As intriguing as a battery swap option sounds, I don't believe that is in the cards for the Model S. A few weeks ago I was on the phone with a charging problem and happened to ask for worst case scenario. The technician said that worst case is a battery swap, which in itself would not take that long, but would require that the car remain with them for two days (essentially leaving it overnight) for comprehensive testing. This car is a not a cellphone and it wasn't designed as a battery swap vehicle. For that system, one needs to check out the model being built in China via Kandi Technologies.
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Elon's tweet:
"There is a way for the Tesla Model S to be recharged throughout the country faster than you could fill a gas tank."
I don't see how swapping a car qualifies as recharging. Even though you get a fully charged battery (or a 90% charge) it still isn't recharging faster than filling a gas tank. That may be a technicality, but it seems there is something else going on.
That's the thing about revolutionary ideas; they can turn out to be very different but very simple and cause everyone to wonder why they didn't think of it themselves.
I don't see how swapping a car qualifies as recharging. Even though you get a fully charged battery (or a 90% charge) it still isn't recharging faster than filling a gas tank. That may be a technicality, but it seems there is something else going on.
That's the thing about revolutionary ideas; they can turn out to be very different but very simple and cause everyone to wonder why they didn't think of it themselves.
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anticitizen13.7
Not posting at TMC after 9/17/2018
I have a lot of stuff in my car that I like to have with me during long trips though. Add it luggage, and the time needed to transfer all the stuff, and it could be a lot more than 3 minutes. Also consider the impact of children, car seats, and pets!
Bardlebee
Member
I would really like to see Elon come out, very Tony Stark esque and debut a new battery charging tech that blows away modern science with a flourish.
Then I remember we are in reality
Then I remember we are in reality
Citizen-T
Active Member
I've been thinking about this. The biggest problem that I see with battery swapping is that if you show up and there are no batteries then you are screwed. This is the reason why they need so many batteries to support one station, you need to prepare for the worst case.
So, what if every battery station was also a supercharging station? You would go to the station hoping there is a battery for you, but worst case, you would be spending 45 mins changing.
By charging for the battery swap but offering supercharging for free, they could create an incentive for those that don't really need a swap to just use the charger (for instance, you need a pit stop anyway). Leaving the batteries available for those that really need them.
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk HD
So, what if every battery station was also a supercharging station? You would go to the station hoping there is a battery for you, but worst case, you would be spending 45 mins changing.
By charging for the battery swap but offering supercharging for free, they could create an incentive for those that don't really need a swap to just use the charger (for instance, you need a pit stop anyway). Leaving the batteries available for those that really need them.
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk HD
SebastianR
Active Member
That's the reason I hope we will not have swapping stations: Remember a few years ago, when everybody would have a laptop and 2 spare batteries to cover a day's worth of work? Today, if you need it, you can get laptops that do 1 day of work without the need to charge and consequently, most computers have a fixed, built-in battery. Also, computers typically charge quick enough / there are enough plugs around so that I never think of the battery capacity of mine.
Now, I realize we are not quite there yet with regards to cars but I hope Tesla does not focus its attention onto a technology that will (must) be obsolete in just a few short years.
A quicker super charger is and will be the way to go, swapping the pack creates a ton of problems from pack logistics, to questions of pack capacity, to massive amounts of capital being tied-up in stations and packs etc.
My sense is that the tweet of Elon relates to the same math as "500 USD true cost of ownership" for the leasing. I bet there is a national average time for gas station visits that includes times to line-up at the pump, waiting time for cash payment etc. If you then take higher than 1C charging and a horrible gas guzzler as a comparison I'm sure you get close in terms of time between super charging and being at the pump.
Bardlebee
Member
It would be crazy if the supercharger announcement included the "bar" of the "H" we saw in their future plans and Elon simply put his money down to fund it. Then you could literally travel cross the country for FREE.
