It's the Batteries, Stupid!

[TEG]

Here
List of battery sizes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
For Li-Ion bigger than 18650 as "standard" sizes they list:
25500
26650 (A123 ANR26650)
32600

This seems to show 18700, 22650, & 25500 next to the trusty old 18650:

A123 18650 (yellow), 26650 (green) & 32113 (orange):

 

[JRP3]

10% wider and 10% longer comes out to about a 20720

 

[GSP]

The new report from AABC claims that Tesla will use 20700 format cells.

This is the first time I have seen an exact size. I would consider AABC to be an authoritative source. Not a direct announcement from Tesla Motors, but second best. I posted a link to the free extract in the Gigafactory investor thread:

Tesla Gigafactory Investor Thread - Page 162

GSP

 

[RobStark]

The new report from AABC claims that Tesla will use 20700 format cells.

This is the first time I have seen an exact size. I would consider AABC to be an authoritative source. Not a direct announcement from Tesla Motors, but second best. I posted a link to the free extract in the Gigafactory investor thread:

Tesla Gigafactory Investor Thread - Page 162

GSP

They said that Tesla will use bigger cells "about 20700 size."

 

[scaesare]

I had heard 22700 suggested earlier... (which is about 61% greater volume than an 18650).

But with either case, the battery would be slightly taller than it is now. In the thread where wk057 did a tear-down of a pack, he noted that there seemed to be some dead-space at the bottom of the pack below each brick.

The initial assumption was that the space allowed some protection in case the bottom of the pack took some damage. No I wonder if it's to allow the transition to a taller battery without having to redesign the pack enclosure, but rather just the modules themselves that fit inside it.

 

[JRP3]

We are talking about a 2mm height increase, so even if not designed for it I'd think it would be quite easy to accommodate in the existing enclosure.

:redface: As was pointed out to me it's actually a 5mm height increase.

 

[Jeff N]

New PBS Autoline show available today that is all about battery technology. Panelists include the head of LG Chem's US battery unit that makes the Volt, Spark EV and Ford Focus EV cells and who says they will make the cells for a $35,000 200-mile range car. The other major panelist is the head of GM-supported solid state battery startup Sakti3. She claims on the show that they will have $100 per kwh at the wholesale cell price level for consumer device use in 2 years and EV use shortly after that. She also says their solid state batteries will need less elaborate cooling and other pack-level overhead.

The show is on PBS tonight and is also online now at The Charge of the Battery Brigade (Show #1833) on Autoline This Week. It is 30 minutes long.

 

[Zzzz...]

New PBS Autoline show available today that is all about battery technology. Panelists include the head of LG Chem's US battery unit that makes the Volt, Spark EV and Ford Focus EV cells and who says they will make the cells for a $35,000 200-mile range car. The other major panelist is the head of GM-supported solid state battery startup Sakti3. She claims on the show that they will have $100 per kwh at the wholesale cell price level for consumer device use in 2 years and EV use shortly after that. She also says their solid state batteries will need less elaborate cooling and other pack-level overhead.

The show is on PBS tonight and is also I online now at The Charge of the Battery Brigade (Show #1833) on Autoline This Week. It is 30 minutes long.

Thanks for posting! Very cool video. And I'm very surprised how optimistic and result oriented Sakti3 CEO is. It do feels like she really believe she could get to $100/kWh in 2 years timeframe for consumer electronics market. And she mentioned 1100 Wh/l for cells produced on scalable equipment - this is also very impressive, especially as she implies that battery pack cooling system would be needed.

 

[GSP]

New PBS Autoline show available today that is all about battery technology. Panelists include the head of LG Chem's US battery unit that makes the Volt, Spark EV and Ford Focus EV cells and who says they will make the cells for a $35,000 200-mile range car. The other major panelist is the head of GM-supported solid state battery startup Sakti3. She claims on the show that they will have $100 per kwh at the wholesale cell price level for consumer device use in 2 years and EV use shortly after that. She also says their solid state batteries will need less elaborate cooling and other pack-level overhead.

The show is on PBS tonight and is also online now at The Charge of the Battery Brigade (Show #1833) on Autoline This Week. It is 30 minutes long.

