were they (Nismo) mainly improving their lap times because the driver was getting more used to the car or track? If so, it sounds like they could have won if they had gotten some more practice time in and started out as fast as they finished. Think they'll ever hop across the Pacific for the Refuel Races?

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I would bet on it. I went to test drive a Volt a few months ago and found the Salesman to be very knowledgeable and very motivated to make the sale. He followed up by phone a few days after my visit as well. I didn't buy the car, but came away impressed by the GM dealership and the Volt.

Here's my second guessing: Nismo had a real racing driver in that car. But he had to dial it down at first because he didn't know if he'd have the range to finish if he wasn't careful about braking. Making up 6 seconds per lap is an insane amount of improvement for a professional driver. On the other hand, the Tesla drivers were probably just amateurs, who went hell-for-leather (with longer range) and then overheated something.

I felt for him, when he talked about the roadsters leaving him behind on the straights. I remember one of my motorcycle races, when I was a relative beginner. There was one guy on a much slower bike. At the start, I left him behind, but as I turned onto the start/finish straight, he cut under me and for a second or so was in front of me! Of course I waved goodbye down the straight. Then towards the end of the second lap, he was in front of me again, until I passed him about halfway down the straight. Third lap, I caught him at the end of the straight but he was instantly ahead of me again. Never saw him for the rest of the race. I was on a 750, he was on a 250! He was an A-grader. Anyway, skill of the driver matters a lot.

 

[vfx]

Anyway, skill of the driver matters a lot.

My dad told a similar story about racing at Riverside in his ground up built racecar and having a onethird the power of his car bugeye Sprite hanging it all loose in the S's and basically making him feel like a brick.

 

[dpeilow]

Hi David - can you please explain the "after tax rebates that's effectively halved" point?

Offset against capital: Company Car Tax Bands 2012 CO2 emissions

 

[Doug_G]

Leaf versus Volt

Leaf versus Volt (and Tesla for comparison): 65 km/h - thestar.com

 

[GSP]

Leaf battery capacity test

This looks like a carefully designed and executed measurement of battery capacity for several cars from hotter US climates.

I am glad Tesla, GM, and others provide thermal control for their batteries.

All The Results From Independent Test Of Nissan LEAFs With Lost Capacity. Not Instrument Failure

GSP

 

[jcstp]

about the battery issue too

 

[gaswalla]

about the battery issue too

Do you have a time-position at which we can scroll to? I don't have 2 hours to dedicate to this video.

 

[JRP3]

Around 24 minutes in, but he misinterprets some of Tony's data and probably comes to the wrong conclusion and blames the "BMS", which he likes to blame for almost all EV problems. If it is an instrument problem it's more likely the hall effect sensor that reads current for an amp hour counter, which is a pack level device, not a cell level BMS, which Jack of course knows, but still calls it a BMS problem.

 

[surfingslovak]

Jeff Kuhlman, Nissan Motor's divisional general manager and head of global communications, posted the following video on MNL earlier today:

 

[TEG]

Nissan Leaf spokesman Mark Perry retires during troubling times

 

[vfx]

Nissan Leaf spokesman Mark Perry retires during troubling times

Perry recently referred to the adoption of the Leaf as "the launch that never ends."

True for all EVs.

 

[vfx]

Jeff Kuhlman, Nissan Motor's divisional general manager and head of global communications, posted the following video on MNL earlier today:

Really good video of inside the corperate bubble. I have heard some simliar stories about Tesla and dealing with lawyers and goverment agencies re thinkgs like plugs and warrenties.

 

[dhrivnak]

On the Jack Rickard's accessment that the majority of the problem is due to instramentation, I think he is likely right. A "full" Leaf battery is supposed to be about 390V. And an "empty" is about 310 volts. But the LEaf does not report voltage just bars and turtles. When the "turtle" pops up then you are at the end of your drive, yo have about a mmile to pull off the road. On a few cars they tapped into the ODB port to collect additional data including battery voltage. The car that died first, gave the turtle, at 55 odd miles the ODB port showed the voltage was 350V. So the battery was at half charge not empty. But if you guage shows empty you are stuck. So hopefully Nissan can adjust the instramentation to properly reflect the true capacity.

