Leather options - Environmental / Ethical

[mknox]

That being said, I do prefer the cloth seats. Not for ethical reasons, I just think they're more comfortable. Personal preference.

That is the most sensible thing that I think I've read in this thread. Just give people the choice. Those who are bothered by leather can simply not order it. I realize it's an issue with the P models that come with it standard, but I recall reading that Leilani Munter was able to special order her P85+ with cloth seats because of her own personal objections to leather.

 

[AudubonB]

Choose your battles carefully. You cannot - even Mr Musk cannot - win all of them. It appears to me the battle he has chosen requires quite a number of brigades - whole armies, really - as well as ammunition and other materiele, to preclude being able also to satisfy the predilections of each one of us. If it were me, for example, my druthers would be not to diddle around worrying about lobsters and moo-cows and so on; I would be happy were every purchase of an ICE vehicle to necessitate a concomitant sterilization of ten human beings. Would solve lots of problems in real short order.

 

[bonnie]

Cattle that graze on open pasture and that do not require that grains be raised and harvested to feed them produce nutritionally superior meat and are environmentally beneficial.

If you don't know where to buy pasture-grazed (make sure not 'grain finished') meat in your area from small family-owned farms, a helpful link for you: Eat Wild - Find Your State Or just google 'grass fed' with your zip code. Yes, it will be more expensive. It's also more nutrient-dense and flavorful. It can be tougher, but you just need to adjust your cooking technique.

I'm a big believer in supporting locally-owned whenever possible.

 

[mknox]

I'm a big believer in supporting locally-owned whenever possible.

Me too. In fact, that's one of the reasons I support EVs. Electricity is usually locally produced and the distribution network that brings it to your home is built, maintained and operated by your neighbors. It's not always locally owned, but likely more so than the petroleum companies. If you have solar, it's even more local!

 

[Zextraterrestrial]

Coalinga is painful ... and eye opening. While I haven't given up meat, I have gone to only purchasing meat from local family farms, where the animals are pasture-raised. No grain or additives, just a big pasture to graze on. No more factory-farmed meat here.

+many.
local Cypress Grove cheese fed pigs and Humboldt grass fed beef up here.
if you're going to eat them, happy animals taste better

where's Lelani's P85D vegan car going to come from?

 

[bonnie]

+many.
Humboldt grass fed beef up here.

Oh soooo many jokes I could make here. So so many.

 

[Canuck]

... nor did I say that slaughtering cattle bothers me. Quite frankly, it doesn't bother me at all.

If a cow lived a non-tortured, free range life, I'm not going to lose sleep over it being slaughtered and ending up on my plate.

The manner which cows are factory farmed, or worse, farmed for veal, really bothers me.

I see a big difference between the two above. When I go trout fishing with my kids and they complain when we keep some to eat, I tell them these fish had one bad day, where as supermarket/fast food meat had bad days their entire lives.

 

[MassModel3]

If a cow lived a non-tortured, free range life, I'm not going to lose sleep over it being slaughtered and ending up on my plate.

The manner which cows are factory farmed, or worse, farmed for veal, really bothers me.

I have to agree with you there. I don't want to see animals treated cruelly just to put food on my plate or leather in my car.

 

[Electric700]

Relax, the leather that Tesla uses appears to be synthetic!

"Hand wrapped microfiber and synthetic leather interior surfaces in black" is from Model S Specs | Tesla Motors.

Can anyone confirm that all leather color choices are synthetic?

 

[bonnie]

Relax, the leather that Tesla uses appears to be synthetic!

"Hand wrapped microfiber and synthetic leather interior surfaces in black" is from Model S Specs | Tesla Motors.

Can anyone confirm that all leather color choices are synthetic?

Since the bags that are available at events are made from seat leather & labeled 'leather', I suspect the seats are not synthetic. The surfaces (like dash) are synthetic, yes. Seats, no.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

I take exception to that: My family raises cattle for a large part of our income. ALL of the cows and bulls have names. They are all treated very well with plenty of green pasture to roam and eat in. They all come when we call them to eat, and we know which ones need to be apart from others so they'll be able to not fight over the hay. For the ones that go to auction/slaughter, they are treated with respect and amazing care. Stressed cattle do not fatten up and do not give you the best return of investment. It's in everyone's best interest to keep the cattle happy and healthy. We do not have penned up cows that stand there and eat, like a lot of those "factory farms" you see in the PETA videos. Much of that exists in California where resources are very limited, and state government agencies' oversight forces them to use those obscene methods to "raise" cattle. Here in Texas, land is cheap, water is more plentiful than California, and the cows are happier.

