Lucid Air Will Be Better Than Model S, Says Former Tesla Engineer

[thx1139]

EA has a very large network comparable to Tesla's Supercharging Network. I don't think this will be a problem for Lucid.

That very deceiving. It isnt just stations that matter. It is the number of fast chargers at each station. From what I can gather from Electrify America website they have 435 stations and 435 fast chargers. While Tesla has over 800 sites and over 1800 fast chargers.

 

[BlindPass]

I’ve been driving Tesla‘s for nearly 3 years. And before then had other plug-ins. I have more than 100,000 miles of EV travel.Traveling more than a few hundred miles requires a robust charging network. As a game I plan my routes using other networks as well. It is spotty at best. Those of us who do not live on either coast have concerns. But they will be addressed in time and probably quickly.

It’s ironic how the sensationalism of range anxiety is now in favor of Tesla. I didn’t anticipate that when having these same discussions with those bias towards ICE.

How often do you travel “a few hundred miles” in a single drive?

EA vs SC are just differing degrees of sub-optimality. If you’ve accepted the inconvenience that Tesla and SC is over a PHEV/ICE, the current slide to EA isn’t a big deal imo, and may be an improvement over the course of ownership.

We travel from South Florida to Minnesota. We’re not doing that on either charging network.

 

[BlindPass]

That very deceiving. It isnt just stations that matter. It is the number of fast chargers at each station. From what I can gather from Electrify America website they have 435 stations and 435 fast chargers. While Tesla has over 800 sites and over 1800 fast chargers.

EA claims they’ll have 800 sites and 3500 chargers by the end of 2021. The buildout will be quick. Unless you plan to drive a Lucid for only a few months, being on EA is unlikely to be a significant deterrent.

 

[diplomat33]

I have never charged at a EA station, but have looked at a few and I think there is usually only 2 fast chargers at one location. That seems like it could be a problem during busy weekend travel.

I drive the route from Chicago to Faribault, MN and to Minneapolis often and there are not a lot of EA along the way (but still more than enough).

But 500+ miles of range will compensate for the lack of fast chargers since you won't need to stop for charging as much. And EA has charging stations nicely spaced out across the US.

500+ miles of range + Electrify America Network seems fine to me. I don't think I would have any range anxiety with that, certainly not more range anxiety than I would have with 300 miles range + Tesla SC Network.

 

[mrmage]

It’s ironic how the sensationalism of range anxiety is now in favor of Tesla. I didn’t anticipate that when having these same discussions with those bias towards ICE.

How often do you travel “a few hundred miles” in a single drive?

EA vs SC are just differing degrees of sub-optimality. If you’ve accepted the inconvenience that Tesla and SC is over a PHEV/ICE, the current slide to EA isn’t a big deal imo, and may be an improvement over the course of ownership.

We travel from South Florida to Minnesota. We’re not doing that on either charging network.

I take about a half dozen road trips each year from N. Cal whose total distance is 1000 miles or more round trip. The quantity, speed, and availability of the charging network, comfortable cabin, and autopilot are my most important considerations.

Because the perfect product or service does not exist, all products and services are suboptimal, which is not a reason to ignore a feature. Needless to say, the supercharger network is a huge plus for me.

However, I believe Lucid's 9.9 seconds quarter mile and 500 mile range will be a non-feature by the time they ship. I'll bet that Tesla will counter with similar or better specs within 12 months.

Maybe as early as Sept 22 or when plaid comes out, because EM does not typically let competitors bask in the sun for more than a month or two.

 

[dfwatt]

From the presentation, it seems like Lucid learned all the lessons from Tesla of what a great EV needs to be. They basically copied Tesla's formula to a tee but added more luxury and better tech. They focused on range and efficiency, fast charging network, interior space, integrated tech with large display, connected app, FSD hardware and OTA updates. They will also offer powerwalls for home use. And they even have similar design studio and service centers as Tesla.

Yes that's a good summary. I would add a couple of concerns. I think both the Porsche Taycan and the Lucid Air make it pretty clear that the Tesla Model S is now long in the tooth and needs a whole lot more than new sheet metal. The hatchback design compromises its structural rigidity, its handling and responsiveness are way below Tesla's Model 3, the Porsche Taycan and possibly below the Lucid as well, it's relatively noisy, and it really still does not have the best space utilization at least compared with the Model 3.

Lucid appears to be going strictly after the top end of the market. Smart strategy because that's where the Tesla S is going to be weakest and more vulnerable due to its aging Design. Coming out with competition for the model 3 is another story. I'll be very curious to see if Lucid even tries anytime soon meaning in the next 3 or 4 years. Their technology is impressive particularly the 900V architecture, their battery density, and as far as I can tell, their commitment to excellence across the board. I suspect that their quality control is significantly better than Tesla's. That's another thing that Tesla must clean up. Having the ability to use the battery as house energy storage is another big advantage on Tesla. They must believe that this is not going to degrade longevity or pose any kind of warranty challenge which suggests that they have reduced degradation relative to the Tesla battery packs.

