Cosmacelf,
Just out of curiosity, did you go with solar? If so, which company did you use?
-
Want to remove ads? Register an account and login to see fewer ads, and become a Supporting Member to remove almost all ads.
My experience getting a dedicated EV TOU 2 electric meter with SDGE in San Diego
- Thread starter earlyretirement
- Start date
Cosmacelf,
Just out of curiosity, did you go with solar? If so, which company did you use?
Funny you should ask. So I'm at a crossroads right now. To offset a big chunk of our bill, we need to build a rather large array. Too big to fit on our south facing roofs. So ground mount. There is a hillside, south facing which would be ideal. The array is going to be big, and the wife doesn't like the idea of being able to see it, even though it's on a hillside that we would rarely ever see. So that's the first issue. Second issue is that the hillside is actually on a legal lot attached to our main house house lot, and the County of San Diego won't give us a normal solar permit unless the electric panel attachment point is on the same legal lot. So I can either go through a much more complicated (9 months min.) and expensive (like $10,000+) process for a two legal lot installation, or merge the lots, which only be a $5,000 cost and few month delay.
Third problem is that the County of San Diego (we don't live in a city), will not allow line side electrical attachments for solar, or for anything for that matter. Line side attachments are really the only sane way of attaching a large solar array, because otherwise you have to upgrade your electrical service, panel and feeder wires to accommodate a 600A or 800A panel. And that gets rather expensive, and IS TOTALLY UNNECESSARY, but only needed because the County has its head up its ass.
Oh, and fourth issue is that the one neighbor that would be able to see the ground mount doesn't like it and could obstruct our application in the HOA.
So I'm thinking of going back to square one and possibly installing two natural gas powered fuel cells which would provide continuous electricity (24x7), would be much smaller, and I could install on the main house property, would provide some continuous pool heat, which I'll want if we redesign the backyard and pool as we are planning to. And it acts as a backup power source when the grid goes down. And it produces much less electricity at once, so smaller panels are required even with the County's ^*&^&*-up rules. It will cost a bit more per kWh than solar, and not be as easy to maintain, and it will expose me to natural gas price fluctuations (but I suspect it will still always be cheaper than electric rates).
So, more information than you wanted?
Third problem is that the County of San Diego (we don't live in a city), will not allow line side electrical attachments for solar, or for anything for that matter. Line side attachments are really the only sane way of attaching a large solar array, because otherwise you have to upgrade your electrical service, panel and feeder wires to accommodate a 600A or 800A panel. And that gets rather expensive, and IS TOTALLY UNNECESSARY, but only needed because the County has its head up its ass.
Oh, and fourth issue is that the one neighbor that would be able to see the ground mount doesn't like it and could obstruct our application in the HOA.
So I'm thinking of going back to square one and possibly installing two natural gas powered fuel cells which would provide continuous electricity (24x7), would be much smaller, and I could install on the main house property, would provide some continuous pool heat, which I'll want if we redesign the backyard and pool as we are planning to. And it acts as a backup power source when the grid goes down. And it produces much less electricity at once, so smaller panels are required even with the County's ^*&^&*-up rules. It will cost a bit more per kWh than solar, and not be as easy to maintain, and it will expose me to natural gas price fluctuations (but I suspect it will still always be cheaper than electric rates).
So, more information than you wanted?
Cosmacelf, how much PV do you need? How much will your roof fit?
If you're talking about 600-800A panels, you must be thinking of 30 kW+ of PV? How big is your current panel/service?
One way to avoid upgrading your entire service, is to install a bigger panel, but keep the size of the main circuit breaker the same.
For example, let's say you have 400A service now, that would let you install 80A of solar (15kW inverter max) - the NEC says you backfeed up to 20% of your panel/service rating - in other words you can install up to 80A of PV on the same panel. This is done to avoid potentially overloading the busbars in the service panel - typically the busbars are rated at the same as the main breaker.
But let's say you really want to install 30kW (160A) - you have a couple options.
One is to do a line-side tap as you mentioned (unfortunately not an option I guess).
Another is to reduce the size of your main service breaker if you don't actually need a full 400A from the grid. You could install a 300A main breaker which would give you the overhead to install up to 180A of PV.
If you really need 400A service, then you could just install a 600-800A rated panel, but leave in a 400A main breaker. Either of these options would give you more room than you could ever possibly use!
One way to this without the hassle of replacing your main service panel is to install the new higher current panel (with the same 400A breaker) in front of your existing panel. Then your existing main panel is wired in as a sub-panel and you tie your PV into the new panel.
Also keep in mind that some panels have busbars that are rated higher than the main breaker (this is the same as downsizing the main breaker). This also might give you more room than you think.
