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New England 2014 and beyond electricity rates going up

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And Quebec Hydro can replace 1200+ mWh? Answer seems simple - run the power lines. Unsightly power lines for non-pollutive hydro power or burn more natural gas at higher prices. Pollution in the air is unsightly too.

How much more would it be to bury the lines? Probably a good idea anyway to avoid outage issues.
 
And Quebec Hydro can replace 1200+ mWh? Answer seems simple - run the power lines. Unsightly power lines for non-pollutive hydro power or burn more natural gas at higher prices. Pollution in the air is unsightly too.

How much more would it be to bury the lines? Probably a good idea anyway to avoid outage issues.
Burying long-haul high-voltage transmission isn't really a good option.

First, it's frightfully expensive: in round numbers, the cost would be 10x higher.

Second, heat dissipation is a serious issue. They'd have to have oil or similar coolant continually circulating along the route, and there's always a risk that the coolant will leak (causing pollution and taking the line out of services.

Third, putting the line underground can screw around with the system harmonics (in ways I can't explain but that the engineers take seriously). This costs more money to address.

Fourth, if something going wrong, it can take a long time to find and fix the fault.

All that said, it's not impossible to put transmission underground, just expensive and technically challenging. When CL&P did a big upgrade to the Connecticut backbone transmission, short sections were put underground to avoid the worst NIMBY problems.

Public radio this morning reiterated this idea of electric rates going up because the natural gas pipeline is limited. There has been an aggressive buildout of natural gas to residential consumers over the past couple of years here. Is this really poor planning on the part of the natural gas company.
It's not the job of the natural gas distribution companies to build pipelines for power plants to use; the power plants aren't their customers. And, as I discussed above, the power plants have very weak financial incentives to take on long-term commitments for gas supply. New England is missing an institution to coordinate and implement gas pipelines, comparable to how ISO New England plans electric transmission and gets it built.

I downloaded the suggested application and saw the current mix at 6pm was 28% renewable including hydro. A little misleading however when they include refuse in the mix. My layman view of renewable would be more like hydro, wind and solar not landfill gas, wood and refuse.
The definition of "renewable" is determined by your state's laws, not your utility, so it's hard to blame them for using statutory terms. It's really good to encourage burning of landfill gas. It's arguably the best possible "renewable" option out there. The landfill is going to generate and emit methane in any case. If it's not captured and burned, it will leak into the atmosphere. Methane is a potent GHG, far worse than CO2, so using it to generate electricity not only displaces burning of natural gas elsewhere, but it reduces methane emissions.

The same argument has been advanced re refuse and bio (=wood waste). The stuff is going to decompose and emit various GHGs, so better to burn it, getting some useful work out of it. There have been some studies that suggest this logic doesn't quite pan out unless the refuse/biomass reactor is quite efficient.
 
Robert,

The numbers I saw for Northern Pass when they were discussing burying an 8 mile section took the project frrom $1.2B to $1.4B. If they can do that on the most contentious stretches of the path, it seems like the best solution. It doesn't seem like it would break the bank.
 
Robert,

The numbers I saw for Northern Pass when they were discussing burying an 8 mile section took the project frrom $1.2B to $1.4B. If they can do that on the most contentious stretches of the path, it seems like the best solution. It doesn't seem like it would break the bank.
Let's do the math on that. The incremental cost of $0.2B for 7.5 miles of underground is $26.7M per mile. There are 179.25 miles of overhead lines in the planned route. If the cost per miles to underground the transmission is constant, then the cost of the project would be increased by $4.78B dollars, from $1.2B to $6.0B. So, it's "only" 5x the cost, not 10x the cost, but it's still a huge price increase that would kill the project economics.

Disclaimer: I consulted for PSNH and Hydro Québec on the Northern Pass project.
 