CapitalistOppressor
Active Member
From the 10k -
"our capability to rapidly swap out the Model S battery pack and the development of specialized public facilities to perform such swapping, which do not currently exist but which we plan to introduce in the near future"
Why is there still debate on this? There are dozens of news stories in 2009 alone about how the Model S was being designed for rapid battery swaps, in the 1-5 minute range. Tesla has always been clear that the car had this capability.
The only question was whether they would invest in developing and deploying swapping stations.
As to the economics, folks who say this is expensive and impractical probably haven't done the math. The more I model it the more sense it makes, and that was true before we found out Tesla was going to do this.
For folks talking about Tesla not having hundreds of millions of dollars to invest in this, they announced $200m in CapEx for 2013 at the last conference call, supposedly for "service centers". Thats a flippin lot of service centers. Do we really imagine dozens of major service facilities sprouting up across the country this year? How does that make sense?
Yea, as much as I'm not really a fan of battery swapping (or perhaps better to say I love the idea of SCs, seems so much more cleaner/elegant), this change in wording from the previous 10Qs sure stands out as a flashing neon sign of intent.
I know the batteries were made to be swappable, but I have to wonder how well the bolts would hold up under repeated battery replacement. Gas caps and such are built for constant use. I've seen tire lugnuts get stripped after too many times of being done and undone and tires don't get swapped nearly as often as a battery might.
Totally solvable problem though I suppose and it'd be covered under warranty.
My bet is on Metal-Air exchange battery while keeping Li-Ion main battery like Phinergy.
Tesla has many patents on a Metal-Air/Li-Ion battery approach.
Aluminum Air battery has a theoretical specific energy of 8.14 KWh/Kg and aluminum is about $2200/metric ton.
In theory the range extender battery could use about 42 Kg of aluminum which is a volume of about 25 cm3.
This could give a range of about (42Kg*8.14 KWh/Kg)*(265 miles/85 KWh) ~ 1067 miles range.
The cost of the aluminum is about $2200/1000 Kg) * (42 Kg) ~ 92 dollars.
If this is the plan I am sure Tesla is considering a closed cycle manufacture/usage/recycle to contain costs.
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here is the patent application number 20120041625
Abstract:
A method of optimizing the operation of the power source of an electric vehicle is provided, where the power source is comprised of a first battery pack (e.g., a non-metal-air battery pack) and a second battery pack (e.g., a metal-air battery pack). The power source is optimized to minimize use of the least efficient battery pack (e.g., the second battery pack) while ensuring that the electric vehicle has sufficient power to traverse the expected travel distance before the next battery charging cycle.
Tesla has many patents on a Metal-Air/Li-Ion battery approach.
Aluminum Air battery has a theoretical specific energy of 8.14 KWh/Kg and aluminum is about $2200/metric ton.
In theory the range extender battery could use about 42 Kg of aluminum which is a volume of about 25 cm3.
This could give a range of about (42Kg*8.14 KWh/Kg)*(265 miles/85 KWh) ~ 1067 miles range.
The cost of the aluminum is about $2200/1000 Kg) * (42 Kg) ~ 92 dollars.
If this is the plan I am sure Tesla is considering a closed cycle manufacture/usage/recycle to contain costs.
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here is the patent application number 20120041625
Abstract:
A method of optimizing the operation of the power source of an electric vehicle is provided, where the power source is comprised of a first battery pack (e.g., a non-metal-air battery pack) and a second battery pack (e.g., a metal-air battery pack). The power source is optimized to minimize use of the least efficient battery pack (e.g., the second battery pack) while ensuring that the electric vehicle has sufficient power to traverse the expected travel distance before the next battery charging cycle.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
I find that unlikely. The Model S does not have a place for the metal air battery and the appropriate electronics/connectors for it.
mitch672
Active Member
Never say "never" with Elon Musk at the helm. Who's to say that a metal-air battery couldn't be combined with the lithium battery in the same physical enclosure used now? The lithium battery can be smaller, doesn't need to be 60KW or 85KW, 35 or 40 might be plenty combined with a massive range metal-air battery. This new pack could be swapped in at one of the new "SuperSwaper" stations.
