Model S reliability issues

[CUBldr97]

seems like you are trying to nuke the issue.... either your in or you are out... from all i have read over the years the car is very reliable... I own a leaf....the only issue the leaf has is range anxiety...I just have to plan my day well, and find a charger if i need to drive more than 80 miles in one day with out a charge... If you are looking to just experience the joy of no gas/ no oil changes and a reliable car, try the LEAF for a two year lease....(with the govt rebate its basically free for those two years.)

From all I have read the model s stacks up better than any luxury or sports car that is comparable (cost)... I'm in the market next year, assuming i find a new job (retiring from the military) and when my lease is up on the leaf.

MHO anyway....

 

[ToddRLockwood]

It would probably be impossible to define "major" that would suit everyone.
An unplanned > 1hr of outage, making the car undrivable (or drivable without doing damage to the car), I thought was a good metric to go by.

Buggy door handle - well if you can't get inside the car is an issue. I'd say if I can get in even through the tailgate, its a way out in an emergency .. as long as I can get out that is
Clicking steering linkage - I'm not mechanically inclined, I'd be worried about that.

I live 3-hours away from my regional service center. Tesla has always been very quick to dispatch a ranger to do repairs for me and the other 15 owners in my area. In 36K miles, I've never had a problem that prevented me from driving my car.

Most door handle issues DO NOT prevent one from being able to get into the car. And, as I pointed out in my previous comment, even if the drivers door handle won't open the door, you can always open the door by reaching over from the passenger seat. The interior door latches are mechanical, not electric, so they always work—even with a drained 12V aux battery.

The steering link click was a common issue on early cars (up to mid 2013), and is completely harmless. Tesla has a simple fix for it that can be done at the service centers or even by a ranger. The problem is due to stress at the steering rack mounts and usually only occurs when turning the steering wheel while the car is stationary.

 

[BoerumHill]

I didn't vote as I didn't fit into any of the categories.
We have a 2012 Signature which has had a number of issues, most minor, a couple not so minor that would fit in your "reliability" category.
We have not, however, been without a loaner for more than an hour (actually, not more than 5 minutes) and the loaner was always another Model S.

Our 2013 has had a few minor issues, noisy pano roof, squeaky seat belts, but nothing that fits your "reliability" description.

In the case of both cars, the issues cropped up in the first year to year and a half. Both have been perfect in the latest year to year and a half.

It is the first model fully engineered in house by a new auto maker. They went through, and will likely to continue going through some growing pains.
They have learned from their mistakes very quickly and have always taken care of any issues we have had quickly, with zero inconvenience to us.
I have been inconvenienced more, anytime I went to get an oil change in our old ICE vehicles.

So much so that we have traded in our 60 and have a 70D on order.

Great post, thank you.

 

[Zextraterrestrial]

I had a couple of loaners and am 250 mi from service. A few issues but after 1 1/2 (2nd annual) my 2012 has been amazing

 

[Zythryn]

Good point! Per your description, I'd say, you haven't had MAJOR issues. You should vote (in positive).
...

Actually, I've had three motor replacements and two battery (the big ones) replacements spread across two cars.
At each one, I received a loaner Model S. Only once was the car undrivable, but again, I received a loaner and suffered no inconvenience.

As for the HPWC, I haven't heard of issues with it, however, it is always good to have a backup. We don't use the HPWC, just a NEMA 14-50 outlet.

 

[kuttakamina]

Actually, I've had three motor replacements and two battery (the big ones) replacements spread across two cars.
At each one, I received a loaner Model S. Only once was the car undrivable, but again, I received a loaner and suffered no inconvenience.

As for the HPWC, I haven't heard of issues with it, however, it is always good to have a backup. We don't use the HPWC, just a NEMA 14-50 outlet.

Man oh man! Those are indeed Major.

Its good that you didn't suffer inconvenience, but
- If you were out of warranty you'd be really screwed .. in my mind, I'm adding 4k to the price.
- and if for any reason, Tesla's customer service goes downhill, these experiences won't be as pleasant going forward.

Their customer service I think will slide. Long list of reasons why, won't bore you with them here, unless you want me to.

Also,

I really really appreciate everyone responding to the poll and adding comments here.
This interaction with existing owners is extremely valuable to potential buyers like me.
I am not thanking everyone to keep traffic on the thread low, I wish there was a "like" functionality.
But I am reading every comment, every response, and I am sure many will find the experiences very useful.

 

[skilly]

If you know anything about statistics, you know that when doing a survey the data you get is worthless if the participants do not properly represent the entire group you're trying to gauge.