It's not the job of the natural gas distribution companies to build pipelines for power plants to use; the power plants aren't their customers. And, as I discussed above, the power plants have very weak financial incentives to take on long-term commitments for gas supply. New England is missing an institution to coordinate and implement gas pipelines, comparable to how ISO New England plans electric transmission and gets it built.


The definition of "renewable" is determined by your state's laws, not your utility, so it's hard to blame them for using statutory terms. It's really good to encourage burning of landfill gas. It's arguably the best possible "renewable" option out there.

I felt up to speed, on how managers of the wires and distribution (NSTAR, Nat Grid, etc) are not allowed to own generation (at least in MA), but "the power plants aren't their customers" stumps me, a bit, if you are talking about the generators? As an ingredient to their process, don't they engage in direct n. gas purchases?

Landfill gas just doesn't offer the material quantities to do things, like take a state to its 23% renewables mandate. Most landfills either fuel their trucks, or connect to the grid with a <10MW solution. This is part of the statutory challenge, and why states like CT recently modified their language to include imported hydro.
 
It's really good to encourage burning of landfill gas. It's arguably the best possible "renewable" option out there. The landfill is going to generate and emit methane in any case. If it's not captured and burned, it will leak into the atmosphere. Methane is a potent GHG, far worse than CO2, so using it to generate electricity not only displaces burning of natural gas elsewhere, but it reduces methane emissions.

Good points. Seems like landfill gas ought to get extra credit in RPS programs. Are there predictions for the potential capacity of landfill gas, as a percentage of grid demand?
 
I felt up to speed, on how managers of the wires and distribution (NSTAR, Nat Grid, etc) are not allowed to own generation (at least in MA), but "the power plants aren't their customers" stumps me, a bit, if you are talking about the generators? As an ingredient to their process, don't they engage in direct n. gas purchases?
On the gas side, there are owners of interstate gas pipelines and there are local distribution companies (LDCs). Nearly all large power plants buy NG directly from the pipelines through laterals they've constructed for that purpose, so the LDC is not their supplier. The power plants can either choose to buy firm transportation or not. If they don't buy firm transportation, then the pipeline owners don't plan capacity for them (per FERC requirements). To the best of my knowledge, no New England power plant owner has contracted for firm transportation. ISO New England is trying to invoke various tariff requirements to force them to do so, but it's grossly inefficient (from any one owner's point of view).
 
Let's do the math on that. The incremental cost of $0.2B for 7.5 miles of underground is $26.7M per mile. There are 179.25 miles of overhead lines in the planned route. If the cost per miles to underground the transmission is constant, then the cost of the project would be increased by $4.78B dollars, from $1.2B to $6.0B. So, it's "only" 5x the cost, not 10x the cost, but it's still a huge price increase that would kill the project economics.

Disclaimer: I consulted for PSNH and Hydro Québec on the Northern Pass project.

Yeah, burying the entire length is not going to be economically feasible. PSNH proposed 7.5 miles and the Society for the Protection of New Hampshire Forests said it should all be buried. I would hope there is someplace between 0 and 180 where a compromise could be reached.
 
Very informative posts and thank you very much for the education. Seems like a shame to have hydro available so close yet too far so instead we burn Natural Gas.

Instead of a small scar, the society of forest prefers a slow death?

I have the Iroquois pipeline running directly in by backyard. They have a 50' easement. Never been an issue for me. Although I wish I could tap into it for home heating instead of oil which is my current heating fuel.

Robert - wasn't blaming anyone on calling refuse or fill gas renewable. I agree with the arguments being made. I just meant it wasn't what I think of when I think renewable (wind, solar, hydro).
 
Robert, it seems inconceivable that a natural gas power plant has no direct contracts with suppliers, that situation needs to be rectified, even if it means ending deregulation and putting it back how it was. Natural Gas and electricity have a symbiotic relationship, all of the pipelines have compressor stations along the pipeline, that mostly run on, you guessed it, electricity.

I was just cleaning up and found some "Mass Electric" bills from the early 90's (before deregulation), the price of electricty back then was about .09 or .10 kwh, not so horrible. I don't think we've made much progress, really.
 
