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How much should the HOA charge? (I'm the HOA president)

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Very few panels can accommodate 60 circuit breaker handles, which is what would be required for 30 wall connectors. Most are 42.
Regardless of 208 or 240, you can put as many as will fit in the panel, then configure the system based on the panel or transformer’s maximum available power.

Tesla’s single line diagram is a simplified example. Your installation may vary.
I've used this series in some of my commercial projects. You would not use a residential panel in a commercial project.

 
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the idea that only high Kw charging is 'real' charging and nothing else is worth looking at
I concur. The question is: What is 'high Kw'? I'm just saying that ~3 kw (~208volts, 16 amps) is about the minimum that makes real sense under pretty much all conditions. 1.5 kw (120volts, 12 amps) dedicated will work in a pinch, at least in warm temperatures, for low-usage. Remember that the 80% rule requires 3.8 KW and 1.9 KW available.
If building new, I recommend budgeting at least 20 amps (allowing 16 Amps or ~3.3 KW) charging speeds per unit.
The Tesla guidance from the @Big Earl post
This is worth a read regarding Tesla commercial and multi-unit charging.


Note: while you can install more units on a 225 amp panel, Tesla recommends the above for the best user experience depending on application (apartment vs condo).
Is pretty much the best advice. Anything less will introduce hassles for users unless there is a reliable DCFC nearby.
Having worked with daily charging at 12, 16, 30, and 70 amps at 120 to 240 volts, as well as DCFC only, under different usage conditions and temperatures between -120F and +120F, for over 20 years, knowing thousands of EV drivers, having driven nearly 1/2 million EV miles, and being an Electrical Engineer, I speak from real experience here.
 
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I concur. The question is: What is 'high Kw'? I'm just saying that ~3 kw (~208volts, 16 amps) is about the minimum that makes real sense under pretty much all conditions. 1.5 kw (120volts, 12 amps) dedicated will work in a pinch, at least in warm temperatures, for low-usage. Remember that the 80% rule requires 3.8 KW and 1.9 KW available.
If building new, I recommend budgeting at least 20 amps (allowing 16 Amps or ~3.3 KW) charging speeds per unit.
The Tesla guidance from the @Big Earl post

Is pretty much the best advice. Anything less will introduce hassles for users unless there is a reliable DCFC nearby.
Having worked with daily charging at 12, 16, 30, and 70 amps at 120 to 240 volts, as well as DCFC only, under different usage conditions and temperatures between -120F and +120F, for over 20 years, knowing thousands of EV drivers, having driven nearly 1/2 million EV miles, and being an Electrical Engineer, I speak from real experience here.
-120F !?! What the eff
 
Entitled Tesla owner is trying to make his problem the Condo's problem. Management can install a charging station if they wish, as an ammenity, however they have no obligation to do so. They can allow residents to plug into existing outlets free or at a charge, but also no obligation to do so.

Condo mgt can see how much draw this guy is putting on their grid, and charge him accordingly. Should also make a small profit to pay back the costs of installation.

If they put in a community 14-50 socket or sockets, that would be super convenient for their residents, however deciding how to recover their electricity costs is pretty complicated.
 
This is worth a read regarding Tesla commercial and multi-unit charging.


Note: while you can install more units on a 225 amp panel, Tesla recommends the above for the best user experience depending on application (apartment vs condo).
In reference to the Tesla Wall Connector installation instructions, 12 amps minimum is recommended for overnight parking installations. This would be the power available at each Wall Connector if 100% of the Wall Connectors were in use, but in most situations they would not all be in use and cars that were actively charging would ordinarily charge faster. Tesla's minimum requirement at 100% utilization is 6 amps.

See page 25 of the instructions.

Groups of up to 16 Wall Connectors can be installed such that they will share the available power. For an installation with 30 Wall Connectors, there could be two groups of 15 each. For 12 amp per Wall Connector at 100% utilization this would require 180 amps, or 37,440 watts (at 208 volts) for each group of 15 Wall Connectors, or 74,880 watts for all 30 Wall Connectors.

A three phase 208 volt 250 amp panel has 89,960 watts available (250 x 208 x 1.73 = 89,960 watts).

This would not be cheap, but it is possible to do. The major problem would be ensuring there is adequate power, which likely would require installing an appropriate transformer, service, and wiring to a new panel.

The problem is there is no huge demand for this and no condo board wants to spend a lot of money for just a few EVs. In a 170 unit condo I am familiar with here in Boca, after about 10 240 volt circuits were installed to individual parking stalls (being billed at a flat monthly rate) they put a stop to it as this maxed out the parking garage's panel. (These circuits were installed at the unit owner's expense.) I just spoke with the manager of this building and she says there are no plans to do anything other than they installed two EVSEs in the valet parking area which are available first come first serve (for a fee). And this is in an area where there are a lot of EV's, probably only second to California.