Lots of questions though including how many charge and discharge Cycles the battery can tolerate, and my big concern, how many fast Chargers is the Electrify America Network going to have in the next year. Forget about using this for long distance travel if you cannot get fast charging at least close to the supercharger Network. I wonder if Lucid would consider a contract with Tesla to allow their cars to charge on the Tesla network with an adapter. I suspect Tesla will likely say no way to that but it sure would help Lucid if they did allow that under contract. One has to suspect that there's a certain amount of Bad Blood at this point between Musk and Rawlinson that might preclude any Cooperative agreements or technology sharing. Too bad if that's so because again they're both supposed to be on the same team of sustainable energy and transportation infrastructure.

 

[kavyboy]

EA claims they’ll have 800 sites and 3500 chargers by the end of 2021. The buildout will be quick. Unless you plan to drive a Lucid for only a few months, being on EA is unlikely to be a significant deterrent.

Yeah, but that's Elon time.
Hey, wait, no it's not! It might actually happen.

 

[jimmym1981]

But 500+ miles of range will compensate for the lack of fast chargers since you won't need to stop for charging as much. And EA has charging stations nicely spaced out across the US.

500+ miles of range + Electrify America Network seems fine to me. I don't think I would have any range anxiety with that, certainly not more range anxiety than I would have with 300 miles range + Tesla SC Network.

I have to agree with this. We are so spoiled with the Super Charger network, but realistically this is the easiest and cheapest option to scale, especially partnering with another company for growth. One day someone will create a "gas station" for just charging and begin to franchise those out and the days of range anxiety will be gone.

 

[jelloslug]

But 500+ miles of range will compensate for the lack of fast chargers since you won't need to stop for charging as much. And EA has charging stations nicely spaced out across the US.

500+ miles of range + Electrify America Network seems fine to me. I don't think I would have any range anxiety with that, certainly not more range anxiety than I would have with 300 miles range + Tesla SC Network.

Have you used an EA charger yet?

 

[dfwatt]

But 500+ miles of range will compensate for the lack of fast chargers since you won't need to stop for charging as much. And EA has charging stations nicely spaced out across the US.

500+ miles of range + Electrify America Network seems fine to me. I don't think I would have any range anxiety with that, certainly not more range anxiety than I would have with 300 miles range + Tesla SC Network.

There is some truth to this but in the main 500 miles of range doesn't get you really anywhere in the United States if you're doing long road trips, except for more local travel. For example we travel frequently to the West Coast and to the southeast. 500 miles just means that we've got fewer charging stops. We don't want to drive 10-15 miles out of the way or longer to get a fast charge somewhere so I'm not really sure that this extra range obviates completely the need for a distributed network of fast Chargers. It helps, but it's not any version of a replacement for that Network or a total solution. Tesla has made it clear that easy access to superchargers is a sin qua non for widespread adoption of EVs. Electrify America will at some point be competitive with the supercharger Network. The question is when.

 

[Mo City]

From the presentation, it seems like Lucid learned all the lessons from Tesla of what a great EV needs to be. They basically copied Tesla's formula to a tee but added more luxury and better tech. They focused on range and efficiency, fast charging network, interior space, integrated tech with large display, connected app, FSD hardware and OTA updates. They will also offer powerwalls for home use. And they even have similar design studio and service centers as Tesla.

They certainly copied the blueprint and made some changes, which was a good idea. It's all about execution now. As we know from Tesla, scaling up is far and away the hardest part.

Not having FSD hardware in their non-$170K versions may be a non-starter within a couple of years. It should be an upgradeable option.

"Better tech"? Let's see after Battery Day. They probably did themselves a favor having this prior to Sep 22.

I wish them long term success.

 

[Altair7]

I think both the Porsche Taycan and the Lucid Air make it pretty clear that the Tesla Model S is now long in the tooth and needs a whole lot more than new sheet metal.

You and I seem to be the among the few surprised that the ancient Model S design has been surpassed.

We need to bring another car into the family soon, and it's Interesting comparison between the S and Lucid Touring model, which are within the budget and similar money:

- Touring only has 400 miles range, not the teaser 517. Charge points become more important. S wins big here.

- Touring has more range the Performance S - anything less than 400 is a non-starter for me. And Touring has better performance than the LR. It kind of sits between the two S offerings.

- Touring wins hands-down on efficiency and drive technology. And charge times fast enough to convert ICE owners.

- Interior space is another Touring win. However, S hatchback offers versatility.

- And speaking of interiors, Lucid say "luxury". Model S says "Toyota".

- I can buy a S this winter. Lucid I have to wait for.

Not sure what the bottom line is yet. It will be interesting to see Tesla's response to this.

Don't know if I can wait that long though. Maybe my best decision is to buy a stopgap ICE car and get the EV in early 2022.

 

[dfwatt]

You and I seem to be the among the few surprised that the ancient Model S design has been surpassed.