In other words: either you poll all Model S owners, which is impossible. Or you create a statistically selected group that is representative for all owners (age, location, model, time of ownership etc. etc.). Creating such statistical selections is very hard. Getting people to answer a survey is even harder. You will always have non-respondents. If you're doing things properly you have to analyze how the non-responders are different from those who do respond. Often you find that for example that disgruntled owners are more likely to answer such a study then those who are neither happy nor unhappy. (This is called an attrition-analysis is makes for much more robust conclusions).

Also, remember that the outcome you're trying to get data on: the car being "reliable" is not in fact a type of hard, objective data point. It's not like weight, top speed, price. It's subjective. What you mean by reliable is not necessarily what someone else may mean by it.

So in conclusion, if you are really interested in what you're asking there is really no way for you yourself to get proper data.

Especially here where you find mostly defenders of the brand with practically every move that TM makes. Where you will find data to some extend is consumer reports.It has a long history of testing cars in the same manner. And, despite what Johan mentions in terms of it being subjective, as cars are all measured the same subjective way you can uncover some comparisons with other cars in its class and draw some conclusions around its reliability. Its not an exact science, but it will get you closer to the truth you seek.

- - - Updated - - -

Man oh man! Those are indeed Major.

Its good that you didn't suffer inconvenience, but
- If you were out of warranty you'd be really screwed .. in my mind, I'm adding 4k to the price.
- and if for any reason, Tesla's customer service goes downhill, these experiences won't be as pleasant going forward.

Their customer service I think will slide. Long list of reasons why, won't bore you with them here, unless you want me to.

Also,

I really really appreciate everyone responding to the poll and adding comments here.
This interaction with existing owners is extremely valuable to potential buyers like me.
I am not thanking everyone to keep traffic on the thread low, I wish there was a "like" functionality.
But I am reading every comment, every response, and I am sure many will find the experiences very useful.

There are ALWAYS outliers with any experience. And, with the questions you are asking, the negative outliers will surface before anything else.

 

[kuttakamina]

Especially here where you find mostly defenders of the brand with practically every move that TM makes. ..
There are ALWAYS outliers with any experience. And, with the questions you are asking, the negative outliers will surface before anything else.

Shouldn't the defenders cancel out the negative outliers?
I realize that no survey including this one is 100% accurate.
This poll is additional information to what is already on the internet.

Only Tesla has 100% accurate information , and they aren't boasting loudly about their reliabilty record either.

 

[islandbayy]

OPINION: My 2013 is/has been very un-reliable. 54,000 miles, less then 2 years ownership. I have had around 14 loaners, and to the service center more then I'd care to admit. High Voltage Pack Replacements, All door handles, 12v (Records dont show it was replaced, however, original was Grey, current battery is orange, might have been done when my high voltage pack was replaced), Drive Train, which didnt fail, but was what I would call borderline, water leaks into tail lights, which is still a on-going issue, however, at least they lasted a year this time around, at 10 UMC's, though, the last one did work, it was pro-actively replaced to try and solve a charge port issue. Charge Port replaced, J1772 adapter (ONLY THE ADAPTER) inserted, car immediately went into panic mode and "locked" up. Needed tow to service center, and magically the car released the J1772 adapter the next morning. Water in headlights, and other random problems that are too numerous to keep track of (too minor).
So at least, in my opinion, the Model S is VERY un-reliable. It's only left me stranded once when the pack's contactors failed, and a second time in my driveway when the j1772 adapter locked up the car (Never figured out why and never happened again),

Now, when it runs and drives, best car in the world, however, the small issues are excessive, and do wear on ones patients and overall view of the vehicle. In Hindsight, due to the quality improvements that are on the vehicles now, I should have lemon the car out in first year of ownership. I stuck with it, hoping to be growing pains. It's starting to level off now with the issues, but now my backup camera is getting fuzzy image.

I have a sub, 10,000 vin, and I can attest whats being built now, is 1000x better quality then what was put out in early 2013.

 

[Zythryn]

Shouldn't the defenders cancel out the negative outliers?...

No, defenders will never cancel out the negatives in an online forum.
People with no issues are less likely to take the time to voice their opinion online.
Simple matter of marketing and human psychology.
Your best bet is to take a look at owners surveys such as Consumer Reports (not the editorials, but the actual owner surveys).

Our first car was the 116th signature car built. It was very early and I expected issues.
Our 60kWh was an early 2013 built car. It has had fewer issues, but still had the motor and battery pack (contractor) replaced once. Since then, it has been rock solid.
There are others that have had more issues, and others with less.

If you feel service will be less in the future (I don't), I would recommend financing it through Tesla. That way you get the price gaurentee. After three years you can walk away from the car and make no further payments (as I understand it).