As for the OP's topic, I agree that there should be other options than leather. My last car was a Mercedes that had the MB-Tex vinyl. It was amazingly resilient! As for my Model S, I got the textile option because I didn't want to have to mess with the maintenance of leather.

You're kidding with this, right?

Let me (respectfully) point out your hypocrisy...

ALL of the cows and bulls have names.

You still kill them.

For the ones that go to auction/slaughter, they are treated with respect and amazing care.

You still kill them.

My family raises cattle for a large part of our income.

You still kill them.

You have no right to kill another animal. That animal never belonged to you and you had no right to claim that animal's life as inventory for your business. Who gave you the right to take a life in the name of profit?

Stressed cattle do not fatten up and do not give you the best return of investment.

The fact that you said this shows you have no idea what the animal rights and vegan movements are about, so it's best to not say anything.

Here in Texas, land is cheap, water is more plentiful than California, and the cows are happier...

... and eventually murdered. I just thought I'd finish that sentence for clarity.

What you and people like you don't get is that vegans advocate AGAINST the killing and mistreatment of animals. Nothing you say or do will take away from the fact that you kill animals to make a living. That is morally repugnant to vegans and many animal rights advocates. I was vegan for a year and am now vegetarian who eats dairy and eggs occasionally.

You think it's okay to kill animals and to kill them for profit because that is what you do. What you don't understand, and probably should at some point, is that killing animals is wrong. Your cattle can sleep on memory foam pillows their entire lives and get manni-peddies on a daily basis, but you still kill them and deprive them of a life they had no choice in living. To vegans and most vegetarians, you remain the problem as long as your animals end up slaughtered. I hope you can understand that, because to vegans eating meat is morally wrong. It is not sustainable and not necessary to human health at any age or stage of development.

Humans are the only species on earth who kill and eat other animals for taste and pleasure, not for survival.

 

[Electric700]

Since the bags that are available at events are made from seat leather & labeled 'leather', I suspect the seats are not synthetic. The surfaces (like dash) are synthetic, yes. Seats, no.

I just called Tesla and found you are correct. If you go with the textile option, then all included leather is synthetic. Otherwise, the leather options actually use real leather. I think it's about time they considered switching over to 100% synthetic leather choices as now it's possible to approximate the look and feel of real leather.

 

[ElSupreme]

Humans are the only species on earth who kill and eat other animals for taste and pleasure, not for survival.

You need to meet my cats. They kill only for fun.

Heck my greyhound kills for fun too.

 

[bonnie]

I'm sure I'll cause some of you to recoil in horror with this post, so apologies in advance. And maybe some context: In my job (as some of you are aware), I am constantly tasked with weighing the risk of leaving a medical product with known defects on the market that is saving lives, but could also cost some lives. What if it saves more lives than it takes? Seems like a good thing, unless you're the one who is on the losing end (and wouldn't have been). It's a horrible decision to have to make and that's why things like informed consent and risk mitigations and other things become so necessary. "Did I make sure the person knew it could impact them and allow them the choice?" "Did it extend quality of life or destroy it?" I have had a lot of sleepless nights in my life because of worries over things like this. And once I saw an animal testing lab, I swore never to work with any products that required that type of testing. It's a horrible thing. But what about testing surgical tools that will improve both human AND veterinary care? Should those not be tested? What about using that on animals that are at end of life anyway? And on people that sign up for testing? What is the ethical thing to do?

It's such a complex issue. But to say that you should never eat meat because it takes a life ... sorry. Does that mean a pregnant woman is never to have an abortion? Ever? Even if raped? It's a life. Right? The one argument I cannot hear at work is 'Bonnie, someone might die'. We are all going to die. Every single living thing on this planet will die. I am concerned with quality of life. Respecting life.

My second adoptive father suffered from Parkinsons, which eventually took his life. He liked to hike alone out by a favorite lake. Relatives called me, letting me know their concern, that he could fall and not be found. 'Bonnie, he could die.' My response? 'Let him. If you stop him, he will be miserable in the remaining time he has left.' It IS about quality of life and not length of life. It is about respect. And humans are not the only ones who eat meat and yes, it is hard to know that I am eating meat sometimes. But I treat it with respect. And I make sure that the way it was raised was with respect and not some miserable existence.

