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Mission Motorcycles

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#42
I wondered what you've been up to Mark besides test rides. Nice vid. I like the about a $1.80 to fill it (17KW at 11 cents per kW/Hr) but chafed a bit at the hype on recharge times. I'm not sure how you get an hour recharge using a 10 kW charger on a 17 kW/hr battery. It also sounds like you said 140 miles of highway range which seems a bit much. My Zero 11.4 DS is lucky to get 70 miles at 70 mph on flat warm sunny South Florida interstates. I suspect drag on the Mission will be a bit more given the bigger bike.

It's an awesome bike all by itself. Like the MS, getting people to ride it might be a better bet than setting unrealistic expectations and opening yourself up to scrutiny; especially on range which is something we all test as soon as we pick something up. I know I was really miffed when my 9DS that was supposed to go 60 miles at 70 mph left me stranded on the Turnpike on the way home from the dealer.

I'm really looking forward to getting mine. You can not build it fast enough for me (and I suspect a lot of other people). Keep up the good work.
 
#44
The range quotation thing is a problem for everyone, 2 or 4 wheels, ICE or EV. Everyone needs to play by the same rules so you can get an apples to apples comparison. That means using EPA numbers. Otherwise if Mission quotes a more realistic 120-mile range and then CRP comes along and quotes the same 120-mile range based on EPA numbers but the bike sells for $10k less it puts Mission in a bad light. Tesla has the same problem w/ Model S although there isn't anyone else building anything close to 85kWh. But when the 40kWh car existed they had the problem. The 40 had a realistic, drive it like you want range of 100 miles. But the Nissan dealer will say the Leaf goes 100 miles. The Tesla costs $25k more. See where I'm going with this?

So then you have to get into all these qualifications about the parameters to get to that range. Yes, someone who knows EVs will know to ask about battery capacity instead of range but most people don't know to ask about that. So for now we have little choice but to stick w/ EPA numbers which are wrong for ICE's and EVs but at least it allows one to compare models from different manufacturers.

As for me, I almost never ride on the street so "range" to me means, can I do 7 20-minute track sessions with 35-minutes of charging on a 14-50 in between each session? I'm hoping the 15kWh can do that as I'd rather avoid the weight of the 17.

At the end of the day, Mission seems to be following Tesla's playbook for good and ill. They're building a great product based on what I rode a few weeks ago but at the same time the company is saying a lot of stuff, some of which won't happen, just like Tesla and Elon have done. So far most of us have cut Tesla slack with their timing and promises because the core of the vehicle is so good. I hope Mission is able to do the same. As long as the bike rides well, I will put up with a glitchy UI or whatever. But I don't need a GPS to find my way around a track - if you plan to ride on the road that might be a deal-breaker for you. In all it will be an interesting couple years!
 
#45
of course, it may actually get 140+ (more, really) than 140 miles range :)





lolachampcar said:
I wondered what you've been up to Mark besides test rides. Nice vid. I like the about a $1.80 to fill it (17KW at 11 cents per kW/Hr) but chafed a bit at the hype on recharge times. I'm not sure how you get an hour recharge using a 10 kW charger on a 17 kW/hr battery. It also sounds like you said 140 miles of highway range which seems a bit much. My Zero 11.4 DS is lucky to get 70 miles at 70 mph on flat warm sunny South Florida interstates. I suspect drag on the Mission will be a bit more given the bigger bike.

It's an awesome bike all by itself. Like the MS, getting people to ride it might be a better bet than setting unrealistic expectations and opening yourself up to scrutiny; especially on range which is something we all test as soon as we pick something up. I know I was really miffed when my 9DS that was supposed to go 60 miles at 70 mph left me stranded on the Turnpike on the way home from the dealer.

I'm really looking forward to getting mine. You can not build it fast enough for me (and I suspect a lot of other people). Keep up the good work.
Click to expand...
 
#46
Just got a note from MM. They are expecting first customer deliveries to be next Summer. Not sure where that will put me but likely winter. Later than I had hoped but just like my Model S I would rather get it later and working well than early with problems. So deliver me a perfect product, I'll wait!

They also announced a 24 month unlimited mile warranty (most ICE's are 12 month) and a 5 year 60k mile powertrain warranty along with a financing option.
 
#50
I noticed an update on Mission's site which provides some hope that things are progressing. Of particular interest are the following items-

Top Speed - 140+ mph
Weight
12 kWh 490 lbs
15 kWh 510 lbs
17 kWh 540 lbs

Charging Time
...........Direct DC......220V...110V
12 kWh <30 minutes 1 hour 10 hours
15 kWh <30 minutes 1 hour, 25 mins 12 hours
17 kWh <30 minutes 1 hour, 40 mins 14 hours

First, there are 3 KWhr for 20lbs followed by 2 KWhr for 30 lbs. Seems that might have this backwards.

Second, Direct DC charging in under 30 minutes for a 17KWHr battery. This would indicate at least a 34 KWHr plus efficiency loss source. It would also seem to imply the bike could actually be used to go somewhere. I wonder if Mission is going to install their own country wide DC fast charging network????

Mark, care to offer some insight?
 
#51
Glad to see things are moving along.

I did have a question which I couldn't seem to find an answer to on the site.

There is an option for a twin charger. In the descriptions, it says that with one charger it does 4.5kW and with the twin, it does 9kW. I wanted to know what the charge time estimates for 220V were based on. I'm going to go out on a limb and say they are based on the 9kW version. So can we safely assume we just double that number with single chargers? We're still talking only 3 hours of charging time for the 15kW battery which is still fine in my opinion.