I see this as a problem that needs to be resolved, before there can be mass adoption of EVs, but it won't be cheap and it won't be easy.

 
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I concur. The question is: What is 'high Kw'? I'm just saying that ~3 kw (~208volts, 16 amps) is about the minimum that makes real sense under pretty much all conditions. 1.5 kw (120volts, 12 amps) dedicated will work in a pinch, at least in warm temperatures, for low-usage. Remember that the 80% rule requires 3.8 KW and 1.9 KW available.
If building new, I recommend budgeting at least 20 amps (allowing 16 Amps or ~3.3 KW) charging speeds per unit.
The Tesla guidance from the @Big Earl post

Is pretty much the best advice. Anything less will introduce hassles for users unless there is a reliable DCFC nearby.
Having worked with daily charging at 12, 16, 30, and 70 amps at 120 to 240 volts, as well as DCFC only, under different usage conditions and temperatures between -120F and +120F, for over 20 years, knowing thousands of EV drivers, having driven nearly 1/2 million EV miles, and being an Electrical Engineer, I speak from real experience here.

The question to ask EV owners is 'how far do you drive on a daily and/or weekly basis'?

3kw/hr x 8 -12 hours = about 50% of a typical EV's battery capacity per nightly charge and a driving range of ~120 miles, which is about 3x the average daily commute.
 
The question to ask EV owners is 'how far do you drive on a daily and/or weekly basis'?

3kw/hr x 8 -12 hours = about 50% of a typical EV's battery capacity per nightly charge and a driving range of ~120 miles, which is about 3x the average daily commute.
Yes, I use between 10 to 30% of my battery for daily driving. But sometimes more. Perhaps an idea for a condo with limited capacity would be to install 120 volt 20 amp circuits for 16 amp charging, but install one or two 240 volt Wall Connectors set up for 32, 40 or 48 amp charging, that would be available when someone needs them occasionally for road trips, etc. Of course, this would require cooperation and reasonable accommodation by the EV community in that building, which may or may not be something that will happen. And such Wall Connectors should only be made available for those who have 120 volt charging in their regular parking stall so they are not over used by those who do not have charging for daily driving.

To avoid problems, perhaps the building management could have a sign up sheet, where the Wall Connectors were reserved for the night on a first come, first served basis, which residents could sign up before they went on a trip or knew they would be driving more the next day.

What do you think?
 
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Yes, I use between 10 to 30% of my battery for daily driving. But sometimes more. Perhaps an idea for a condo with limited capacity would be to install 120 volt 20 amp circuits for 16 amp charging, but install one or two 240 volt Wall Connectors set up for 32, 40 or 48 amp charging, that would be available when someone needs them occasionally for road trips, etc. Of course, this would require cooperation and reasonable accommodation by the EV community in that building, which may or may not be something that will happen. And such Wall Connectors should only be made available for those who have 120 volt charging in their regular parking stall so they are not over used by those who do not have charging for daily driving.

To avoid problems, perhaps the building management could have a sign up sheet, where the Wall Connectors were reserved for the night on a first come, first served basis, which residents could sign up before they went on a trip or knew they would be driving more the next day.

What do you think?
OK, using yourself as an example, if you're charging was limited to 110v/10a x 10hrs/nightly, and starting from Monday at 100% SOC, where would your SOC be on Friday?

When I have talked to our strata council, anything that involves EV owners cooperating is a non-starter. Self owned metered reporting and/or a flat fee per EV charging outlet based upon average weekly driving is OK. Strata will not manage access to a shared on-site charging station.
 
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The problem is there is no huge demand for this and no condo board wants to spend a lot of money for just a few EVs. In a 170 unit condo I am familiar with here in Boca, after about 10 240 volt circuits were installed to individual parking stalls (being billed at a flat monthly rate) they put a stop to it as this maxed out the parking garage's panel. (These circuits were installed at the unit owner's expense.) I just spoke with the manager of this building and she says there are no plans to do anything other than they installed two EVSEs in the valet parking area which are available first come first serve (for a fee). And this is in an area where there are a lot of EV's, probably only second to California.
This is precisely the problem that we're facing in our condo complex. For about the same money spent by the 10 owners above, there could have been 50-80 x 110v outlets installed, so that the inevitable crunch for access to any outlet for EV charging would be kicked down the line for about 10 years.
 
This is precisely the problem that we're facing in our condo complex. For about the same money spent by the 10 owners above, there could have been 50-80 x 110v outlets installed, so that the inevitable crunch for access to any outlet for EV charging would be kicked down the line for about 10 years.
how do you figure 10 2-pole outlets could turn into 80 single pole outlets? i would say 20 max?
 