Hope that makes sense!
If you're talking about 600-800A panels, you must be thinking of 30 kW+ of PV? How big is your current panel/service?
One way to avoid upgrading your entire service, is to install a bigger panel, but keep the size of the main circuit breaker the same.
For example, let's say you have 400A service now, that would let you install 80A of solar (15kW inverter max) - the NEC says you backfeed up to 20% of your panel/service rating - in other words you can install up to 80A of PV on the same panel. This is done to avoid potentially overloading the busbars in the service panel - typically the busbars are rated at the same as the main breaker.
But let's say you really want to install 30kW (160A) - you have a couple options.
One is to do a line-side tap as you mentioned (unfortunately not an option I guess).
Another is to reduce the size of your main service breaker if you don't actually need a full 400A from the grid. You could install a 300A main breaker which would give you the overhead to install up to 180A of PV.
If you really need 400A service, then you could just install a 600-800A rated panel, but leave in a 400A main breaker. Either of these options would give you more room than you could ever possibly use!
One way to this without the hassle of replacing your main service panel is to install the new higher current panel (with the same 400A breaker) in front of your existing panel. Then your existing main panel is wired in as a sub-panel and you tie your PV into the new panel.
Also keep in mind that some panels have busbars that are rated higher than the main breaker (this is the same as downsizing the main breaker). This also might give you more room than you think.
Hope that makes sense!
Funny you should ask. So I'm at a crossroads right now. To offset a big chunk of our bill, we need to build a rather large array. Too big to fit on our south facing roofs. So ground mount. There is a hillside, south facing which would be ideal. The array is going to be big, and the wife doesn't like the idea of being able to see it, even though it's on a hillside that we would rarely ever see. So that's the first issue. Second issue is that the hillside is actually on a legal lot attached to our main house house lot, and the County of San Diego won't give us a normal solar permit unless the electric panel attachment point is on the same legal lot. So I can either go through a much more complicated (9 months min.) and expensive (like $10,000+) process for a two legal lot installation, or merge the lots, which only be a $5,000 cost and few month delay.
Third problem is that the County of San Diego (we don't live in a city), will not allow line side electrical attachments for solar, or for anything for that matter. Line side attachments are really the only sane way of attaching a large solar array, because otherwise you have to upgrade your electrical service, panel and feeder wires to accommodate a 600A or 800A panel. And that gets rather expensive, and IS TOTALLY UNNECESSARY, but only needed because the County has its head up its ass.
Oh, and fourth issue is that the one neighbor that would be able to see the ground mount doesn't like it and could obstruct our application in the HOA.
So I'm thinking of going back to square one and possibly installing two natural gas powered fuel cells which would provide continuous electricity (24x7), would be much smaller, and I could install on the main house property, would provide some continuous pool heat, which I'll want if we redesign the backyard and pool as we are planning to. And it acts as a backup power source when the grid goes down. And it produces much less electricity at once, so smaller panels are required even with the County's ^*&^&*-up rules. It will cost a bit more per kWh than solar, and not be as easy to maintain, and it will expose me to natural gas price fluctuations (but I suspect it will still always be cheaper than electric rates).
So, more information than you wanted?
Wow. Sounds like a lot of hassles and red tape. I REALLY appreciate all the gritty details. I'm that type that enjoys reading all the details on a project like this. I serve with a guy on a BOD for a company and he told me he did a HUGE solar panel installation. He said he spent over $110k on it. He has a pretty big house. I'm not sure what he was spending on electricity before but I wondered how that will work out if he ever decides to sell his house.
I think the natural gas powered fuel cells sounds interesting. I believe natural gas prices should stay affordable long into the future. I had lunch with a TMC member this week and he said I live over in your neck of the woods. I'll send you a PM. We'll have to get together sometime.
Thanks again for all the great info.
- - - Updated - - -
I agree with you Randy that you have to start somewhere.
I was curious, when you have time. What is SDGE's stance on solar energy and all of these residential customers switching over to solar? I've been over to the SDGE Innovation Center and it's really amazing. But I was curious on what SDGE's stance is on people switching over to Solar? Are they for it, against it, neutral?
I thought a bit more about this - I'm guessing you are thinking of two 5 kW fuel cells, something like the ClearEdge system? I think it could make a lot of sense if you are able to utilize the waste heat from it to either help heat the pool or heat the house in the winter. What if you installed a one fuel cell and a smaller roof-top PV array? Then you get the best of both...
