If you fast charge, Tesla will permanently throttle charging

[jdw]

What is the difference between "permanently throttle charging" and "reduce future maximum fast charge rates"? LOL! To me the only difference is one is plain-spoken truth, the other sounds like marketing material Tesla would write.

But, if Tesla would put your statement verbatim on their website I'd be satisfied by that. Its not as good as "permanently throttle charging" but its close enough.

"permanently throttle charging" is simply not accurate or true. That implies a reduced rate of charging throughout the charging taper curve.

That is not what is happening here. What has been shown is a reduced rate of charge when begining a charge at a low SOC. The effect would be most pronounced for someone charging from say 10% to 40% and leaving. As the charging tapers we have seen show reduced initial rates and increased mid-band rates, the average time for someone charging from 10% to 80% are likely not all that different.

If they are different, it looks like a few minutes longer charging times with the benefit or intent of preserving battery capacity

 

[oktane]

Other than offending the Tesla worshippers, what was it about the Forbes article that was inaccurate?

Tesla's dirty laundry needs to be aired so they are forced to change their ways.

 

[JRP3]

Down the hole, Alice.

JRP3 is demonstrating the problem I was mentioning earlier regarding people who say "if only Tesla had been transparent ..." There is no limit to details that can be shared. And for a company like Tesla that is continually tweaking stuff, the demand is not even practical. So either you accept a certain amount of variance between cars as the price of continuous improvement and thank Tesla for keeping the differences minor except for the outlier, or you choose Toyota.

Tesla customer at time of purchase: "When I charge my car will supercharging harm the pack in any way?" Tesla: "No, supercharge as much as you want"

See the problem?

 

[QUBO]

I'm not convinced ChadMo DC charging is exactly the same as Tesla's DC supercharging. I.e. that exclusive charging with one is the same as the other in terms of charge time and battery degradation. I thought ChadMo charging was not as "smart" as SC. I understand that they both are direct DC-DC charging but I am of the opinion that SC uses different tapering rates and allows different battery leveling schemes than ChadMO. I understand that the OP was told they are the same, but I thought they were slightly different.

 

[AlMc]

Apologies if the Electrek article link on this has already been posted. Pages are flying by here.

Tesla explains why it limits Supercharging speed after high numbers of DC charges

 

[ABC2D]

Because he saved ~ $600 by sitting at ChadDemo chargers for 150 hours, and he did it for the money. This is the same guy who is now up in arms over the ~ 3 - 5 minutes he now loses on the occasions he uses a SuperCharger.

Since no rational person who makes more than half of US minimum wage in his locale would use ChaDemo this way, his behavior is perverse.

per·verse
pərˈvərs/
adjective

1. (of a person or their actions) showing a deliberate and obstinate desire to behave in a way that is unreasonable or unacceptable, often in spite of the consequences.
   • contrary to the accepted or expected standard or practice.
     "in two general elections the outcome was quite perverse"
     synonyms: illogical, irrational, unreasonable, wrong, wrong-headed
     "a verdict that is manifestly perverse"

You know what else is perverse? Your, for some reason unstoppable and unexplained, continuous personal attacks at OP. "synonyms: illogical, irrational, unreasonable, wrong, wrong-headed"

 

[JRP3]

I understand that they both are direct DC-DC charging but I am of the opinion that SC uses different tapering rates and allows different battery leveling schemes than ChadMO.

The charge is controlled by the vehicle, not the DC charger.

 

[SageBrush]

We are not free loaders, we are Tesla supporters that live in apartments. Even when we do not have to pay for the energy used while SC, because our car price included it (it is not free), it is an inconvenience to have to charge out of our homes. However, I decided to have the inconvenience in order to support Elon and his vision, and have the best car in the world. But that decision was made also based on the information provided in my multiple visits to the Tesla center in Freemont, before making the purchase. The Tesla representatives there never mentioned that supercharging only will have a penalty. On the contrary, they mentioned the SC as the alternative for apartment dwellers. I made my purchase based on the information provided, and even when I may not change my support for Tesla if there is a penalty for supercharging, I demand to know the actual facts from the horse's mouth.

I agree ... Apt dwellers without on-site AC charging represent a subset, perhaps a growing one, of Tesla owners that may be at odds with the general Tesla dictum to charge at home and use SuperChargers for road trips. On the other hand, if the sum total of the effect is another 3-5 minutes at the SuperCharger, it falls into just another host of factors that cause one car to age faster (and charge slower) than another and are not explicitly mentioned or quantified by Tesla.

Shade, for example.

 

[AlMc]

Other than offending the Tesla worshippers, what was it about the Forbes article that was inaccurate?

Tesla's dirty laundry needs to be aired so they are forced to change their ways.

Nothing inaccurate about the Forbes piece but while I am hardly considered a 'Tesla worshipper' by many who know me I think the Electrek one is more balanced and it appears they were willing to wait to receive a comment from Tesla from a request for information they sent in.

 

[MS16]

Well... you can only blame Tesla. If they'd proactively told this feature, this thread would be much smaller and with a different title. It really surprises me, that once again Tesla thought, that users would not notice.

I can list at least four cases, where Tesla told the truth only after customers had started to demand explanations;

1) Missing torque sleep in the first D models
2) Missing HPs in the P85Ds
3) Launchgate limiter
4) Charging limiter

Everyone of those caused unnecessary bad will, which would have been much smaller, IF Tesla had proactively told about these things.