You need to think out of the box here, use an unconventional approach. This new pack is going to be used for long road trips or cross country travel, to minimize SuperCharger stops, maybe they only need 4 of these SuperSwapers to cover the entire country...(NY, 2 in the central states and LA). You pickup the pack on either end (NY/LA), stop twice for 2 stops, change back to a pack the same sized you started with at the beginning. Cross country with 4 stops. No ICE can come close to this...
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Quote does not say anything about current model S owners
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The Aluminum-air battery is small and not rechargeable and is compact/lightweight.
It is meant to be used then removed to recycle.
It could be made as removable modules for long trips that are exchanged by the driver (like propane tanks for BBQ grills)
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The Aluminum-air battery is small and not rechargeable and is compact/lightweight.
It is meant to be used then removed to recycle.
It could be made as removable modules for long trips that are exchanged by the driver (like propane tanks for BBQ grills)
I suspect a chemistry change would require crash testing unless Tesla can somehow convince the government the fire/explosion hazards aren't any different.
So, here's something I don't think has been mentioned earlier.
There IS a way to greatly increase the charging speed of a Supercharger. The big limiting factor in charging is the ability to keep the battery cool. Lithium batteries can be charged very quickly if kept cool - that's why the S has liquid cooling.
But, the radiator uses ambient air to do so. Supercharging, even more so - the car isn't moving while charging (I can't recall if the S has fans for it's radiators - I don't see them in any of my pictures of the chassis at the dealers).
Assuming you can have a cable thick enough to handle > 120 kW and still flexible enough to move by hand, you could increase the charging ability by simply forcing cold air through the battery's cooling radiator.
All that requires is some sort of fitting which would conform to the front of the car and blow cold air in.
If this is automated (drive up, open your charge port, let the charging robot do the rest), then you can eliminate the need for the cable to be flexible.
Seems simple to me, but I'm probably missing something.
But I do think it's a lot easier to achieve than battery swapping.
There IS a way to greatly increase the charging speed of a Supercharger. The big limiting factor in charging is the ability to keep the battery cool. Lithium batteries can be charged very quickly if kept cool - that's why the S has liquid cooling.
But, the radiator uses ambient air to do so. Supercharging, even more so - the car isn't moving while charging (I can't recall if the S has fans for it's radiators - I don't see them in any of my pictures of the chassis at the dealers).
Assuming you can have a cable thick enough to handle > 120 kW and still flexible enough to move by hand, you could increase the charging ability by simply forcing cold air through the battery's cooling radiator.
All that requires is some sort of fitting which would conform to the front of the car and blow cold air in.
If this is automated (drive up, open your charge port, let the charging robot do the rest), then you can eliminate the need for the cable to be flexible.
Seems simple to me, but I'm probably missing something.
But I do think it's a lot easier to achieve than battery swapping.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
I'm talking specifically what cb32000 proposed, which is to keep the current battery and swap only the metal-air one. This would require a separate space and connectors for the metal-air battery.
If it's talking about a hybrid battery in the same enclosure then the logistics of that is not significantly different from what we are already discussing (since it would require swapping the entire pack).
The way I'm reading the quote is that this will happen within the next couple of months (part of Elon's 5 part trilogy). Not something that is more far off.
Of course the super-supercharger option would be viable if they are close to qualifying a li-ion/graphene chemistry battery.
The papers have these at the same energy density and 10x the charge time.
A nice paper from Elon/JB would be the current state of the art and near future of batteries for EV's. Nothing the experts at all the manufacturers don't already know, just a status from an automakers perspective.
The papers have these at the same energy density and 10x the charge time.
A nice paper from Elon/JB would be the current state of the art and near future of batteries for EV's. Nothing the experts at all the manufacturers don't already know, just a status from an automakers perspective.
InTheShadows
Active Member
I'm not convinced its battery swapping. Does anyone know the size if the wires that are on the charge port? If we know the wire size we can figure out the maximum current that can be pumped into the batteries. The wires were probably designed with this max current in mind. If we know the wire size we can calculate the theoretical max wattage that can be pushed to the batteries.
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