So sorry if I have offended some of you. I know I have. For the record, I've tried a vegan diet and it was absolutely the worst thing for me possible. I am not primarily meat-based, but I do eat meat. And I'm healthy.

I don't expect others to do what I do. But please, do not lecture me on how to live a sustainable life until you can tell me you're raising your own vegetables, have bees to support the local flora and fauna, support local farms, etc.

 

[Canuck]

Humans are the only species on earth who kill and eat other animals for taste and pleasure, not for survival.

We likely wouldn't have survived as a species if we didn't eat meat and our evolution as the type of species we are has greatly benefited from eating meat. That's just a fact.

"Killing animals and eating meat have been significant components of human evolution that had a synergistic relationship with other key attributes that have made us human, with larger brains, smaller guts, bipedalism and language. Larger brains benefited from consuming high-quality proteins in meat-containing diets, and, in turn, hunting and killing of large animals, butchering of carcasses and sharing of meat have inevitably contributed to the evolution of human intelligence in general and to the development of language and of capacities for planning, cooperation and socializing in particular. Even if the trade-off between smaller guts and larger brains has not been as strong as is claimed by the expensive-tissue hypothesis, there is no doubt that the human digestive tract has clearly evolved for omnivory, not for purely plant-based diets. And the role of scavenging, and later hunting, in the evolution of bipedalism and the mastery of endurance running cannot be underestimated, and neither can the impact of planned, coordinated hunting on non-verbal communication and the evolution of language."

Should Humans Eat Meat? [Excerpt] - Scientific American

My second adoptive father suffered from Parkinsons, which eventually took his life. He liked to hike alone out by a favorite lake. Relatives called me, letting me know their concern, that he could fall and not be found. 'Bonnie, he could die.' My response? 'Let him.

I have a very similar story with my grandfather, fishing alone in a boat on a lake, at age 89. As we watched him row out of sight from inside the lakehouse, we debated whether to go get him and bring him back. We decided "no". It would have been an affront to his entire life to need rescue from something he has done alone so often. If he died, we decided, he would have died doing what he wanted to do, and better to die that way and not as a frail old man in the eyes of your children and grandchildren who needs "rescue".

He rowed back to shore a few hours later; and four days later he had a heart attack and died on the golf course. I'm so glad we let him row and my image of him rowing on the lake and out of sight brings me such comfort.

 

[Chris TX]

words, etc...

Moral judgements aside, we are caretakers of our animals and they just happen to get a pretty penny at the auction (especially these days!) I'm not justifying the beef industry, I'm simply contrasting the factory farming with the farming my family does. If someone was to come on to our farm and abuse or inhumanely kill our animals, I would definitely take offense to that (and a modern sporting rifle).

And trust me, I do understand the plight and belief of vegans/vegetarians. There's plenty in my family and we have mutual respect for each other. I don't push a cheeseburger in their face and taunt them, and they don't attempt to "free" our cattle. I happen to like the food they prepare at family gatherings, and happily eat a veggie burger once in a while. Hell, I've even had the distinct "pleasure" of squeaking my teeth against a Tofurkey, once.

I am however, honored that you took the time to come up with this diatribe just for little ol' me

- - - Updated - - -

I am not primarily meat-based...

So what are you made of?

 

[bonnie]

Sugar and spice. Sustainably harvested, of course.

 

[Electroman]

AmpedRealtor pretty much said what I would have.

+infinity.

 

[AudubonB]

Are there Jains among us - mkjayakumar, Amped, and others? If not, why not? And if you are, at what level of being do you stop not killing? At the vertebrate/invertebrate boundary? Multicellular/Single cell? Animal/Plant? Plant/Protista? What about DNA/non-DNA? What about prions? How DO you decide?

It is much easier, I absolutely admit, to kill than not to kill. Choose the former, and you can decide on a case by case basis what to leave alone: one's species, one's pets and their ilk, cute cuddly things, and so on. Choose the latter...and you put yourself in a terrible dilemma from which there is no escape, since eventually, as per my first paragraph, you will have to make a decision as where to draw the line. Who are you to be that arbiter? And...who are you to tell others that their​ line is more or less ethical than the one you choose?

 

[Lloyd]

The other side of this argument about using animals (leather) is that if we did not use their products, we would not raise them. In effect preventing them from living at all. By not using the animals products, that consumer is in effect precluding their life! Humane is always better.

All religions teach in some form that animals were put on earth for the benefit of man. Each individual needs to interpret how they choose to act.

brings to mind this funny!! :tongue: