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International Electric-Car Charging-Plug Standards
- Thread starter tps5352
- Start date
Um...no. A unified connector saves money. Only one SKU for all vehicles (well okay, except for that pesky left hand vs. right hand drive issue). But one SKU for the charge port and OBC. Plus savings in copper or aluminum for running wiring to every charger that uses 3 phase.
I'm not sure how you'd just leave an adapter at a charging station. You wouldn't be able to put the connector back on the pedestal with the adapter on it. I suppose you could accidentally leave the adapter in the charging port but I'm not sure if the vehicle will even drive with it connected. The charge port door would never be able to close.
...which isn't guaranteed to be supported by all networks. How many networks support Plug and Charge right now?
Mockingbird
Member
We already have one. Everyone except Tesla is using it.
The point is: It's much easier to forget an adapter than a vehicle.
Not only that, the person might have not bought the adapter and ended up needing it.
Three: Electrify America, Greenlots, and EVgo.
Net every network support it yet, but the end goal is that most network will.
Um...no. There are 5 different fast charge connectors. There will soon be a sixth. And there will be even more connectors beyond that, as vehicles charge faster and need connectors that can handle higher voltages and/or higher currents. The reasonable interim solution to this problem is to create adapters for all connectors and vehicle types so that everyone can charge at every station, until technological progress slows to the point where we're fairly certain we won't have a new connector type in 10 years. But we're not even remotely close to that point. Once we get to something that can charge at 1MW all the way from 0% to close to 100% and it's somewhat competitive with gasoline fill times, that's probably the point where development will stop. But until then, there's always going to be a push to charge faster so that the people who want to pull into a station, use the restroom, get back in the car, and immediately go, don't need to be burning gasoline anymore. And with that push will come many more new connectors and charger types that don't even exist yet.
A few days back, I was reading a post that went something like this: "Help! I rented a house and I got there and realized that I left my UMC at home. And my car needs a charge!". Should Tesla put 5-15 and 14-50 plugs on its vehicles too?
It's much easier to forget a UMC than a vehicle.Seriously, if you make something idiot proof, someone will make a better idiot. When you go on a road trip, double and triple check and make sure you have all of the stuff you need. Yes, people make mistakes, but you can set things up to make it unlikely that you'll ever make a mistake. That's why I always keep my UMC in the trunk. And if someone does make such a mistake, well, I guarantee that's one of those mistakes that you're only likely to ever make once.
Which leaves out the most popular network around here (ChargePoint).
Mockingbird
Member
In North America, there is CCS and TPC. (CHAdeMO is on the way out).
CCS already provides higher power than TPC.
Telsa just keeps TPC around to maintain a walled garden.
Slippery slope fallacy doesn't make a good argument.A few days back, I was reading a post that went something like this: "Help! I rented a house and I got there and realized that I left my UMC at home. And my car needs a charge!". Should Tesla put 5-15 and 14-50 plugs on its vehicles too?
Where is "here"?
(For those who may perhaps want to take a much-needed break from debating) I've added a new chart of international Tesla (downstream) adapters to the OP (Post #1). (It does not include 3rd-party, aftermarket charging adapters, or the many AC wall-socket adapters for Tesla Mobile Connectors.)
If I've missed any, please let me know.
If I've missed any, please let me know.
CCS maxes out somewhere around 350-400A. Note that this would be around 160 kW @ 400V. 250 kW V3 superchargers are doing WAY more than 400A and Tesla is rumored to have plans to push this maximum up to 324 kW. If you do the math, that's above 800A. And I'm unsure about the exact voltage on the Tesla batteries when they're at 0-25% SoC but if it's around 370V, then a current 250 kW V3 SC is pushing almost 700A into the batteries at that point.
Doesn't seem like a very good walled garden though, if they're offering adapters for CHAdeMO and CCS. You don't think it could have to do with...oh I don't know, maybe making the user experience better? In Europe, Tesla's Type2 WC and UMC connectors have a button on top that is used to open the charge port. But this button cannot be put onto a J1772/CCS1 connector because said connectors already have a button that actuates the lever that controls the locking mechanism.
Got a link to an article from a Tesla employee making such a statement, or to a Tesla employee's presentation making such a statement? That would put this issue to rest because it would be proof beyond a reasonable doubt.
There are more ChargePoint stations in California than pretty much anything else (for L2 charging).
Do you know whether I'd be able to use the GB/T or CCS2 to Type2 adapter from Tesla, and then the third-party Type2 to TPC adapter, to DC fast charge my vehicle at a GB/T or CCS2 station? Are those third-party Type2 to TPC adapters even built for DC fast charging?
