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Leather options - Environmental / Ethical

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Yes. Wouldn't be horrible if we one day discovered that plants were conscious and aware in some way? I don't know that this will happen but we've certainly discovered stranger things so it wouldn't surprise me.

Waxing philosophical for a moment, life isn't possible without death. We kill grass and insects just walking around. Our existence consumes resources - some of which are finite that could have sustained something or someone else. The water I drink comes from reservoirs created by damming up rivers and creeks. Doing that radically changed the downstream ecosystem which killed things that used to live there. The house I live in was built from trees that I'm sure were farmed - radically changing that ecosystem - which again killed things. It's built on land that used to be orchards that used to native habitat. The PVC piping used in my house (and the plastic sheathing on my ethenet cables and electrical wires ... and more) - made from oil. Which is dead things that were then extracted and processed using methods that altered local ecosystems - which killed things. Food is just another link in that chain of death.

The takeaway here is that from an ethical and moral standpoint, living in a way where you have a reasonable impact on the world around you is a difficult and complex issue. I certainly don't know the right answer. I think we all just do the best we can.

So I empathize with those who have gone vegetarian / vegan (which includes a member of my family, btw). They've made their choice out of the best of intentions. I've made mine which I think is based on at least reasonable intentions. One day we may have vat-grown protein that is lower ecological and ethical impact. That would be really nice. But until then, I do my best to support farmers and ranchers that raise their cattle, chickens, etc. in healthier more humane ways instead of the factory meat producers.

Sadly, many people don't have that option. They either can't afford it or their local stores don't give them the choice.

And since we're raising and killing the cows anyway, I'd rather buy the leather to promote using more of the cow that was killed for me instead of buying a synthetic - most of which are made using petrochemicals.

Why not textile seats, you ask? I used to be a big fan of textile seats - until I had kids. Then I discovered that good leather holds up far better to messes generated by young kids (and dogs of all ages) than cloth does. So now, we're all in on leather. Leather interiors on the cars and leather furniture. No more cloth until our kids are older and the dogs are gone.
 
I don't like the charged language like "murdered" which has no place in this debate. "Murder" applies only to humans and means "unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another." Even the repeated reference to "killing" is over the top to me. There are so many valid arguments to be made on the PETA side but I find it a shame that they seem to get lost in the over-the-top charged rhetoric and terrorist-like tactics that turns off so many people.

I'm not justifying the beef industry, I'm simply contrasting the factory farming with the farming my family does.

It's great there's farmers out there like you, Chris. The more of you, the less factory farms. I, for one, am happy for your animals, even without the foam mattresses and pedicures, but perhaps you can look into that... ;) I joke at turkey dinners that we have gone beyond "free range" and that the turkey just came back from an all-inclusive resort before being on our dinner table.
 
With all this talk of leather use in the Model S (and future vehicles) I wonder how many people have paid to have Tesla replace the leather on the steering wheel with something petroleum based such as vinyl. By doing so, the animal skin that is removed is thrown in the trash. I know of at least one owner in the Dallas area that had opted for that. I do firmly believe that the option for a 100% vegan Tesla should be an option without costing extra. If they can work with the supplier that makes the seats, surely they can work with the steering wheel supplier for a high-quality wood or vinyl option. You'd think this amazing California company would have embraced that. Fisker did great things with their interior, right down to using salvaged wood from forest fires.
 
We likely wouldn't have survived as a species if we didn't eat meat and our evolution as the type of species we are has greatly benefited from eating meat. That's just a fact.

"Killing animals and eating meat have been significant components of human evolution that had a synergistic relationship with other key attributes that have made us human, with larger brains, smaller guts, bipedalism and language. etc., etc., etc."

Should Humans Eat Meat? [Excerpt] - Scientific American

So according to Scientific American, AmpedRealtor and others wouldn't have the intelligence to make informed and educated judgments about the morality of being a carnivore, in fact they could not possible be who they are today, had their (our) ancestors not been carnivores for the past 200,000+ years.

I understand your personal choices, but just answer me this: Would you give it all up -- everything you are and everything you have -- if you could prevent your ancestors from 'murdering' animals? If you judge us, you judge them. But they're responsible for you being you. If, in fact, you like who you are today, where-in does the hypocrisy truly lie?
 
1) Until people stop eating steaks and burgers there are going to be dead cows and it's a waste not to use every part.

2) I'm not convinced that being vegetarian is good for growing kids (adults are another matter).

3) The tanning process is the main environmental problem with leather, although there are now some low impact tanning processes.

4) Leather isn't long lasting in cars.

5) Unless you want black, leather is the only option Tesla offers.

I would much rather have had grey fabric instead of leather but that wasn't an option.
 
All religions teach in some form that animals were put on earth for the benefit of man. Each individual needs to interpret how they choose to act.

Oh no, don't go there! Not religion or politics or we'll be off to the "snippy" thread in no time! ;)
BTW... Great cartoon.

