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New competitor in 2018. Next BMW 3 series

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#21
Touring said:
It's meant to compete with model 3, so I guess they will arrive at the party about the same time

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They are talking about the regular three series, not the I3.
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Well, maybe so, but a "90 kWh" battery is smack in the middle of Model S territory. I imagine the 3 will have more like a 70. So, it's 3 series with a big battery. Who knew?

And as long as they aren't taking sales away from Tesla, is it competition? And when the supposed competition is simply following where Tesla has been for many years, is that competition? And if the competition has no charging infrastructure to speak of, and no plans evident for reducing battery costs ....

One thing that BMW excels in is advertising. This will make more people aware of electric vehicles at a time when global warming is heating up and fossil fuels are winding down. If they mention they are competing with Tesla, well, hey, what a deal.
 
#22
Touring said:
It's meant to compete with model 3, so I guess they will arrive at the party about the same time

- - - Updated - - -

@liuping: They are talking about the regular three series, not the I3.
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If it's meant to compete with the 3, they'll have to lower the price. Did they saying they were dropping the price?
 
#24
tga said:
Funny how 5 years ago (ie, pre Supercharger network), the Tesla fans said stuff like "the Roadster has enough range for 99% of people's travel", "DC fast charging isn't necessary". Now, it's the exact opposite. "No DC fast charging network? It's crap." :wink:
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Not really, the bar has been raised over the last five years.

If they want to compete against the products of five years ago, that's fine. Lots of people will be fine with that, as long as it is priced appropriately.
If they want to compete against the current market, they need to step up.
 
#25
Zythryn said:
Not really, the bar has been raised over the last five years.

If they want to compete against the products of five years ago, that's fine. Lots of people will be fine with that, as long as it is priced appropriately.
If they want to compete against the current market, they need to step up.
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Agree. The Roadster does have enough range for 90+% of daily driving but without the Supercharging network, that last few percent of travel would make a car without such a network a non-viable option for many.

If this is a genuine 90kWh BMW 3 series car then it will be a nice addition to the EV family and the first serious competition to Tesla. Without a DC charging network though it becomes more of a day trip car.
 
#26
dsm363 said:
Agree. The Roadster does have enough range for 90+% of daily driving but without the Supercharging network, that last few percent of travel would make a car without such a network a non-viable option for many.

If this is a genuine 90kWh BMW 3 series car then it will be a nice addition to the EV family and the first serious competition to Tesla. Without a DC charging network though it becomes more of a day trip car.
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Which is fine with me. If I buy a Model 3 it will only be a day trip car, because it's too small to do a longer family trip (we'd use an SUV). Lots of missing details on either side to really see how it will stack up against the Model 3, but this could be nice. I was very disappointed in the i3, this sounds like it could be more the car I was hoping BMW would make.
 
#28
Curious about the battery tech. For the MiniE, ActiveE and the i3, BMW went with very low energetic Samsung cells, for safety I was told, which is why they could only fit 35 kWh in the MiniE, 32 kWh in the ActiveE, and only 22 kWh in the i3 (notice they've been going DOWN, not up). Either they've seen the light and are willing to up the energy, or they've got a new chemistry. Rumor has it the 2017 i3 will have the newest 94 Ah Samsung cells, but that only bumps the i3 to 34 kWh total. it's a long long way from there to 90 kWh.
 
#29
Touring said:
@ roblab: ok, I guess that car is no competition to Tesla then.

@S'toon: no, they did not say anything about price.
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IF true, a 90 kWh BMW all electric, with a 200 plus mile range will be serious competition. HOWEVER, ALL THESE GUYS ANNOUNCING THEIR FUTURE EV's WITHOUT ANY TALK OF BATTERY SUPPLY IS INCOMPLETE.

Is LG or Samsung gonna provide 30k plus battery Volume to Chevy AND now also to BMW and who knows how many more ? And they will be shipping these from Korea to Germany and then shipping the EV's to the US.

Is LG Chem or someone else in Germany building a GIGAFACTORY ?

In my opinion, the Tesla Gigafactory ( housed in the US) will be one of the sustainable differential advantages that Tesla will have, at least through 2018/2019. Both, in terms of supply and cost economies of scale....not to mention BMW and Chevy having to split profit margins with LG.

And, I expect the Tesla Supercharger network will be more than 100 % bigger by year end 2017. So, Tesla will still have some unique business model and strategic differentiation advantages.

IF the Model 3 is also extremely stylish/beautiful/sexy whatever......then then add to that the Tesla fast growing ( more than doubling every 2 years ) Supercharger network, and battery Gigafactory ............and Tesla will still be in the drivers seat.
 
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#30
roblab said:
Well, maybe so, but a "90 kWh" battery is smack in the middle of Model S territory. I imagine the 3 will have more like a 70. So, it's 3 series with a big battery. Who knew?

And as long as they aren't taking sales away from Tesla, is it competition? And when the supposed competition is simply following where Tesla has been for many years, is that competition? And if the competition has no charging infrastructure to speak of, and no plans evident for reducing battery costs ....

One thing that BMW excels in is advertising. This will make more people aware of electric vehicles at a time when global warming is heating up and fossil fuels are winding down. If they mention they are competing with Tesla, well, hey, what a deal.
Click to expand...
The Bolt has a 60kWh battery so I guess the base Model 3 will be around the same. Which means it's not unlikely that there will a performance Model 3 with a lot more kWh just like with the Model S. BMW called it eDrive Sport so it sounds like this is really where they are going. This is certainly competition for Tesla's high margin Model 3s. I would see it a bit like with what Porsche announced which does not compete with a 70kWh Model S, but rather with the high performance versions.



Quant said:
IF true, a 90 kWh BMW all electric, with a 200 plus mile range will be serious competition. HOWEVER, ALL THESE GUYS ANNOUNCING THEIR FUTURE EV's WITHOUT ANY TALK OF BATTERY SUPPLY IS INCOMPLETE.

Is LG gonna provide 30k plus Volume to Chevy AND now also to BMW and who knows how many more ?

Is LG Chem or someone else in Germany building a GIGAFACTORY ?

In my opinion, the Tesla Gigafactory will be one of the sustainable differential advantages that Tesla will have, at least through 2018/2019. Both, in terms of supply and cost economies of scale....not to mention BMW and Chevy having to split profit margins with LG.
Click to expand...
I don't understand why people think this is and issue. They have a supplier contract and LG Chem know what people want in 2018-2020 and are going to expand to meet that demand. They are also dnot aiming for the same volume as Tesla with the Model 3.

Also do you think Panasonic is working with Tesla for fun?
 
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#33
I could see Tesla even being a supplier to other auto manufacturers for batteries down the line- they will almost certainly be cost competitive. It also fits with the mission of the company which isn't to be the next GM, not to mention how much increasing cooperation there is between auto manufacturers compared to years past. From a business standpoint it would also make me feel good if I were a Tesla exec knowing that even if my demand slowed down or plateaued I could sell off the extra manufacturing capacity anyway!
 
#34
So BMW is probably the company we have to take most seriously as a compoetitor (caters to a very similar crowd, save for the EV part), but unless they have been building a GF in secret, heren is why "the sky is not falling".

- Price. I do not believe anyone has or will have (in the near future) large, integrated GF like Tesla, so unless BMW is willing to eat the loss, there is no way they can match the Model 3 on price.

- Volume. Currently, Tesla takes up a major chunk of global battery supply. So again, without a GF to match Tesla's, where are all the cells coming from? And before you say LG, there is only so many times you can use that joker... every time we have this question, people say LG, but I doubt they can supply even 1, let alone multiple big names with GF1 volumes.

- UI/OS updates. Tesla is more than just a very fast long range EV. The touchscreen UI and the OTA updates for all functions of the car are unique, and would require BMW to develop every electronic system and an overall OS like Tesla did - this is not their business model.

But here is the flipside: news like this makes Tesla step up their game, not become complacent.
 
#35
BMW could make a compelling BEV, but my money is on them not doing so. As mentioned, battery supply is a major issue, and even assuming it weren't, do we really think BMW would make a compelling electric 3-series, at something like 35k USD, to compete with similarly priced gas and diesel versions? The gas and diesel cars is where BMW makes it's money.

I think it is 90% certain that this car won't materialize, and if it does materialize, that it won't be compelling for some reason or other. Just look at the lackluster i3.
 
#36
Let me set some facts straight from what i know: (I am a Tesla Bear so you can ignore me)

BMW will have 3 Series Middle Module built into CLAR based 3 Series, the battery is next gen Samsung batteries (maybe same as used in i3 Facelift, maybe even better but not much) release is set shortly after 3 Series Sedan, most likey the current 3 Series GT will be dedidicated Battery Only Electric car, maybe even selling under i Brand, so expect it somewhere late 2018 early 2019.
The 90 kwh middle CLAR module can also be used in other vehicles as everything up from 3 series will be using the CLAR.
There is also another small SUV under i brand in development, maybe both will be shown this spring, its also most likely CLAR based but will come before 3 Series.
BMW is abandoning its all carbon , next EVs will be built using light weight steel from Thyssen Krupp for chassis and some carbon parts.



Then 2020 new battery (imo 2021 more likely) from Bosch is set be used, if its for real, expect 50% density jump at same cost, IF its for real.
 
#37
Yggdrasill said:
BMW could make a compelling BEV, but my money is on them not doing so. As mentioned, battery supply is a major issue, and even assuming it weren't, do we really think BMW would make a compelling electric 3-series, at something like 35k USD, to compete with similarly priced gas and diesel versions? The gas and diesel cars is where BMW makes it's money.

I think it is 90% certain that this car won't materialize, and if it does materialize, that it won't be compelling for some reason or other. Just look at the lackluster i3.
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They called it eDrive Sport. To me that sounds like a performance version and not like a 35k car.
 
#38
The price wont be below 50k$ (you may get discounts from dealers though) it will come pretty loaded though, they do not target naked base Model 3, they want butter not the bread.
MB will also have Crossover Sedan in 2018 for the same price. MB apparently knows the plans of Tesla, they think 35k version wont come until 1 year after Model 3 launch at best, that would likely be early 2020 or so. Tesla needs economies of scale to lower the battery cost and enable them to sell at least the near zero margin naked Model 3. If Tesla is able to jump start battery production to 60-70% of Gigafactory capacity, cheaper Model 3 maycome earlier it may come earlier. I doubt it.
Alternatively they may start selling them at loss hoping to reduce it as production ramps up.
 
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