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how do you figure 10 2-pole outlets could turn into 80 single pole outlets? i would say 20 max?
It depends on what those 10 installs were. If they were 50A each, that is 500A of capacity which could support ~66 15A 120v outlets.

For about the same money spent by the 10 owners above, there could have been 50-80 x 110v outlets installed

But there is no way that the cost to install 10) 14-50 outlets would be the same as 66) 15A 120v outlets. There is going to be a whole lot more wire and labor involved, as well as requiring a larger panel.

The way I see it, the only economical way to have a large number of effective charging spots is to use load-balanced EVSEs.

Going with so many 120v outlets would really require a way for people to pay for what they use. Something like Orange outlets, but they cost $500/each and then they charge $20/month plus 5% for the billing services. (~$16k/year + 5% for those 66 outlets.) And they still have to provide their own EVSE, which is way less convenient than having an EVSE with the cable right on the wall. Which makes it very not cost effective, at that point you are better off going with the Tesla Wall Connector for $475/$595 where Tesla only charges $0.01/kWh for the billing services. And yes, that same 500A of capacity can support 66 load-balanced Wall Connectors.
 
It depends on what those 10 installs were. If they were 50A each, that is 500A of capacity which could support ~66 15A 120v outlets.



But there is no way that the cost to install 10) 14-50 outlets would be the same as 66) 15A 120v outlets. There is going to be a whole lot more wire and labor involved, as well as requiring a larger panel.

The way I see it, the only economical way to have a large number of effective charging spots is to use load-balanced EVSEs.

Going with so many 120v outlets would really require a way for people to pay for what they use. Something like Orange outlets, but they cost $500/each and then they charge $20/month plus 5% for the billing services. (~$16k/year + 5% for those 66 outlets.) And they still have to provide their own EVSE, which is way less convenient than having an EVSE with the cable right on the wall. Which makes it very not cost effective, at that point you are better off going with the Tesla Wall Connector for $475/$595 where Tesla only charges $0.01/kWh for the billing services. And yes, that same 500A of capacity can support 66 load-balanced Wall Connectors.
I can bet that each install involved a 208v/50 amp or greater breaker at the main panel, given the cost.

Since each of the 10 installs was for 10 individual owners, each install was a one-off and so there's no economies of scale. One install with 5-10 subpanels, with each subpanel supporting ~8-16 x 110v installed outlets would probably cost about the same.

Strata/HOA could mandate that when an EV owner wants to install a charging station, they must install a subpanel and run their outlet from the subpanel and then be prepared to share the subpanel (on a cost recovery basis) upon request from other EV owners.
 
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The question to ask EV owners is 'how far do you drive on a daily and/or weekly basis'?
Yes, this is a good question, however, the answer is:

6-7 KW pretty much works for anyone
3 KW works for all but a very small few
1 - 1.5 KW works for some

What do you think?
I think:
anything that involves EV owners cooperating is a non-starter.
If cooperation is required for a system to be successful, then rules for use and an enforcer will be needed to ensure that one person doesn't hog the resource (search "Tragedy of the Commons").
 
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I can bet that each install involved a 208v/50 amp or greater breaker at the main panel, given the cost.

Since each of the 10 installs was for 10 individual owners, each install was a one-off and so there's no economies of scale. One install with 5-10 subpanels, with each subpanel supporting ~8-16 x 110v installed outlets would probably cost about the same.

Strata/HOA could mandate that when an EV owner wants to install a charging station, they must install a subpanel and run their outlet from the subpanel and then be prepared to share the subpanel (on a cost recovery basis) upon request from other EV owners.
no way 10 subpanels and 80 breakers cost the same as 10 208v breakers... not to mention how much money everyone is losing on the overhead of 110v charging
 
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no way 10 subpanels and 80 breakers cost the same as 10 208v breakers... not to mention how much money everyone is losing on the overhead of 110v charging
I disagree. The subpanel costs are minimal as are the costs of running the wire from the subpanel to the 110v outlets, because the wire runs are very short at that point. The major cost of each separate install was labour and with a single large scale install, there will be savings (especially if the subpanels can use 100a breakers so there's only 5 x 208v lines to run) there and of course with 110v outlets each EV owner is suppling their own EVSE.
 
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I disagree. The subpanel costs are minimal as are the costs of running the wire from the subpanel to the 110v outlets, because the wire runs are very short at that point. The major cost of each separate install was labour and with a single large scale install, there will be savings (especially if the subpanels can use 100a breakers so there's only 5 x 208v lines to run) there and of course with 110v outlets each EV owner is suppling their own EVSE.

yes but a single large scale install of 110v outlets would be a major mistake
 
This is precisely the problem that we're facing in our condo complex. For about the same money spent by the 10 owners above, there could have been 50-80 x 110v outlets installed, so that the inevitable crunch for access to any outlet for EV charging would be kicked down the line for about 10 years.
I can bet that each install involved a 208v/50 amp or greater breaker at the main panel, given the cost.