I was just cleaning up and found some "Mass Electric" bills from the early 90's (before deregulation), the price of electricty back then was about .09 or .10 kwh, not so horrible. I don't think we've made much progress, really.
Not much at all, especially when you consider that $0.09 in 1994 is $0.14 today, adjusted for inflation.
 
Ouch , I agree that there will be a lot of fingerpointing.

Personally I would prefer NOT to get married to huge investment for Natural Gas: I think it is sheep in wolves clothing.
70% of Maine heat with oil, another non renewable resource. Been there done that.

As Electric Vehicle Owners either home solar or even community solar may make sense for us: The Nuclear Fusion reactor in the sky is not going to fail anytime soon.


Powered by the sun - via panels many miles away - Maine Solar Power News by ReVision Energy




I fear the "glut" of cheap natural gas will follow same boom and bust that Oil has.
Many of the Fracked Natural Gas wells produce a lot of gas but have diminishing returns.


Better to build out local regional sources.

Start with the Quebec Hydro line, too bad NIMBYS are holding this back.
I think if there was increased awareness, most would drown out the vocal minority

Dr Mark Jacobson has 50 state solution to be 100% Hydro Wind Solar Tide Wave Geothermal etc for all the states.


The Solutions Project - 100% Renewable Energy
 
Personally I would prefer NOT to get married to huge investment for Natural Gas: I think it is sheep in wolves clothing.
70% of Maine heat with oil, another non renewable resource. Been there done that.

Start with the Quebec Hydro line, too bad NIMBYS are holding this back.
I think if there was increased awareness, most would drown out the vocal minority

Rate-payers would have been better off spending the ~200 million, to bury 7-10 miles of Northern Pass. There's another similar proposal, from Nova Scotia, tying into HQ's lines with over 1,000MW of wind power. The point is Gas / Hydro+wind / Nothing are three choices, of which 'Nothing' has been chosen by default. The New England Governors were discussing MA allowing NG lines to pass through, in exchange for MA, more or less, going thier own way (wind, hydro, maybe NG). A solicitation last July, for 1.3 TWH of supplier bids stalled at the state house. To get it "unstuck", the pivotal Committee on Environment members are: Brownsberger, Downing, Wolf, Hedlund, Rush and Pacheco. MA residents writing them, whether or not they cover your town, could go a long way.
Joint Committee on Environment, Natural Resources and Agriculture


I look at utility investments in about 30 states, and am amazed how poor resource procurement and planning are, right here at home. I've seen 3.5 cent/kwh long-term wholesale wind (SCPPA) and 5.5 cent/kwh solar (Austin Energy), and then without material growth in commercial renewables I see our rates climb to 13.59 (generation this December, no transmission). We are deregulated. SCPPA and the City of Austin, are regulated public utilities. Our model is broken, because in my opinion the 'public' are missing.

Technically, MA is a lot like TX, right now. Momentarily high utility rates, on the theory it will invite new supply, or people will switch to green (13.5 cent Verde wind, not just December). Economically, it doesn't matter. Rates go up for no reason other than short supply. A fools game.
 
Ouch , I agree that there will be a lot of fingerpointing.

Personally I would prefer NOT to get married to huge investment for Natural Gas: I think it is sheep in wolves clothing.
70% of Maine heat with oil, another non renewable resource. Been there done that.

As Electric Vehicle Owners either home solar or even community solar may make sense for us: The Nuclear Fusion reactor in the sky is not going to fail anytime soon.


Powered by the sun - via panels many miles away - Maine Solar Power News by ReVision Energy




I fear the "glut" of cheap natural gas will follow same boom and bust that Oil has.
Many of the Fracked Natural Gas wells produce a lot of gas but have diminishing returns.


Better to build out local regional sources.

