oil change

[tessy_ftw]

Can someone help me understand why there is no oil change or battery coolant change on Tesla vehicles?

Over time the effectiveness of the battery coolant likely breaks down (and some % prob evaporates/escapes)

More importantly, over time there will be metal fibers in the gearbox/motor that are floating around or stuck in the oil filter... This would probably be a very fast process and low cost.

I'm not talking about every 3000 miles -- but what about every 3-5 years or every 50k miles? If it improves efficiency (range) or reduces friction/heat inside the motor by even 1%, it seems like it would be worth while.

Why is it never done until there are catastrophic failures?

 

[ngng]

because Tesla wants you to buy a new car

 

[DCGOO]

Can someone help me understand why there is no oil change or battery coolant change on Tesla vehicles?

Over time the effectiveness of the battery coolant likely breaks down (and some % prob evaporates/escapes)

More importantly, over time there will be metal fibers in the gearbox/motor that are floating around or stuck in the oil filter... This would probably be a very fast process and low cost.

I'm not talking about every 3000 miles -- but what about every 3-5 years or every 50k miles? If it improves efficiency (range) or reduces friction/heat inside the motor by even 1%, it seems like it would be worth while.

Why is it never done until there are catastrophic failures?

Because the coolant loop is a closed sealed system. Under normal circumstances (no catastrophic failures), it never needs to be replaced. Also, there is no oil or filter to change.

 

[ngng]

Because the coolant loop is a closed sealed system. Under normal circumstances (no catastrophic failures), it never needs to be replaced. Also, there is no oil or filter to change.

the drive units have oil and oil filters diff had oil as well

 

[Bigriver]

Can someone help me understand why there is no oil change or battery coolant change on Tesla vehicles?

There used to be maintenance plans one could buy for the model S and model X. Among the things they did during the scheduled maintenance was to flush the battery coolant. I was told by tech at Tesla that they stopped doing that because the coolant they were taking out looked just like new coolant. It was assessed to be unnecessary.

 

[brainhouston]

Newer drive units have oil filters, older ones don't
All of them have drain/fill plugs so nobody stopping u from changing it if u want.
Modern oils last very long time n will outlast everything else in the simple drive unit (or HV pack for that matter lol) plus there's magnet to collect all metal fibers...
Also, i don't believe EV drive units heat up as much as Auto transmissions (most use ATF also), pro-longing oil life even more..

 

[tessy_ftw]

If i understand correctly, it has an oil cooler -- so it probably is very hot.

If I ask Tesla to do it, will they refuse? If they 'used to do this years ago' what did they charge?

I understand there is a magnet that keeps all the fibers at the bottom, but after 3,5,10+ years and 10s of thousands of miles you need to get that crap out of there. Doesn't matter if its a closed system-- the metal filings are doing damage and will eventually cause failure.

 

[brainhouston]

If i understand correctly, it has an oil cooler -- so it probably is very hot.

highest i've seen on my X was 150F in July... i don't consider that Very hot, i think ICE cars run close to 200F...
oil cooler also functions as indirect battery heater

I understand there is a magnet that keeps all the fibers at the bottom, but after 3,5,10+ years and 10s of thousands of miles you need to get that crap out of there. Doesn't matter if its a closed system-- the metal filings are doing damage and will eventually cause failure.

thousands of older Teslas that never changed oil will probably disagree with u
in fact my 2013 bmw with 170k miles disagrees with u, never changed tranny oil on it n it has way more moving parts/clutches/dirt in there...

 

[gsmith123]

Over time the effectiveness of the battery coolant likely breaks down

Do you have a source for this one?

My intuition is this doesn't make sense. Battery coolant is, essentially, just the working fluid for transferring heat. Isn't it mostly water, with some additives so it doesn't freeze?

How would it break down? What would the impact be? It's thermal capacity wouldn't break down, but maybe the corrosion inhibitors would causing secondary issues with components of the cooling system?

 

[Tronguy]

Let's get real, here.