Is the TPC connector physically limited to ~400V? Or could it go higher? If it is physically limited to 400V in the current instantiation, is it trivial to fix via different material selection?
In other words, increasing Amps isn't the only way to increase power, and nothing about the connector format says to me that increasing volts wouldn't work. I don't think "CCS handles more power" is a valid argument for CCS as the standard for the future given the ease of changing the max voltage of TPC. (I also don't think it's needed as an argument. The bit where CCS is an official standard, but Tesla hasn't put TPC connector info up on github under a "feel free to use" license pretty much makes the case. If you want to supplant an official standard, you've got to be VERY open with your alternative in a way that Tesla has claimed to be, but then hasn't actually been.)
In other words, increasing Amps isn't the only way to increase power, and nothing about the connector format says to me that increasing volts wouldn't work. I don't think "CCS handles more power" is a valid argument for CCS as the standard for the future given the ease of changing the max voltage of TPC. (I also don't think it's needed as an argument. The bit where CCS is an official standard, but Tesla hasn't put TPC connector info up on github under a "feel free to use" license pretty much makes the case. If you want to supplant an official standard, you've got to be VERY open with your alternative in a way that Tesla has claimed to be, but then hasn't actually been.)
Mockingbird
Member
Even the first sentence is wrong.
If you weren't stuck inside of Tesla's walled garden, you might have known that.
There are plenty of 500A CCS chargers.
In fact, most of Electrify America's 350 kW chargers are rated for 500A.
You mean the absolutely pathetic CHAdeMO adapter that, not only is not included with the vehicle and has to be purchased, but is also limited to 50 kW and out of stock 99% of the time.
Or the CCS adapter that isn't even avilable in US/CAN.
I don't need to. It's simple deductive reasoning:
Who the hell would use the CHAdeMO adapter to charge at 50 kW when there is a Supercharger nearby that can charge at 150 kW - 250 kW?
That is assuming that he even have the adapter in the first place.
That's nice, but I was talking about fast charging.
There is no GB/T or CCS2 in US/CAN so your question is irrelevent.
Yeah, but they'd have to change the entire architecture of their battery pack to take advantage of increasing volts instead of amps. Only a few vehicles have gone beyond 400V (the Taycan being one of them).
Another interesting question I have about the TPC and cabling is how long it can sustain 250 kW. I've supercharged at 250 kW a couple of times and the cable quickly gets extremely hot -- within about 2-3 minutes it's very hot to the touch and it wasn't a hot day at all both times I did this. I have my doubts about whether it can withstand 600A+ for longer than a few minutes before something has to give (and given that we don't want cables melting, that something should be lowering the current levels to make sure the cable doesn't melt). At some point, we're going to have batteries that can charge at >= 250 kW all the way to 50% or beyond, but whether the existing connectors and cables can support it, I'm not sure. I guess it's already liquid cooled and you could increase the amount of coolant flowing through the cable and/or refrigerate the coolant, but that adds another point of failure.
I stand corrected.
Yes, but Power = Volts x Amps. Teslas do not use 800V batteries, so they wouldn't be able to take 350 kW from a 500A charger. 400V * 500A = 200 kW. So the V3 SCs are still doing way more than the EA chargers are in terms of current.
The CCS adapter will be able to take 100+ kW. That's at least acceptable.
No it's not because my vehicle is mobile. I could take it to Europe or the PRC and then what? Could I daisy chain two adapters? Note that if the Type2 to TPC adapter is designed for AC charging currents only, then I'd likely melt the adapter and if it somehow melts into my charging port, then I've got an even bigger problem. But if it's designed for DC fast charging, I'd be good to go.
A safer option might be to use a 3rd party GB/T to CCS1 or CCS2 to CCS1 adapter and then daisy chain that with the Tesla-provided CCS1 to TPC adapter.
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Mockingbird
Member
Switch to 800V battery. Problem solved.
The V3 Superchargers are already rated for 1000V anyway.
Having CCS on the vehicle itself means that Tesla drivers wouldn't be stuck with the limitations of the adapter.
Normal peple wouldn't take their vehicles from North America to Europe or Asia.
They would sell their vehicles (if they are moving) or rent (if they are visiting).
How many times have you taken your vehicles from North America to Europe or Asia?
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Is that for the Cybertruck? I thought they were developing V4 for those.
My understanding is that the adapter imposes no limitations since it's just a passthrough device. What if anything Tesla plans to do to prevent the adapters from melting if CCS1 ups the maximum current to something way beyond its current maximum and they start selling new adapters, I'm not sure. The car wouldn't be able to tell which adapter is being used.