So according to Scientific American [we] wouldn't have the intelligence to make informed and educated judgments about the morality of being a carnivore, in fact they could not possible be who they are today, had their (our) ancestors not been carnivores for the past 200,000+ years.

Yes. But now that we have our evolved brains from meat protein, we can make intelligent choices such as eating less meat and more beans or other sources of protein that were not as readily available to our ancestors as they are to us. Studies have shown that's good for our heart and makes us live longer besides the fact that it involves less animals.

1) Until people stop eating steaks and burgers there are going to be dead cows and it's a waste not to use every part.
2) I'm not convinced that being vegetarian is good for growing kids (adults are another matter).

Agreed on both accounts. We don't eat a lot of meat but made sure our kids ate it. I've seen a lot of sickly looking vegetarian kids (but many more obese carnivore ones).
 
Cattle are not raised to make leather. Leather is a byproduct of the meat industry. If you want to make an impact, don't focus on downstream consumers of a byproduct. Focus on those who cause the product to be created in the first place - beef eaters. Stop eating beef. That is where you should focus your energies because that is where you will make the greatest difference. If all leather consumption ended tomorrow, cows would still be slaughtered for their meat and the skins would go to waste. Not one cow would be saved. Is that a preferable outcome?
I'm a vegetarian and while I see why you think this is a logical argument, it's really a 'slippery slope' thought experiment. Should I eat beef stock because it's just made with the leftover parts? How about gelatin? Or lower-quality cuts of beef turned into ground - I can eat that too, because the cow wasn't slaughtered for the cheap cuts. Really I just have to avoid the filet and tenderloin, right? Everything else is cruelty-free. You see my point.

I think your argument also falls a bit into the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_relative_privation - there are bigger fish to fry so don't worry about the minnows.

This is not an attack - I avoid leather in everything (shoes, belts, etc) and have heard your view expressed to me many times. I just happen not to agree with it. And I am simultaneously glad I had the option of Textile and irritated that they didn't offer a high quality faux leather as does other high end brands like BMW.
 
I'm a vegetarian and while I see why you think this is a logical argument, it's really a 'slippery slope' thought experiment. Should I eat beef stock because it's just made with the leftover parts? How about gelatin? Or lower-quality cuts of beef turned into ground - I can eat that too, because the cow wasn't slaughtered for the cheap cuts. Really I just have to avoid the filet and tenderloin, right? Everything else is cruelty-free. You see my point.

I think your argument also falls a bit into the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_relative_privation - there are bigger fish to fry so don't worry about the minnows.

This is not an attack - I avoid leather in everything (shoes, belts, etc) and have heard your view expressed to me many times. I just happen not to agree with it. And I am simultaneously glad I had the option of Textile and irritated that they didn't offer a high quality faux leather as does other high end brands like BMW.

And I, for one, really appreciate your approach on this. Instead of attacking others, you talk about what you do and believe. Role modeling is always more effective than lecturing. :)

I would love if Tesla offered options that made everyone happy. I would not like it if they excluded options just to make some happy.
 
I'm not convinced that being vegetarian is good for growing kids (adults are another matter).
My kids are vegetarian and not only perfectly healthy (my going on 4 year old who's never once been to the doctor outside of regular visits, a feat the doctor marvels at every 6 months) and sorry to brag but the smartest kids in their age group. You know that most primates, including a good number of human tribes for thousands of years, are vegetarian? The only thing you seem to gain from meat is saturated fat which is the biggest killer of humans via heart disease.

I'm not advocating you become vegetarian, that's a personal decision. But don't lean on the false pillar of "it's healthier for kids" because there's not only no evidence for it, there's ample evidence over hundreds of generations that kids thrive on a vegetarian diet.
 
My kids are vegetarian and not only perfectly healthy (my going on 4 year old who's never once been to the doctor outside of regular visits, a feat the doctor marvels at every 6 months) and sorry to brag but the smartest kids in their age group. You know that most primates, including a good number of human tribes for thousands of years, are vegetarian? The only thing you seem to gain from meat is saturated fat which is the biggest killer of humans via heart disease.

I'm not advocating you become vegetarian, that's a personal decision. But don't lean on the false pillar of "it's healthier for kids" because there's not only no evidence for it, there's ample evidence over hundreds of generations that kids thrive on a vegetarian diet.
Please understand that I've been vegetarian for about forty years. However there's not enough evidence on either side to say which is better for children. Evolution indicates that our brains increased in size because they had the proper proteins to do so and there was environmental pressure that increased the survival chances of those with larger brains. Now it's likely possible to do this with vegetable protein (and modern diets have way too much protein) but you have to be very careful that growing children get enough of the right kinds. There are a couple of cases where people have killed their kids with a strict vegan diet (the last one I read about was in France).

Note that countries with vegetarian diets generally produce shorter people. In the modern world there is evolutionary pressure to produce taller people as tallness often equates with popularity and success.
 