Take an ICE. One is literally burning hydrocarbons. The inside of the cylinder wall gets, no kidding, hot. As in, blisters on your fingers hot. I mean, this is hot exhaust on the inside of the cylinder. Yeah, the block is water-cooled; that still doesn't stop the cylinder walls from betting 'way up there.

Next: Each piston has metal rings around said piston. These suckers slide up and down the cylinder. In general, lubricants work on a near-microscopic level by separating two pieces of metal with a thin film of lubricant.

The engine literally sprays oil on the cylinder walls. Some of that lubricant is going into the combustion chamber and is, inevitably, going to end up being wiped back into the main reservoir of oil in the crankcase. Further, high-pressure, high-temperature gases are going to leak out of the combustion area down past the rings. All of this is subjecting the oil to high temperatures.

What happens?

1. The oil molecules literally break into smaller pieces. Smaller pieces don't lubricate so well.
2. Highly acidic combustion products, carbon particulate matter, and combustion by-products (CO, CO2, H2O, carbonic acid, and whatever happens to all those chemicals they put into gasoline so it "burns smooth" when they combust) end up in the oil. There's REASONS oil turns black, and that's it. All that junk also degrades the oil and makes it not lubricate well.
3. Most ICE engines run near, at, or above the boiling point of water. That's hot. The Arrhenius equation says that chemical reactions (as in, breaking down stuff like oil) goes as the exponent of the absolute temperature.

Back in the really long ago, engine oil had to be replaced every 3000 miles. It's a major miracle of automotive and chemical engineering that we can take refined dino juice and get it to last 10,000 miles.

So, let's look at a Tesla BEV. Um. Nothing is running near the boiling point of water. There's no exhaust gases, anywhere.

The coolant is, as far as I know, similar to ICE transmission fluid: It's got lubricant built in (like a thin oil). Think about it: Transmission fluid in ICEs gets replaced, what, every 45,000 miles or something? But let's get real again. In a true-blue automatic transmission there are, yes, gears. Just like a Tesla. But there also happens to be a torque converter where, by gum, a ton of sheer stress is put on the transmission fluid. Further, there a little bitty clutches that open and shut, sliding madly against each other, adding more sheer stress to the fluid.

How often is transmission fluid in an automatic changed? I think we're talking 45,000 miles or so.

Now, Teslas. The coolant is pushed through the battery and motor assembly for coolant purposes. Nothing is as hot as an ICE.

Let's look at the oil in the electric motor. Which is cooled by ye fluid and runs nowhere near as hot as an ICE. The closest thing I've ever messed with that looks like this was the manual transmission on my old '71 VW Beetle. Hypoid gear oil Changed: Once every 90,000 miles, if memory serves.

And, even with this: A VW Beetle's transmission has synchronizers so one doesn't have to double-clutch. Those synchronizers are, effectively, clutches and do put high pressure on the oil when one shifted gears. That lasted 90k miles. The transmission in Teslas is nowhere near as complex: It's one speed. Admittedly the reduction gears and the differential share the same oil, I think.. but it's lot less intense in there compared to a old-time manual transmission with tons of gears and synchronizers.

What Tesla says:

1. Battery Coolant is Life of Vehicle.
2. Electric motor oil: They don't even mention it.

And, on that oil: I've overhauled ICE engines. After an overhaul, with resurfaced cylinder walls, new rings, new bearings, and all that jazz, one expects some wear. So, responsible types usually change the oil after the break-in interval where all sorts of metallic particles have been ground off this and that and deposited in the oil, then run through the filter. The break-in interval is, what, 500 to 1000 miles or so..

After that - one needs the filter to snag all that carbon and tar and shellac from the combustion process. None of which a Tesla has.

So the filter in a Tesla is around to catch the initial bit of metal particles as the gears wear into each other. After that - no more garbage. And no need to change the filter.

Next question?

 

[ngng]

Let's get real, here.