We need to bring another car into the family soon, and it's Interesting comparison between the S and Lucid Touring model, which are within the budget and similar money:

- Touring only has 400 miles range, not the teaser 517. Charge points become more important. S wins big here.

- Touring has more range the Performance S - anything less than 400 is a non-starter for me. And Touring has better performance than the LR. It kind of sits between the two S offerings.

- Touring wins hands-down on efficiency and drive technology. And charge times fast enough to convert ICE owners.

- Interior space is another Touring win. However, S hatchback offers versatility.

- And speaking of interiors, Lucid say "luxury". Model S says "Toyota".

- I can buy a S this winter. Lucid I have to wait for.

Not sure what the bottom line is yet. It will be interesting to see Tesla's response to this.

Don't know if I can wait that long though. Maybe my best decision is to buy a stopgap ICE car and get the EV in early 2022.

I'm neither surprised nor troubled that a roughly 10 year old design has been surpassed by somebody who knew all about its strengths and weaknesses anyway. I think it's great for the field at the Lucid air appears to incorporate a lot of really advanced technology. It's also really expensive so it should be nicer in terms of interior and and a bunch of other ways too.

It's a real throw down to Tesla and it underscores some of the weaknesses in their Flagship sedan that are obvious to anybody. It'll be interesting to see what their response is. Competition is great for the field, and Tesla has shown the way that Eevee's are first of all sexy, and attractive, enormously fun to drive but also practical, and over the long-term, affordable.

 

[diplomat33]

Not having FSD hardware in their non-$170K versions may be a non-starter within a couple of years. It should be an upgradeable option.

This is incorrect. If you go to the Design Studio, FSD comes standard on the Air Grand Touring ($139k) and is an available upgrade option on the Air Touring ($95k). The only unknown is the sub $80k version since the details are not available.

 

[jimmym1981]

All in all, this is a great thing for Tesla I believe. Something to push Elon, even more, to become better. It's great to see another manufacture come to market with a luxury EV and if successful, do the same as Tesla did. It cannot be Tesla forever and deep down inside, we all know that.

 

[dfwatt]

All in all, this is a great thing for Tesla I believe. Something to push Elon, even more, to become better. It's great to see another manufacture come to market with a luxury EV and if successful, do the same as Tesla did. It cannot be Tesla forever and deep down inside, we all know that.

As Elon Musk himself said he would be the first person to cheer if successful competition comes along and even takes over the market. We'll see if he's that gracious. In any case it is great to have competition and someone who out Teslas Tesla. At the very least it will make Tesla address the gaps and deficiencies that they have, make them less complacent, and force them to bring their A-game as well. The marketplace and all of us who are potential consumers of this technology are the beneficiaries.

 

[diplomat33]

All in all, this is a great thing for Tesla I believe. Something to push Elon, even more, to become better. It's great to see another manufacture come to market with a luxury EV and if successful, do the same as Tesla did. It cannot be Tesla forever and deep down inside, we all know that.

Absolutely! I wish more Tesla fans had this attitude.

The fact is that competition is good. It spurs innovation and progress. If we had a EV monopoly of just Tesla on top, then there would be no incentive for Tesla to ever improve. Tesla would become complacent and tech would stagnate. And that would be bad for Tesla owners. I believe Lucid will force Tesla to be better which will be good for Tesla fans because we will have better Tesla cars as a result.

 

[jimmym1981]

As Elon Musk himself said he would be the first person to cheer if successful competition comes along and even takes over the market. We'll see if he's that gracious. In any case it is great to have competition and someone who out Teslas Tesla. At the very least it will make Tesla address the gaps and deficiencies that they have, make them less complacent, and force them to bring their A-game as well. The marketplace and all of us who are potential consumers of this technology are the beneficiaries.

100% agreed. I think once Tesla gets all the factories/plants opened and can upkeep production, we will start to see the changes we really have been asking for. Elon wanted to bring an affordable EV to the mass market, which he has done. I will say I think the CyberTruck could've waited and he could've used that energy and time to button up the 4 models we have now or focus on the Semi more. It was so sad to see that semi video the other day plow through cars like butter. We need the semi on the road more than the truck IMO.

 

[diplomat33]

As Elon Musk himself said he would be the first person to cheer if successful competition comes along and even takes over the market. We'll see if he's that gracious.

It is easy for Elon to say that he wants competition when there was none on the horizon. But I doubt that Elon actually wants serious competitors to take over the market because then Tesla would lose money. As much as Elon acts like he just wants to save the planet, the fact is that Tesla is still a business and businesses need to make a profit to exist.

 

[Gasaraki]

Before you dispute that, remember he is the engineering mind behind the Tesla Model S. Anyone who claims they can make a better EV than the Tesla Model S will be doubted. No one to date has managed to prove right on such claims. Make no mistake to mix these guys with Peter Rawlinson: He...
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It well better be. $160,000 is not Tesla money.