The NG powered fuel cells are interesting, but you have to have the right set up for it. Here's the info: http://www.clearedgepower.com/energy/purecellmodel5system/
Normally efficient fuel cell systems are much bigger and not suitable for houses. Even this unit (which is the smallest I've seen) will produce 3,600 kWh per month. So take a look at your bill, and if you use less than 3,600 kWh per month, then it probably wouldn't work for you. Also, to get the most out of the system, you need to use the heat it generates, which is about 20,000 BTUs continuously. If you have an outdoor pool without a pool cover, then that'll work, although if you have a stretch of hot sunny weather, it might get a bit warm.
- - - Updated - - -
drees - our replies crossed in the ether. Yes, a smaller PV and one Clearedge would work. I'll have to calculate the heat load of the new pool and see where I'm at on that.
In the end, you are saving money, but you have to go through a fair bit of work to get the savings. Installing these systems isn't a slam dunk, and then you have to maintain them.
Frankly, I'm absolutely appalled that the PUC sets rates so high that it is cheaper for a homeowner to generate their own electricity than it is to buy it from the utility. And it isn't a few percent either. It is a massive difference. Obviously the higher tier customers are essentially paying the most progressive tax scheme the world has ever seen so that urban condo users can feel their $40/month electric bill is too high (show me the smallest violin).
Utilities are none too pleased about this either. Utility scale electricity generation and distribution is much cheaper than roof mounted solar panels, but due to PUC rate structures, people are opting out of paying the high prices and installing solar. I'm not sure where this all ends, but from an economy perspective it is a MASSIVE mis-allocation of capital. Yes, you can feel all green about installing solar, but the reality is that burning our now abundant natural gas is a much cheaper way of generating electricity. So a huge amount of capital is being sucked away from the economy to finance a more expensive way of generating electricity. This is money that would otherwise be used to grow the economy. And that is one of many reasons why our economy is just bumping along rather than growing nicely.
Normally efficient fuel cell systems are much bigger and not suitable for houses. Even this unit (which is the smallest I've seen) will produce 3,600 kWh per month. So take a look at your bill, and if you use less than 3,600 kWh per month, then it probably wouldn't work for you. Also, to get the most out of the system, you need to use the heat it generates, which is about 20,000 BTUs continuously. If you have an outdoor pool without a pool cover, then that'll work, although if you have a stretch of hot sunny weather, it might get a bit warm.
- - - Updated - - -
drees - our replies crossed in the ether. Yes, a smaller PV and one Clearedge would work. I'll have to calculate the heat load of the new pool and see where I'm at on that.
In the end, you are saving money, but you have to go through a fair bit of work to get the savings. Installing these systems isn't a slam dunk, and then you have to maintain them.
Frankly, I'm absolutely appalled that the PUC sets rates so high that it is cheaper for a homeowner to generate their own electricity than it is to buy it from the utility. And it isn't a few percent either. It is a massive difference. Obviously the higher tier customers are essentially paying the most progressive tax scheme the world has ever seen so that urban condo users can feel their $40/month electric bill is too high (show me the smallest violin).
Utilities are none too pleased about this either. Utility scale electricity generation and distribution is much cheaper than roof mounted solar panels, but due to PUC rate structures, people are opting out of paying the high prices and installing solar. I'm not sure where this all ends, but from an economy perspective it is a MASSIVE mis-allocation of capital. Yes, you can feel all green about installing solar, but the reality is that burning our now abundant natural gas is a much cheaper way of generating electricity. So a huge amount of capital is being sucked away from the economy to finance a more expensive way of generating electricity. This is money that would otherwise be used to grow the economy. And that is one of many reasons why our economy is just bumping along rather than growing nicely.
Just updating to post the rate charts from SDGE with the new price increases.
EV TOU 2 rates:
https://www.sdge.com/sites/default/files/regulatory/schedule_ev-tou_090113.pdf
Residential Regular Rates:
https://www.sdge.com/sites/default/files/regulatory/schedule_dr_090113.pdf
Source: Total Residential Electric Rates | San Diego Gas Electric
EV TOU 2 rates:
https://www.sdge.com/sites/default/files/regulatory/schedule_ev-tou_090113.pdf
Residential Regular Rates:
https://www.sdge.com/sites/default/files/regulatory/schedule_dr_090113.pdf
Source: Total Residential Electric Rates | San Diego Gas Electric
JPP
Active Member
Cosmacelf---do you have enough east-west facing roof? FWIW, SolarCity just did a 16kW/63 panel install exclusively using east-west roof. They used Canadian Solar panels with SolarEdge load balancing modules and special SolarEdge inverters to accommodate the change in output by panel/string.