Since each of the 10 installs was for 10 individual owners, each install was a one-off and so there's no economies of scale. One install with 5-10 subpanels, with each subpanel supporting ~8-16 x 110v installed outlets would probably cost about the same.

Strata/HOA could mandate that when an EV owner wants to install a charging station, they must install a subpanel and run their outlet from the subpanel and then be prepared to share the subpanel (on a cost recovery basis) upon request from other EV owners.
The vast majority of the cost of the installation of the 10 240 volt circuits was the cost of the conduit and its installation labour. When I was last there they had installed some of the circuits, but there were no EVSE installed, and I have no idea if they installed 6-20, 14-30 or 14-50 outlets or EVSE, there was just conduit to some of the parking stalls and boxes with blank covers on them. The second biggest cost was the wire and the labour for pulling it through the conduit. The third biggest (and a distant third) was the Wall Connector or the Mobile Connector. Installing 50-80 120 volt circuits in this parking garage would have required vastly more conduit and be much more expensive, and there is no demand for that many circuits right now. This building was finished about 4 years ago. I don't know if there were EVSE with load management capabilities back then, but if someone at the building had thought through this, I think they could have limited the circuits to 20 amp 208 volt and could have stretched it out to maybe 20 or 25 circuits, but they would still eventually overload the electrical system's capabilities. I do agree with DuncanM that using sub panels in a large multi-level parking garage could definitely reduce the costs (but it wouldn't be "the same"). But please consider that using EVSE with load management capabilities, such as the Tesla Wall Connector, can further reduce the costs for large deployments as they can go as low as 6 amps, which at 208 volts is only 1,248 watts (less than 120 volt 12 amp charging) when necessary, but will usually charge much faster than 6 amps, with the benefit of being more efficient (perhaps even more than "marginally efficient" as I said above, it depends on the definition of "marginal)) and able to bill for the energy used with no additional hardware, and the wiring required is exactly the same as for a 120 volt circuit, except no GFCI outlets or breakers to pay for and fool with.

If I was planning such a system today, I would try and figure out a way to maximize the number of EVs that could be accommodated without having to increase the power coming into the building, whilst installing wiring, conduit, sub panels, EVSE, etc., that would not be wasted at the time, say 10, 20, whatever, years from now that the building's power capability eventually had to be increased.

It depends on what those 10 installs were. If they were 50A each, that is 500A of capacity which could support ~66 15A 120v outlets.

But there is no way that the cost to install 10) 14-50 outlets would be the same as 66) 15A 120v outlets. There is going to be a whole lot more wire and labor involved, as well as requiring a larger panel.

The way I see it, the only economical way to have a large number of effective charging spots is to use load-balanced EVSEs.

Going with so many 120v outlets would really require a way for people to pay for what they use. Something like Orange outlets, but they cost $500/each and then they charge $20/month plus 5% for the billing services. (~$16k/year + 5% for those 66 outlets.) And they still have to provide their own EVSE, which is way less convenient than having an EVSE with the cable right on the wall. Which makes it very not cost effective, at that point you are better off going with the Tesla Wall Connector for $475/$595 where Tesla only charges $0.01/kWh for the billing services. And yes, that same 500A of capacity can support 66 load-balanced Wall Connectors.
I do not know the amp capacity of the ~10 circuits, but it would not require 500 amps x 208 volts or 104 kW of capacity just due to the diversity effect of the way loads are not all on at the same time.

The manager told me the existing installations are grandfathered, but if those installations do put a load of 50 to 100 kW on the building (the building has a 1500 kVa transformer), that amount of power could be used much more efficiently by installing a system that uses EVSE that manage the load, although the exiting owners who were early adopters might have a thing or two to say about giving up what they have. Might require quite a bit of work by someone someday to straighten this out.

OK, using yourself as an example, if you're charging was limited to 110v/10a x 10hrs/nightly, and starting from Monday at 100% SOC, where would your SOC be on Friday?

When I have talked to our strata council, anything that involves EV owners cooperating is a non-starter. Self owned metered reporting and/or a flat fee per EV charging outlet based upon average weekly driving is OK. Strata will not manage access to a shared on-site charging station.
Some buildings may be different than yours. For example, the building I mentioned will reserve various club rooms for residents. They may be willing to do that for a couple of EVSE that would be used when needed, and why would anyone who has the 120 volt charging that you say is adequate for most people want to go to the trouble of doing that except for when they need it? This particular building has a full time front desk, and valet(s) who could manage and enforce the communal EVSE.

This discussion will never end. Each building has its own unique situation which is how much reserve capacity, if the HOA board is willing to work with the EV owners, and so on, but right now no HOAs (or very few) are forward thinking enough to want to deal with this issue.
 
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