5) We never discount (except when we do)

 

[AnxietyRanger]

What an overreaction! That's worse than the problem you're trying to solve. That would cause everyone to change behavior unnecessarily, and kill use of EVs. You want to change how everyone is told to charge in order to avoid a trivial increase in supercharging time that less than 1% of owners experience? I think you've lost all sense of proportion.

Several people on this thread have argued people already know to charge AC at home and Supercharge only when needed - rest have been called names...

Why would it then make a difference to recommend this out loud? If it is only 1% it can be added to the guidance that this is a precaution. But it would guide those with DC home chargers and nearby SpC's avoid unnecessary use.

And it would be honest and transparent.

You think we need to hide info to help EV adoption?

 

[TonyWilliams]

I'm not convinced ChadMo DC charging is exactly the same as Tesla's DC supercharging. I.e. that exclusive charging with one is the same as the other in terms of charge time and battery degradation. I thought ChadMo charging was not as "smart" as SC. I understand that they both are direct DC-DC charging but I am of the opinion that SC uses different tapering rates and allows different battery leveling schemes than ChadMO. I understand that the OP was told they are the same, but I thought they were slightly different.

The battery cells don't know the difference between the electrons from a CHAdeMO charger, or a Supercharger. They all look exactly the same.

Both the CHAdeMO and Supercharger are "dumb". They only do what the car tells them, up to the limit of the charger. The ONLY thing they do it supply amps that is compatible with the voltage of the battery. The car will request zero to 365 amps, and the charger will comply, again, up to the limits of the charger.

Currently, CHAdeMO stations in the US are all limited to 125 amps, as is the CHAdeMO adaptor. This summer, there will be 350 amp chargers installed in Baker, California.

 

[Electricfan]

"permanently throttle charging" is simply not accurate or true. That implies a reduced rate of charging throughout the charging taper curve.

That is not what is happening here. What has been shown is a reduced rate of charge when begining a charge at a low SOC. The effect would be most pronounced for someone charging from say 10% to 40% and leaving. As the charging tapers we have seen show reduced initial rates and increased mid-band rates, the average time for someone charging from 10% to 80% are likely not all that different.

If they are different, it looks like a few minutes longer charging times with the benefit or intent of preserving battery capacity

This statement is from the service record:
"According to Tesla engineers, this vehicle has seen significant DC fast charging and is now has permanently restricted DC charging speeds."

If that statement is true, you are minimizing it significantly. If that statement is true, there is no way to argue it should not be posted on the website so future buyers know what they're facing.

 

[AntronX]

I've added 6 people to my ignore list thanks to this thread. The difference in quality of users back in 2008 when I joined and now is extreme.

 

[JRP3]

From the Tesla Supercharger FAQs page:

I am not Supercharging as quickly as I expected. What could be happening?
Your vehicle and the Superchargers communicate to select the appropriate charging rate for your car. Supercharging rate may vary due to battery charge level, current use of the Supercharger station and extreme climate conditions. Your vehicle charges faster when the battery is at a lower state of charge and charging slows down as it fills up. Depending on your destination, charging to completely full is often not necessary.

Supercharging
All they need to add is something to the effect of "With age and/or frequent Supercharger use your peak charge rate may be reduced at some point".

 

[Electricfan]

And it still doesn't have any effect on battery life-- meaning capacity-- meaning range. Which is what you were concerned about when you asked the question, right? The fact that it may take a few minutes longer to supercharge if you supercharge so much that you're above the 99th percentile of supercharger use has nothing to do with battery life. And since superchargers with peak power above 90kW didn't even exist in 2013, just what was Tesla supposed to tell you? That if they developed a supercharger that started off at higher power for the first few minutes of charging when starting at a really low state of charge, and your battery has experienced more supercharging than what 99% of owners have used, then your car won't be able to take that higher power for a few minutes that doesn't currently exist now anyway? Is that what you're saying that Tesla didn't warn you about when you asked if supercharging would affect battery life? Give me a break.

Not sure you wanted a reply, since you said "Give me a break" at the end. If you didn't, please ignore this. But you're wrong - he specifically states Tesla is throttling charge rates to preserve range. Here are his words:

"We also want to ensure that our customers have the best experience at those Superchargers and preserve as much vehicle range as possible – even after frequent usage"

 

[MS16]

And that is exactly the issue here. "Some cases" turns out to be less than 1%.

It's unfortunate that this thread has such an inflammatory title (and likely is misleading a number of people). It makes it sounds as if Tesla is arbitrarily throttling people who fast charge, rather than slowing the charge rate slightly (like by 5 min) to protect the battery.

Where would people ever get that idea?

"According to Tesla engineers, this vehicle has seen significant DC fast charging and is now has permanently restricted DC charging speeds."

Permanently restricting DC charging speeds sounds a lot like throttling to me.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

From the Tesla Supercharger FAQs page:


Supercharging
All they need to add is something to the effect of "With age and/or frequent Supercharger use your peak charge rate may be reduced at some point".

CHAdeMO usage would need to be mentioned, but yes that would be a good start.

 

[jerry33]

A 1200 mile trip for the OP is a short trip for him? Jesus. And he still bought an electric car?

But my Tesla has been the best road trip car I've ever had--it even beats the DS-21 which was my previous favourite road trip car. I now have over 40K miles of road trips on it with some single trips over 5K miles. I would never go back to a gas car for road trips.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

It is notable that Tesla's current Supercharger FAQ lists all kinds of temporary conditions for slow speed but not this.

Seems like a significant omission IMO, considering the permanence.