Say what you want about beef and leather but when I order prime rib, I'm quite confident that I'm not putting the cow population at risk and that cows can be raised in a sustainable fashion.

More greenhouse gas emissions go into the atmosphere from raising animals for food than the entire transportation sector. See the United Nations study: Livestock's Long Shadow Livestock's long shadow: environmental issues and options

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Yes. Wouldn't be horrible if we one day discovered that plants were conscious and aware in some way? I don't know that this will happen but we've certainly discovered stranger things so it wouldn't surprise me.

We KNOW animals have nervous systems with pain receptors - they feel pain, form emotional bonds with other animals and people, and have complex languages ... the idea of "what if plants do too?" is a great excuse to dismiss the fact that our society teaches us to love some animals (cats, dogs, horses) and yet eat others with the same intelligence or greater and treat them horribly as if they have NO FEELINGS - which is CLEARLY known to NOT be true. Your philosophical hope that plant consciousness will excuse it is just.... nevermind.

Nikola Tesla had this to say on this subject: "On general principles the raising of cattle as a means of providing food is objectionable. It is certainly preferable to raise vegetables, and I think, therefore, that vegetarianism is a commendable departure from the established barbarian habit. That we can subsist on plant food and perform our work even to advantage is not a theory but a well-demonstrated fact. Many races living almost exclusively on vegetables are of superior physique and strength. There is no doubt that some plant food, such as oatmeal, is more economical than meat, and superior to it in regard to both mechanical and mental performance. Such food, moreover, taxes our digestive organs decidedly less, and in making us more contented and sociable, produces an amount of good difficult to estimate. In view of these facts every effort should be made to stop the wanton, cruel slaughter of animals, which must be destructive to our morals." - Nikola Tesla

Albert Einstein this:
"Nothing will benefit human health and increase the chances for survival of life on Earth as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet." - Albert Einstein

And Leonardo DaVinci this:
My body will not be a tomb for other creatures. - Leonardo DaVinci


See article: The World's Greatest Geniuses are Vegetarians. | elephant journal


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I don't like the charged language like "murdered" which has no place in this debate. "Murder" applies only to humans
Really? Says who????

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where's Lelani's P85D vegan car going to come from?

It's going to come from the Tesla Factory in Fremont I presume?
 
It's going to come from the Tesla Factory in Fremont I presume?

Are you going to work with Fremont to have the steering wheel originally covered in non-animal skin? Most of the vegan Model S owners I know had the car delivered to the SC with leather and then an upholstery shop recovered it with a very nice looking vinyl. As you being a staunch vegan, I recommend demanding that this be done.
 
Are you going to work with Fremont to have the steering wheel originally covered in non-animal skin? Most of the vegan Model S owners I know had the car delivered to the SC with leather and then an upholstery shop recovered it with a very nice looking vinyl. As you being a staunch vegan, I recommend demanding that this be done.

Pardon my ignorance, but isn't this more wasteful?
 
Are you going to work with Fremont to have the steering wheel originally covered in non-animal skin? Most of the vegan Model S owners I know had the car delivered to the SC with leather and then an upholstery shop recovered it with a very nice looking vinyl. As you being a staunch vegan, I recommend demanding that this be done.

Pardon my ignorance, but isn't this more wasteful?

And it certainly doesn't result in the deaths of any fewer animals!

In fairness, even though I am not vegan or vegetarian (and have nothing against leather) ... if I WAS, I'd probably prefer NOT to have the skin of a dead animal under my hands daily, reminding me of things that I was morally opposed to. In this case, I think it would be appropriate to have it swapped out.
 
Are you going to work with Fremont to have the steering wheel originally covered in non-animal skin? Most of the vegan Model S owners I know had the car delivered to the SC with leather and then an upholstery shop recovered it with a very nice looking vinyl. As you being a staunch vegan, I recommend demanding that this be done.

The steering wheel in my P85+ was already dead animal free, as is the special Tesla Model S I am driving in upcoming film "Racing Extinction." These are the baby pictures of my Model S being born at Fremont:

Tesla P85+ Vegan High Priority 1 Fremont

Tesla P85+ Vegan High Priority 2 Fremont

Goodnight and good luck everyone. Many Tesla smiles to you all. Maybe I will see you down the electric road.
 
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The steering wheel in my P85+ was already dead animal free, as is the special Tesla Model S I am driving in upcoming film "Racing Extinction." These are the baby pictures of my Model S being born at Fremont:

Tesla P85+ Vegan High Priority 1 Fremont
Whoa - that's awesome. I wonder if I can contact my DS and get this added to my order?!

And to everyone else with your jerky judgmental comments, it's not appreciated. What if it's someone's religious belief that god doesn't want them using animal hides? (Leviticus 5:2 and 11:8 come to mind)

Sometimes having a strong moral belief is difficult. Ridiculing us for having the courage of our convictions doesn't reflect well on you.