 

[surfingslovak]

On the Jack Rickard's accessment that the majority of the problem is due to instramentation, I think he is likely right. A "full" Leaf battery is supposed to be about 390V. And an "empty" is about 310 volts. But the LEaf does not report voltage just bars and turtles. When the "turtle" pops up then you are at the end of your drive, yo have about a mmile to pull off the road. On a few cars they tapped into the ODB port to collect additional data including battery voltage. The car that died first, gave the turtle, at 55 odd miles the ODB port showed the voltage was 350V. So the battery was at half charge not empty. But if you guage shows empty you are stuck. So hopefully Nissan can adjust the instramentation to properly reflect the true capacity.

Pack voltages have been recorded during the test, I would suggest contacting Tony Williams if you needed more details.

 

[JRP3]

Jack was incorrect, he took incorrect data and ran with it, as he often does. Tony has explained where Jack got it wrong. There may be some instrumentation issues but there is also real, significant capacity loss.

 

[Dave EV]

The car that died first, gave the turtle, at 55 odd miles the ODB port showed the voltage was 350V. So the battery was at half charge not empty.

The 2 cars that reported ~350V were not run to turtle, they stopped around the 2nd low battery warning because a few cars were damaged during towing and they didn't want to damage any more cars. ~350V is typical for where those 2 cars stopped. The ultimate miles for those cars were estimated, but IMO you should just toss the data from those 2 cars when analyzing the results.

 

[TEG]

(Somewhat cynical point of view, but)

Some (within Nissan?) may think the "instrumentation issue" is that they provided a battery health gauge at all.
I heard some things like "most LEAF drivers never go more than 40 miles per day, so why do they care if their pack provides 80 miles range or 70 miles range?"
"But when they see a 'bar' disappear they get needlessly concerned."


I think it is well established that they battery will degrade over time. And obvious that people would wish their pack never aged. So we are debating things along the lines of "How easy should it be for people to notice?" "When is it considered a problem?" "What is normal versus excessive?"

 

[dpeilow]

2012 Nissan Leaf Gets Even Cheaper: Now, $139/Month Lease

 

[TEG]

Wow, that is a cheap lease price...

But, um, er, ...

...The 24-month lease allows 1,000 miles per month--12,000 a year--and is offered through October 31....
It's worth noting, though, that all such electric-car leases are based on the $7,500 Federal tax credit for purchase of a plug-in car goes to the financial institution that holds the lease, not to the person who leases the car.
In California, however, the state's $2,500 purchase rebate remains with the lessee, not the issuer of the lease.
...

THE BMW ActiveE FORUM - View Single Post - California - State Benefits for driving a BMW ActiveE

...does not qualify is that it is a 2-year lease...

THE BMW ActiveE FORUM - View Single Post - California - State Benefits for driving a BMW ActiveE

For purposes of the CVRP, a vehicle is deemed to be leased on the date
upon which the lease of the vehicle commences, which is typically specified in a signed
lease agreement. With the exception of vehicles purchased under the special
provisions of section 2.6, owned and leased vehicles must be operated and registered
in California for a minimum of 36 consecutive months. Vehicle purchaser and lessee
requirements regarding operating and ownership are found in detail in section 3.3 of this
Implementation Manual. ARB reserves the right to allow for a prorated rebate for Type
IV or V ZEVs with leases of 24 months or greater.

on page 2 the "Clean Vehicle Rebate Project Implementation Manual" found here:
http://energycenter.org/index.php/i...-vehicle-rebate-project-implementation-manual
This seems to indicate that the Air Resources Board (ARB) may make exceptions to the normal 36 month lease requirement for leases of 24 months or more and prorate the rebate.

So, it would be good to get confirmation if the 24 month lease gets you the state $2500 or not...

 

[Dave EV]

So, it would be good to get confirmation if the 24 month lease gets you the state $2500 or not...

Yeah, there is no question. If you don't sign a 36 mo lease, you don't get the CA rebate.