Take an ICE. One is literally burning hydrocarbons. The inside of the cylinder wall gets, no kidding, hot. As in, blisters on your fingers hot. I mean, this is hot exhaust on the inside of the cylinder. Yeah, the block is water-cooled; that still doesn't stop the cylinder walls from betting 'way up there.

Next: Each piston has metal rings around said piston. These suckers slide up and down the cylinder. In general, lubricants work on a near-microscopic level by separating two pieces of metal with a thin film of lubricant.

The engine literally sprays oil on the cylinder walls. Some of that lubricant is going into the combustion chamber and is, inevitably, going to end up being wiped back into the main reservoir of oil in the crankcase. Further, high-pressure, high-temperature gases are going to leak out of the combustion area down past the rings. All of this is subjecting the oil to high temperatures.

What happens?

1. The oil molecules literally break into smaller pieces. Smaller pieces don't lubricate so well.
2. Highly acidic combustion products, carbon particulate matter, and combustion by-products (CO, CO2, H2O, carbonic acid, and whatever happens to all those chemicals they put into gasoline so it "burns smooth" when they combust) end up in the oil. There's REASONS oil turns black, and that's it. All that junk also degrades the oil and makes it not lubricate well.
3. Most ICE engines run near, at, or above the boiling point of water. That's hot. The Arrhenius equation says that chemical reactions (as in, breaking down stuff like oil) goes as the exponent of the absolute temperature.

Back in the really long ago, engine oil had to be replaced every 3000 miles. It's a major miracle of automotive and chemical engineering that we can take refined dino juice and get it to last 10,000 miles.

So, let's look at a Tesla BEV. Um. Nothing is running near the boiling point of water. There's no exhaust gases, anywhere.

The coolant is, as far as I know, similar to ICE transmission fluid: It's got lubricant built in (like a thin oil). Think about it: Transmission fluid in ICEs gets replaced, what, every 45,000 miles or something? But let's get real again. In a true-blue automatic transmission there are, yes, gears. Just like a Tesla. But there also happens to be a torque converter where, by gum, a ton of sheer stress is put on the transmission fluid. Further, there a little bitty clutches that open and shut, sliding madly against each other, adding more sheer stress to the fluid.

How often is transmission fluid in an automatic changed? I think we're talking 45,000 miles or so.

Now, Teslas. The coolant is pushed through the battery and motor assembly for coolant purposes. Nothing is as hot as an ICE.

Let's look at the oil in the electric motor. Which is cooled by ye fluid and runs nowhere near as hot as an ICE. The closest thing I've ever messed with that looks like this was the manual transmission on my old '71 VW Beetle. Hypoid gear oil Changed: Once every 90,000 miles, if memory serves.

And, even with this: A VW Beetle's transmission has synchronizers so one doesn't have to double-clutch. Those synchronizers are, effectively, clutches and do put high pressure on the oil when one shifted gears. That lasted 90k miles. The transmission in Teslas is nowhere near as complex: It's one speed. Admittedly the reduction gears and the differential share the same oil, I think.. but it's lot less intense in there compared to a old-time manual transmission with tons of gears and synchronizers.

What Tesla says:

1. Battery Coolant is Life of Vehicle.
2. Electric motor oil: They don't even mention it.

And, on that oil: I've overhauled ICE engines. After an overhaul, with resurfaced cylinder walls, new rings, new bearings, and all that jazz, one expects some wear. So, responsible types usually change the oil after the break-in interval where all sorts of metallic particles have been ground off this and that and deposited in the oil, then run through the filter. The break-in interval is, what, 500 to 1000 miles or so..

After that - one needs the filter to snag all that carbon and tar and shellac from the combustion process. None of which a Tesla has.

So the filter in a Tesla is around to catch the initial bit of metal particles as the gears wear into each other. After that - no more garbage. And no need to change the filter.

Next question?

You make a lot of hand wavy assumptions. As somebody who works on all kinds of vehicles, I’d highly recommend changing fluids at a reasonable interval. Nothing is lifetime.