I guess I'm trying to decide whether the twin charger option is worth it or not...
 
#52
The old single/twin charger concept does not agree with the recharge times. I suspect that idea has been shelved in favor of a more aggressive on board charger concept. This concept must be at least 17KWHr plus efficiency loss if it is going to replenish the largest option in an hour as charge rate will taper at the end (meaning the first part of the charge must be way more than 17KWHr). Given that these specs are new and come when they are actually certifying and starting to build product, I see them as an insight into what they are actually going to deliver.

It will be fun to find out when the bike shows up on my doorstep this summer :)
 
#53
lolachampcar said:
The old single/twin charger concept does not agree with the recharge times. I suspect that idea has been shelved in favor of a more aggressive on board charger concept. This concept must be at least 17KWHr plus efficiency loss if it is going to replenish the largest option in an hour as charge rate will taper at the end (meaning the first part of the charge must be way more than 17KWHr). Given that these specs are new and come when they are actually certifying and starting to build product, I see them as an insight into what they are actually going to deliver.
Click to expand...
That single/twin charger item is no longer valid. Now that the patents have expired they are going to use the motor as the charger like the 1.x Roadsters did in order to save weight. IIRC from a verbal conversation w/ them the motor method is good for 10kW. But maybe it's higher based on the charge times you posted.
 
#54
lolachampcar said:
The old single/twin charger concept does not agree with the recharge times. I suspect that idea has been shelved in favor of a more aggressive on board charger concept. This concept must be at least 17KWHr plus efficiency loss if it is going to replenish the largest option in an hour as charge rate will taper at the end (meaning the first part of the charge must be way more than 17KWHr). Given that these specs are new and come when they are actually certifying and starting to build product, I see them as an insight into what they are actually going to deliver.

It will be fun to find out when the bike shows up on my doorstep this summer :)
Click to expand...

Thanks for the insight. I was a bit confused by all that for sure.

They should remove the twin charger option I suppose.

lola, are you getting the R or the RS?
 
#55
lolachampcar said:
Second, Direct DC charging in under 30 minutes for a 17KWHr battery. This would indicate at least a 34 KWHr plus efficiency loss source. It would also seem to imply the bike could actually be used to go somewhere. I wonder if Mission is going to install their own country wide DC fast charging network????
Click to expand...
I'm sure they're going to go w/ Chademo or SAE Combo plug. I've also heard that EVSE providers like Coloumb are working on stations that could do both.
 
#56
I'm getting the R (too cheap for the RS and no longer do track work with bikes http://www.lolachampcar.com/images/bill%20at%20sebring.jpg :) ).

The 15 seems like the sweet spot. I just talked with Mark who confirmed the weights so, yep, the extra three only costs you 20lbs. Mark also confirmed the charge times which means there is a honking big onboard charger. Strider's info would seem to confirm using the motor/controller for charging as well which should reduce weight.

WRT Chademo, what rate can they support? They seem to be mostly in California. I sure wish MM had the clout to do a deal for the Tesla SuperChargers. That would be insane!
 
#57
lolachampcar said:
I'm getting the R (too cheap for the RS and no longer do track work with bikes http://www.lolachampcar.com/images/bill%20at%20sebring.jpg :) ).

The 15 seems like the sweet spot. I just talked with Mark who confirmed the weights so, yep, the extra three only costs you 20lbs. Mark also confirmed the charge times which means there is a honking big onboard charger. Strider's info would seem to confirm using the motor/controller for charging as well which should reduce weight.

WRT Chademo, what rate can they support? They seem to be mostly in California. I sure wish MM had the clout to do a deal for the Tesla SuperChargers. That would be insane!
Click to expand...

Ouch, that look like it hurt -- any lasting damage?

I think the 15 is the sweet spot also. Since this is a sport bike, I won't be doing any long trips with it, even though bike trips can be fun. Sport bikes just aren't comfortable enough. Plus I have another awesome electric-mobile for trips. :)

Glad to see the charge times are correct. Hopefully, using the motor as charger will eliminate the twin charger cost and maybe even bring down the overall cost of the bike.

Doesn't Mark (and/or other MM engineers) come from Tesla? Their design philosophy, their environmental thinking, their graphical UI is so reminiscent of Tesla, I thought it was a given that these were some former Tesla engineers. I asked Mark a while back in an email, but he must have been busy -- he skipped that question. :) All that to say that if they do, maybe they are still on good terms and Tesla would let them use the superchargers... although even the big 17kW battery doesn't give us enough range to hop between superchargers...
 
#58
That particular running out of talent was shortly before I got married many many years ago. My wife was not impressed with my not being able to shake hands at my wedding (with my normal right hand due to a cracked bone) but otherwise I came out unscathed. Those yahoo days are long gone and I approach speed with a lot more respect.

I did not know Mark used to work for Tesla. He never mentioned that :)
 
#60
I agree, it would be epic if MM inked a deal with Tesla to use the supercharger network!

lolachampcar said:
I'm getting the R (too cheap for the RS and no longer do track work with bikes http://www.lolachampcar.com/images/bill%20at%20sebring.jpg :) ).

The 15 seems like the sweet spot. I just talked with Mark who confirmed the weights so, yep, the extra three only costs you 20lbs. Mark also confirmed the charge times which means there is a honking big onboard charger. Strider's info would seem to confirm using the motor/controller for charging as well which should reduce weight.

WRT Chademo, what rate can they support? They seem to be mostly in California. I sure wish MM had the clout to do a deal for the Tesla SuperChargers. That would be insane!
Click to expand...
 
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