 

[kuttakamina]

OPINION: My 2013 is/has been very un-reliable. ...
I have a sub, 10,000 vin, and I can attest whats being built now, is 1000x better quality then what was put out in early 2013.

islandbayy, I have watched EVERY SINGLE video you have put on youtube, many videos more than once. Huge thanks for sharing your experiences.
When you say that "I can attest whats being built now, is 1000x better quality then what was put out in early 2013" ... can you please elaborate on that?
Is this personal experience based on loaners, or long term owners that are people you know?

Like you say, when it drives, it drives like a dream! But a loaner can't possibly tell you the long term reliability story.

 

[AnOutsider]

islandbayy, I have watched EVERY SINGLE video you have put on youtube, many videos more than once. Huge thanks for sharing your experiences.
When you say that "I can attest whats being built now, is 1000x better quality then what was put out in early 2013" ... can you please elaborate on that?
Is this personal experience based on loaners, or long term owners that are people you know?

Like you say, when it drives, it drives like a dream! But a loaner can't possibly tell you the long term reliability story.

Can't speak for IB, but personally, the fit and finish of the newer cars (loaners) seem much better. That, as you say, doesn't speak to reliability, but can be an indication of overall quality improvements.

 

[islandbayy]

islandbayy, I have watched EVERY SINGLE video you have put on youtube, many videos more than once. Huge thanks for sharing your experiences.
When you say that "I can attest whats being built now, is 1000x better quality then what was put out in early 2013" ... can you please elaborate on that?
Is this personal experience based on loaners, or long term owners that are people you know?

Like you say, when it drives, it drives like a dream! But a loaner can't possibly tell you the long term reliability story.

Thank you! I appreciate the comment.
As for newer cars, getting the number of loaners I have, I have been able to see the gradual improvements as things progress. Things functioning better, fit and finish, noise reduction, responsiveness.

One example, even after door handle replacement, they still have a delay before extension. This has been since day one. Sometimes requires them to be pressed multiple times. Where as new production, barely touch them and they are already extended.

Drive train clunks, got to the point where my drive unit could ECHO the clunk between houses on my street before it was finally replaced. And, that was after a bit of a scary incident where I almost ended up in a lake due to a unexplained shutdown of many functions, Traction Control, ABS, Power Steering and something else that escapes my mind. Never did find out what caused that, but no problems with that since drive unit. Also, clunks have NOT returned.


I could make this a massive 20 page post if tried, but Tesla has improved things. I will also make sure to state, Service has been Absolutely Spectacular every step of the way. Shout out to Highland Park SC!!!


Now, while improvements have been made on the newer cars, they also have some new quirks that drive me nuts, so the point that I would not want to upgrade. This has nothing to do about reliability, but functionality.
1: Cruse and turn signal levers: While the new placement is more intuitive, the cruise stalk is much shorter. I have small hands, I cannot reach the cruise now without moving my hand a great deal or letting go of the wheel.
2: TACC..... That alone kills the new cars for me. Get some snow or ice on the front sensor, and now no cruise control at all. "Cruse Disabled, Contact Tesla Service". The TACC itself, absolutely horrible response. It would race up and then hit the brakes, rinse and repeat. Drove me bat crap crazy. The new Cruise Control alone, would make me not upgrade. I hate to say it, but 95% of my driving is with cruise, which is why I place so much emphasis on it.
3: Parking Sensors, the new 4 zone is nice, but still cant detect the concrete parking stops or curbs when pulling in or backing.
4: REGEN REGEN REGEN!!! Changes were made... Now it works like crud on the new Auto-Pilot hardware cars. When I let off the accelerator, of course depending on my SOC, but for sake of argument, 50% SOC, regen jumps right to 60kW, and brings me down nice and slow without needing brakes. Every new Autopilot enabled car i've driven, with 6.2 and newer, Let off the accelerator, the Regen jumps to 30kW, and stays their for .5 to 2 seconds, before continuing to 60kW. Literally, it feels like the car is hesitating to regen. After 2 years and 54,000 miles with my car, this is a completely un-natural feeling, and I almost got in a accident. Cant blame the car for a accident, as I am the driver, but remember, virtually "identical" car, 2 years and 54,000 miles of habit take over. And each and every time, I would need to use brakes, where I would not have otherwise. This is a second upgrade killer for me.


I am currently looking at a CPO, as I would like the 85 pack and the unlimited mileage warranty. If my 60 had the Unlimited Mileage warranty, things would be different. I could "Survive" paying for minor repairs, however, 125,000 will be coming up quick. I plan on doubling my yearly driving this year over 2013 and 2014, so I give it 1 1/2 years before everything on mine is void. A Motor Failure or Battery failure out of warranty at present, would leave a very expensive brick in my driveway while I scrape up cash to have units fixed or swapped. I have the tools and equipment to do the repairs myself, BUT, without service manuals from Tesla, or software to be able to get replacement parts working, I'd be SOL.
Through my youtube channel, I attempted to collect donations to upgrade to a 70D, to enable me to continue testing Tesla equipment and the latest and greatest. That ended quickly with death threats, and threats to my Children and Family. So I am looking for alternative methods. Unfortunately, due to the mileage on my car, trade in value is relatively low, so it's going to cost me, but a CPO is looking good right now for the warranty, before my car IS worth nothing (The "D" release absolutely slaughtered the value of all non "D" cars. I don't care what anyone says, that was a Nail in the coffin for any value what so ever. I'd say a instant 20k depreciation in the time frame of 1 day when Elon made his "D" announcement. It was almost like "driving off the Dealer Lot" for a second time).