I thought I'd take the time to post a brief update. Since installing my TOU dedicated meter, I never got an electricity bill for the past 2 months. I guess so few people (they told me less than 50 people in all of San Diego) have one that billing gets confused. Anyway, after calling in several times over the past month or so and not getting anywhere, I emailed Randy at SDGE and he helped me solve the problem. Once again, Randy was very helpful. It's 2 months late but I did finally get the bill.
I've been keeping a detailed spreadsheet daily of my charging just for my own records and the SDGE exactly matched up. There were just some small taxes added on to what I estimated my bill would be at the super off-peak rate.
Thanks again Randy!
I've been keeping a detailed spreadsheet daily of my charging just for my own records and the SDGE exactly matched up. There were just some small taxes added on to what I estimated my bill would be at the super off-peak rate.
Thanks again Randy!
Interesting that SDGE limits your super off peak times to sometimes only three hours per day, and normally only 5 hours per day. With such limits to charging times it might pay for higher amperage charging (HPWC) and twin chargers!
https://www.sdge.com/sites/default/files/documents/415468291/2013_ev-tou2.pdf
https://www.sdge.com/sites/default/files/documents/415468291/2013_ev-tou2.pdf
Hi Lloyd.
On that daylight savings time calendar that you posted, both the starting and ending times of the 5 hour super off peak are shifted during the fall and spring timeframes for a bit. That will eventually be taken care of and remedied, but for now it is not a 3 hour window. The times for super off peak shift from 12-5am to 1-6am...Same 5 hour window...
On that daylight savings time calendar that you posted, both the starting and ending times of the 5 hour super off peak are shifted during the fall and spring timeframes for a bit. That will eventually be taken care of and remedied, but for now it is not a 3 hour window. The times for super off peak shift from 12-5am to 1-6am...Same 5 hour window...
If you own a house, tou-2 without the dedicated meter will save you money versus regular rates. Note that tou-2 doesn't have tiers. Switching to tou-2 (once you have your car) is easy. Switching back from tou-2 is also easy. So I'd suggest just switching to tou-2 and if it costs you more (unlikely), you can always switch back.
A separate meter is rarely a win due to the cost of installing it, etc.
If you can move most of your usage to before noon or after 6pm, EV-TOU2 will likely be a big win. We do things like run the cloths washer after 6, and run the dish wash after midnight, to use less of the peak rate electrify (which is more than tier 4 rates during the summer)
Another advantage of a single meter and EV-TOU2 rates, is that if you add solar later, you get credit at the peak rate for electricity you produce but don't use during peak time. So for example during summer, you solar is credited at $.44/kwh, but the electrify you use off peak costs you only $.20, and the electric to charge (midnight to 5am) only costs you $.16/kwh.
PM me if you want to talk about it in person sometime. I've spent a lot of time checking all the options, rates, etc.
- - - Updated - - -
I believe you can only switch rate planes once every 12 months (to keep people from switching to take advantage season advantages, etc) I recommend downloading you usage info from SDG&E running it through a spread sheet or a site like Bidgley.com.
For many people, EV-TOU2 can save quite a bit of money. For people with Solar, it's almost always a win if you charge your car after midnight, even if you are home all day and run the AC lot, etc., but it does vary so it's not one size fits all.
I just got a letter today from SDG&E saying the summer rates are going up to $.49 peak, $.22 off peek and super off peak is staying the same at $.16
If you have solar, this is good news, since they will be crediting you more for unused peak production.
If not, you bill will likely go up, especially if you have AC.
If you have solar, this is good news, since they will be crediting you more for unused peak production.
If not, you bill will likely go up, especially if you have AC.
Yep, solar plus EV-TOU2 has been awesome for me. And the higher the peak rate, the better.
GoBlue88
Member
You guys are lucky your utility allows this. Dominion in Virginia won't allow solar with TOU/EV plans. If they did, the panels would already be on my house.
wamochi
Member
i just got my first TOU bill and i'm a little confused. we have solar. it says my "applied generation credit" is $171. why does SDGE put that number in BOTH the NEM Charges column and Applied Credits column? My Remaining credits column is an accumulated amount, now at ($677), but does that mean I got a real credit of $171? I don't get it. they charged minimum charge of $4.93, but that's it.
sorry for my lack of experience with TOU2 - we were on regular tiered NEM billing for 7 months until we got the Model S so this month's bill is very weird. i tried to do the math myself too and i don't know how they get it. they don't really "show the math" like they did with tiered billing either
-662 on peak
384 off peak
514 super off peak
total 236 kwh used
last month on tiered billing without the Tesla, i got -673 kwh and a credit of $171 with the tiered billing. so this month i used 909 more kwh with the car and more liberal AC and STILL get a credit of $172 with TOU? i was going to call SDGE but thought i might try the experts on the forum first :wink:
Similar threads
- Article