Good video with knowledgeable guests. The host is his usual EV skeptic self, but that adds more to the discussion (even though it is annoying at times).

Thanks for posting.

GSP

- - - Updated - - -

They said that Tesla will use bigger cells "about 20700 size."

The exact "20700" size is called out on slides 25, 27, 28 of the AABC report. I could not find "about 20700 size" in the report, but I would be grateful if someone could point it out.

GSP

 

[scaesare]

A 20700 form factor cell has about 33% more volume than an 18650 cell...

I thought I had heard "22700" as a proposed form factor previously... that would be 61% more volume per cell...

 

[JRP3]

Tesla has said about 10% longer and 10% wider, which is pretty close to 20700, though I expected 20720.

 

[ggies07]

So she was going on and on about how the math is there and we will have solid-state batteries and the fact that you don't have to have a specific form, so you can put them where ever you like in a car. That seems to me like they are still using the old ways of thinking and still trying to use an ICE for an EV, instead of making sure the car is designed from the ground up. I don't understand that, anyone have some thoughts?

 

[JRP3]

When ever battery announcements talk about basically irrelevant features like that, or like charging in two minutes, but never mention the most important, energy density, it raises a red flag for me.

 

[tomas]

Here's an attempt by the battery researchers at Argonne Labs to "get in touch with the market". I had meeting with these guys a couple of years ago, and I think it is serious research organizations like this that will find new materials to provide a breakthrough - vs. the snake oil reports we get from time to time - albeit with commercial viability probably lagging by a decade! I just wish they'd talk with corporations and consumers that are thinking outside of the box. They are getting feedback like: "lower cost of an 80 mile battery so we can produce cheaper hybrids" vs. BEV. AARRGHHH, let's just see how long we can require an ICE engine in cars! I can just guess who in Detroit they are talking to. They're also getting feedback like "if you make higher capacity batteries for phones, we'll make phones more powerful - vs. lengthen charge cycle". All of which seems like narrow, conventional thinking. How about a phone that never needs recharging? Or is miniaturized to a watch and lasts a month, so your phone is essentially non-charged and you use phablet sized device for internet (when you want to carry)? I hope the further stops on their "market" tour give them some more out of the box goals.

 

[ggies07]

Thanks for the info and link tomas.

 

[JRP3]

Grid storage LifePO4

Test cells have lasted more than 40,000 cycles in “hammer tests” that completely discharge and then overcharge them over and over again, without significant degradation of performance, he said.

http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/alevo-a-new-gigawatt-scale-grid-battery-contender

http://alevo.com/alevo-opens-victory-industrial-park-concord-north-carolina/

 

[JRP3]

Very interesting talk by Yi Cui explaining many of his different types of battery discoveries. Spoiler alert, rice hulls and crab shells may help bring about cheaper batteries:

 

[Robert.Boston]

When ever battery announcements talk about basically irrelevant features like that, or like charging in two minutes, but never mention the most important, energy density, it raises a red flag for me.

Batteries have many attributes, and different designs make different compromises. Just to name a few:

• Energy density (Wh/g)
• Energy density (Wh/l)
• Power density - discharge rate (W/g)
• Power density - discharge rate (W/l)
• Recharge rate (C)
• Lifetime charge cycles (# cycles to, say, degradation to 70%)
• Calendar degradation rate (# days to, say, degradation to 70%)

There's probably never going to be a single "best battery design." In stationary applications, e.g. renewable power integration, weight is irrelevant and volume, mostly so, but cycles matter a lot. For cars, low weight is king, followed closely by compact size. Lots of tradeoffs.

 

[Zzzz...]

Oxis: "cell achieving in excess of 300Wh/kg". This is important because lithium sulfur cells from Oxis have entered commercial production phase already.

OXIS Energy is leading the World with its latest cell Energy Density and Capacity | Oxis Energy

 

[JRP3]

Looking through their data shows they have at least three different cells under development. Their "long life" cell with 1,000 cycle life is only at 160 wh/kg. Their "EV" cell, with a projected 400 wh/kg in 2016, is only at 600 cycles, and their "Ultralight" cell at 300 wh/kg, is only good for 200 cycles, and only projected to get to 500 cycles by 2017. Bottom line, a long way to go for anything actually usable in a production EV.