People do this. I have coworkers who have done this. What are their options if they take their Tesla? Obviously if you are moving permanently, you probably want to get the charge port hardware swapped out. But what if it's a 12-36 month move, after which you plan to return to your home country?
Mockingbird
Member
No. That's a regular V3 Supercharger.
The point still stand: the limitation is because of the use of the adapter.
My other uncle's brother-in-law third cousin did this /s
It's exceedingly rare and even then, there are CCS1/CCS2 adapters for these exceptionally rare circumstances.
Since you love calling out fallacies, this should be right up your alley:
This one is called Cherry Picking.
You assume it is because you are an American. Americans are notorious worldwide with this reputation for being so insular and not moving or traveling out of the U.S. and generally having not much interest in doing so. It is kind of a self-reinforcing cause and effect with a lack of cultural awareness or interest or exposure to other countries. But this kind of thing of moving and needing to move vehicles is more common in other parts of the world.
Yeah, so no Teslas currently have 800V batteries. Why would Tesla make a SC that can do 1000V? Are they planning ahead? No one really knows except Tesla.
There are? Will it work? How can I connect my TPC-equipped Tesla to a GB/T DC fast charger and charge it? Is there an adapter, or a combination of adapters, that will do the job? That was my question and I don't really have an answer to that one. There are DC fast charging adapters that go the other way (to allow cars with a GB/T port to fast charge from CCS1 or CCS2 stations). But I still haven't found one that does the reverse.
And if it's so rare for vehicles to be transported between countries, why would people even bother engineering stuff like this? I mean, they'd sell close enough to zero of them that they won't even make back the NRE costs, right?
Unfortunately, I do not.
Just speculating (based on more-learned posts I've seen), maybe yes if the 3rd-party Type 2-to-TPC adapter were just a straight pass-through device (look at me sounding like I know what I'm talking about) and did not interfere with any Tesla (adapter-to-car communication) circuitry in the first adapter, maybe. And yes, from what I've read they are intended for DC charging (only).
Other opinions, please?
Just some reminders (for people new to the subject):
- Tesla in North America, Japan, and South Korea uses proprietary (TPC) charging equipment (plugs and ports).
- Different plugs and ports are used in Europe/Oceania (Type 2/CCS2 standards) and China (GB/T AC and DC standards).
- Tesla offers CCS2-to-Type 2 and GB/T-to-Type 2 adapters for Models S & X with Type 2 charging ports in (respectively) Europe and China.
- Tesla does not make a Type 2-to-TPC adapter.
- There are a few sources of after-market Type 2-to-TPC adapters I'm aware of:
- California (here is recommendation from knowledgeable Well-Known TMC Member)
- Possible target of Russian aggression
- And several one-time sellers or vendors on eBay (Offering adapters that look like those from the first source; but are they?).
- These 3rd-party adapters are relatively expensive. (If that's due to quality manufacturing, good! If it is due solely to supply-and-demand, not so good.)
- AFAIK, they are all only for use at a DC (Supercharger or maybe CHAdeMO) charging station station. They are not intended for AC charging at home or wherever.
- I have not previously heard of an after-market Type 2-to-TPC adapter being used in combination with GB/T (Chinese) equipment. They are usually advertised as being for a North American car in Europe for use at a Supercharger (with Type 2 plug cable).
- I think I did recently hear of one being used in combination with a CHAdeMO adapter--can't remember where.
- For me, it is scary to mess around with anything that is not Tesla-made when it comes to channeling high voltage into my (expensive) baby.
Mockingbird
Member
Obviously, Tesla plan to make use of it in the future.
It's the same reason why all of Electrify America's chargers are rated for 920V to 1000V (depending on the model).
At the time, there was no EV that can make use of that, but now there are.
China has an authorititan government. If the Chinese government want a standard that is incompatible with everyone else, then that's what it is.
You said yourself: it's rare, but not zero.And if it's so rare for vehicles to be transported between countries, why would people even bother engineering stuff like this? I mean, they'd sell close enough to zero of them that they won't even make back the NRE costs, right?
A niche can certainly be profitable.
Now that's a completely irrelevant comment. My question was whether an adapter or set of adapters exist that would allow me to charge. I wasn't asking anything about why so many standards exist, or whether it can be changed, just about whether I can do it or not. If I take my Tesla to the PRC, can I fast charge at Tesla SC sites with GB/T connectors, or not?
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Mockingbird
Member
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