 

[Tronguy]

You make a lot of hand wavy assumptions. As somebody who works on all kinds of vehicles, I’d highly recommend changing fluids at a reasonable interval. Nothing is lifetime.

Right. All kinds of vehicles. I've worked on a lot of vehicles and other ICE-powered equipment before and since that '71 bug. Admittedly, they were all passenger cars and not, say, semis and the like.

If there's one thing I've been religious about, it's following the maintenance manuals for the vehicles, at least when one could buy the paper versions, and nowadays it's either on-line or PDFs. The people writing those manuals were the people building the cars; I took those things seriously. And I'm not talking about the buy-it-in-the-auto-shop-on-a-rack stuff, I'm talking the thick stuff, along with the add-ons (if any) for electrical and what-not.

Most, if not all, of those manuals were very explicit about fluid change intervals, mechanical maintenance intervals, and all that jazz. And I've got a toolbox full of some pretty strange stuff.

Honda might say, "Change the oil every 10k miles." Dealerships and oil change places might say, "Every 3000!" But those guys have, say, a vested interest in getting punters into the shop.

So, the manufacturer of these here Teslas doesn't publish one of those fancy charts that look like this, for a Prius:

Tesla just says:

• Brake fluid health check every 4 years (replace if necessary)**.
• A/C desiccant bag replacement every 4* years.
• Cabin air filter replacement every 2 years.
• Clean and lubricate brake calipers every year or 12,500 miles (20,000 km) if in an area where roads are salted during winter.
• Rotate tires every 6,250 miles (10,000 km) or if tread depth difference is 2/32 in (1.5 mm) or greater, whichever comes first

*A/C desiccant bag replacement can be extended to 6 years on vehicles manufactured between approximately 2017-2021.

**Heavy brake usage due to towing, mountain descents, or performance driving -- especially for vehicles in hot and humid environments -- may necessitate more frequent brake fluid checks and replacements.

And that's it. No oil changes. No oil filter replacement. No engine air cleaner. No exhaust system. No fuel tank follies.

The fluid change interval on the Tesla coolant, which, if I'm not mistaken, also lubricates the electric motors, is, "lifetime of car".

I suppose that if one is messing with the brakes, as Tesla suggest with the calipers, one might as well check the ball joints and drive shaft boots, since it's an eyeball check anyway.

Why argue?

 

[gsmith123]

The fluid change interval on the Tesla coolant, which, if I'm not mistaken, also lubricates the electric motors, is, "lifetime of car".

To be clear here, "coolant" generally references the working fluid in the cars thermal system (circulating through the battery, heat pump, motor heat exchangers, computer etc).

The coolant does not lubricate the motors (or anything else). Each motor has it's own oil system - that's separate from the coolant. Offhand I believe the oil is involved in cooling the motors but transfers out to the coolant via a heat exchanger.

 

[Adair Martin]

Can someone help me understand why there is no oil change or battery coolant change on Tesla vehicles?

Over time the effectiveness of the battery coolant likely breaks down (and some % prob evaporates/escapes)

More importantly, over time there will be metal fibers in the gearbox/motor that are floating around or stuck in the oil filter... This would probably be a very fast process and low cost.

I'm not talking about every 3000 miles -- but what about every 3-5 years or every 50k miles? If it improves efficiency (range) or reduces friction/heat inside the motor by even 1%, it seems like it would be worth while.

Why is it never done until there are catastrophic failures?

Question for you: how often do you change the fluid in your home A/C or heat pump? Never? Thought so. But, aren’t there motors and things in a home HVAC that need oil? Apparently not. Same with Teslas. No leak, no need to add fluid.

 

[tessy_ftw]

Apples to oranges...

My home HVAC dies after 10 years... Doesn't carry 1000s of lbs of weight and isn't expected to go 300-500k miles.

 

[Kandiru]

The 2012-2016 Model S needed battery coolant replaced at 5 years, service reassured me the new coolant would never need replaced again.