/End_Opinions

 

[BoerumHill]

islandbayy - I have definitely NOT watched all 797 videos at Kmanauto. But I am a subscriber and I do have scroll down a LONG time to find fresh material. I am deeply indebted to you for the knowledge you've imparted.

However, I have to call BS on the $20K drop in value with the D announcement. Glancing at the CPO consecutive consolidator on my iPhone - should pull this into Excel to confirm - there have been 27 S60s listed on the 24 day old CPO site. 14 sold, and just eyeballing it, the average sale price is around $58K, with a spread of 50,250 - 67,250. For the 13 unsold listings, the average price looks to be around $67K, with the range being $60K - $76.9K. The lower priced models go quick - 9 of the 13 sold cars lasted a week or less.

The CPO S60 is now the entry point for many interested buyers for whom a new model is a bit too much of a stretch. There is plenty of demand, I can assure you.

Anyway, that's just like, my opinion, man. Keep 'me coming, Kman!

 

[islandbayy]

islandbayy - I have definitely NOT watched all 797 videos at Kmanauto. But I am a subscriber and I do have scroll down a LONG time to find fresh material. I am deeply indebted to you for the knowledge you've imparted.

However, I have to call BS on the $20K drop in value with the D announcement. Glancing at the CPO consecutive consolidator on my iPhone - should pull this into Excel to confirm - there have been 27 S60s listed on the 24 day old CPO site. 14 sold, and just eyeballing it, the average sale price is around $58K, with a spread of 50,250 - 67,250. For the 13 unsold listings, the average price looks to be around $67K, with the range being $60K - $76.9K. The lower priced models go quick - 9 of the 13 sold cars lasted a week or less.

The CPO S60 is now the entry point for many interested buyers for whom a new model is a bit too much of a stretch. There is plenty of demand, I can assure you.

Anyway, that's just like, my opinion, man. Keep 'me coming, Kman!

Pricing has changed a bit then. Trade In Value though is fairly low. I will need to see how many of those CPO's have 50,000+ miles on em though.

 

[BoerumHill]

Pricing has changed a bit then. Trade In Value though is fairly low. I will need to see how many of those CPO's have 50,000+ miles on em though.

Zero. Of the sold S60s, one at 35.9K, another at 30K. Of the unsold 60s, nothing above 18K.

You wanna dump your lemon on city slicker, shoot me a PM.

 

[jerry33]

The issue I am trying to get to is, if Model S was your only car, and you have an important meeting to be at or a plane to catch, can you count on your car to not give up on you at the most unfortunate times?

Given that criteria, my Model S has never let me down. When the charger went out on vacation, the Ranger flew out and changed it and the only driving time I lost was the time he was putting it in. I was never unable to drive the car. The battery warning came on a few weeks ago and the Ranger replaced it at my office, so no outage there.

My Model S is about 1000 times more reliable than the VW TDI that I had, which had to be towed several times because the battery kept shorting out (once a year). The Model S battery lasted two years and didn't cost $189+tax to replace, and it warned me about it rather than just not starting. I lost a two weeks because the engine blew in the TDI. Headlights did good if they lasted a month. The windows fell off their tracks. The door trim melted. The list of problems is practically endless. The VW TDI was the most disappointing (and expensive) car I ever had.

 

[spacegeek]

Picked up my 2012 CPO P85 six weeks ago--it had ~28K miles on it. I figured it would have had all the kinks worked out by now. Uh, nope! Nothing major has occurred, but of the 6 weeks (one was Thanksgiving and the car did not get driven as I was out of town), I've had 5 minor things occur! So I've been to Tesla Service every week! I've had BMWs for 20 years, and I've never had anything like this...

What has gone wrong? Passenger door handles won't open, charger port won't open, 12V battery pre-emotively needed replacement, rattles and buzzes that Make Me Crazy, and now the tire pressure monitor system needs service. (And no, not low tire pressure.)

These are minor things, but the wait for 4 years was to hope that things would be better now. Was my mistake picking a 2012? Probably. But why didn't these things already manifest? And should I expect to be in the shop each week going forward?

I'm anxious that my beautiful baby is going to be sick all the time! Not to mention the time it takes to manage the issues...Thoughts?