Start with the Quebec Hydro line, too bad NIMBYS are holding this back.
I think if there was increased awareness, most would drown out the vocal minority

Dr Mark Jacobson has 50 state solution to be 100% Hydro Wind Solar Tide Wave Geothermal etc for all the states.


The Solutions Project - 100% Renewable Energy

I have to disagree. Even longer term, the ability to produce a non-trivial amount renewably and to synthesize it as an extra step from hydrogen with reasonable efficiency, while making distribution and storage easier, wedded to its high-efficiency in combustion, ability to provide efficient baseload and reasonably efficient peaking, plus it's value for use as a chemical, to me means that it will still be part any 100% renewable system. Given current abundance, good economics and it's ability to allow accelerated installation of renewable generation capacity right now I see no reason to wait and cross fingers on the speed of development of storage technology and other renewable technologies.
 
It's not about the money
Certainly nat gas is efficient, and you point out many ways it can help
I understand your point, I'm just trying to get away from burning things.
A Few hundred thousand years ago we started burning things. I am ready to stop burning things.
I see the Solutions Project as a way to help my philosophy come to a fruition.
 
I have National Grid (Mass) and my National Grid supply price is due to go from 8.277 c/kWh to 16.273 c/kWh the 1st of November. Luckily
I had just switched to an alternate supply provider (Provider Power Mass) for 7.45 c/kWh for till January where it will revalue. I just called them and their current 12 month contract price is 12.85 and 24 month price is 12.55. Thought I'd let you know in case anyone else is stuck with a looming 12.273 c/kWh.

My solar installation can't happen soon enough.

- - - Updated - - -

I have National Grid (Mass) and my National Grid supply price is due to go from 8.277 c/kWh to 16.273 c/kWh the 1st of November. Luckily
I had just switched to an alternate supply provider (Provider Power Mass) for 7.45 c/kWh for till January where it will revalue. I just called them and their current 12 month contract price is 12.85 and 24 month price is 12.55. Thought I'd let you know in case anyone else is stuck with a looming 12.273 c/kWh.

My solar installation can't happen soon enough.

I mean 16.273 c/kWh
 
Just did some checking for rates in Maine. The residential rate for power (excluding distribution charges) is fixed at $0.0756/kWh through 28-Feb-15. I can't find a competitive supply offer below $0.10, so I'll ride out the worst of the winter on Standard Offer.

Yes, I've just called CMP and switched back from Standard Offer - TOU to Standard Offer. It'll apply from my next billing cycle, which'll start November 5th or 6th. These are the Current TOU _supply-only_ rates (add about $0.063/kWh for the delivery and apply 5.5% sales tax for marginal use over 750kWh), which makes it obvious why I switched back:
Code:
Period 	Peak 		Off-Peak
Feb-15 	$0.15767 	$0.13270
Jan-15 	$0.16513 	$0.13607
Dec-14 	$0.12952  	$0.11087
Nov-14 	$0.09459 	$0.07917
Oct-14 	$0.06580 	$0.05730

Standard Offer is currently $0.075603, until February 28th 2015.

Having switched back to the fixed Standard Offer, I have to wait until January, when the new rates should be agreed, to decide whether to go back to TOU from March next year.

Maine's Standard TOU supply rate is only a couple of years old, and they seem to have introduced it in a way that sees the rate give you market pricing. Currently that's been during a period of increasing prices.

I still have TOU delivery, which is a marginal deal for me, but likely will work out better over a full year.
 
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It's easy not to notice, but CMP's Standard Offer rates include the first 100 kWh in the monthly service charge, while the TOU rate does not. I had thought to change to TOU at my summer camp because we use so little power during the day, but when I count the savings from the free 100 kWh/month, and my low usage overall at the camp, TOU didn't make sense.
 
I am about to pull the trigger on 7.2KW solar mounted on an Allsun tracker. Planning to install another 2.5kw myself and that should nearly power both the house and car year round. Re. Northern Pass, don't even get me started. If you dont live in NH, then you won't understand.