How much should the HOA charge? (I'm the HOA president)

[hoa_ca]

hi Tesla owners,

I'm the president of the small HOA in San Francisco (not tesla owner myself)
and we have a new Tesla owner in the building.
Owner plugged the car on the HOA 110V outlet in the garage,
then we discovered that and are now figuring out a fair price to bill the owner.
As the car consumes 2x more than the entire HOA line, our bill tripled!

It's complicated ... could you help?

Ideally, the owner would install a separate line for the car.
We're ok with it, electricity is in the same garage as the car anyway.
Owner refuses to pay for it.

So if we share the HOA line:
1. First we have the on peak/off peak prices problem:
owner says the car is programmed to only charge off peak,
but we see a huge consumption during peak hours. ideas?
Can the UI of the car cause owners to misunderstand?

2. Also, owner does not understand why the amount reported
by the tesla app is far from the energy we clearly see is used
compared to before the car was plugged.
We're a small HOA, the power line is only used for lights and
a gas heated washing machine, so it's super predictable.
From my reading I understand the 110V is 80% efficient,
it would mean we should charge 25% more than reported by the tesla app?
Or should we use a power meter plug to measure?
(any links to a good reliable cheap smart meter that can handle that wattage?)

here's our proposal to the owner, what do you think?:

- ok for charging you off-peak rates, but we have to see
the on-peak usage go back to normal, because right now
it's much higher (x1.7) than before so you're probably charging at all hours.

- we can take your app screenshots as reference,
but it reports the energy charged in your battery,
not the energy consumed and paid by the HOA.
We need to multiply that by x1.25
that means in PG&E rates x1.25:
0.475$ in low season and 0.5375$ in high season.
or you buy a power meter plug, use it as reference
and you pay 0.38$ in low season and 0.43$ in high season.

Currently owners agrees to pay 32c and thinks
we're trying to take advantage of the situation
because it's far from what the tesla app shows.

Second problem is a level 2 charger:
Our building has an old grid, it's 110V only.
Owner would like us to upgrade the grid to plug a level 2 charger.
But the HOA does not need to upgrade yet.
Sure electricity usage is increasing as people add appliances,
but we're likely good for many many years.
When and if it happens, how much should the owner pay for the upgrade?

thanks for your advices

 

[ai4px]

I rented a room from a friend and installed an inexpensive kWh meter in the garage on the circuit that I used. These things are not revenue grade but they are cheap on eBay. If you can suffice a gentleman's agreement, this is your solution. Just agree on a date to read the meter and have him pay the indicated kWh at the going rate. I assume there may be time of use charges, so ya'll may need to work that out, maybe he can agree to charge outside those times with a handshake or he can agree to pay the peak kWh rate.

 

[arnolddeleon]

My quick assessment is the owner is slightly clueless. Very impressed that you understand the charging inefficiencies. You have 240V available to you. The question is panel space and service capacity. But if 20A 240 circuit would be so much better, it will be more than twice as fast and likely allow charging to finish during off peak.

It's relatively easy for the car to charge outside of off peak. It's particularly bad in this situation because they are charging at 120V. The car will charge outside of the charging window if there is not enough time to meet the car charge status target. Basically the car prioritizes getting the car to desired charging state as documented here:

Scheduled Charging and Scheduled Departure (tesla.com)

I don't think plug in monitors are great idea as the load will be 12A for extended periods of time.

My first choice is an EVSE with the right features.

Option 1: It can be become an amenity for the HOA (HOA pays for the installation) and everyone pays for their usage.

Option 2: Assuming every parking spot in the garage can be wired for power I would having a charging station/outlet be the owner's responsibility. The challenge is shared infrastructure cost. It is quite likely that you don't have enough capacity for everyone to have a "full power" charging station. The first person installing would potentially "take" all of the available capacity. You need to setup an agreement that the power will be shared. Several charging stations can be configured so they can "share" the power that is available.

I can spend another hour writing more but I'll pause to see if you are interested in hearing more and to see what others might say.

 

[gaswalla]

kudos to OP for seeking to understand (vs the Tesla owner he/she's dealing with).
until the HOA can quantify the khw consumed (and when), any negotiated deal is doomed to fail.
Tesla does offer a program for entities to charge for power consumption Charging Partners | Tesla
only thing is that the install cost would go to the hoa

 

[ucmndd]

Ideally, the owner would install a separate line for the car.
We're ok with it, electricity is in the same garage as the car anyway.
Owner refuses to pay for it.

To be honest this is where I’d stop the conversation. You are being perfectly reasonable, the owner is not.

I’d simply tell the owner they cannot use common area electrical outlets for vehicle charging and they need to install a charging solution on their own meter at their own cost.

 

[mswlogo]

I don’t trust Tesla to always be off peak and don’t trust the app to be accurate for actual grid usage.

Like someone mentioned there are cheap meters you can use to measure. You might even use a Kill A Watt meter since he is in 120V depending on how many amp he is pulling.

https://www.amazon.com/P3-P4400-Electricity-Usage-Monitor/dp/B00009MDBU

But you probably want something more rugged than that. If you get something a little smarter you can track if he is charging off peak or not too.

 

[father_of_6]

I’d simply tell the owner they cannot use common area electrical outlets for vehicle charging and they need to install a charging solution on their own meter at their own cost.

Agreed. Trying to gauge their usage on your account is difficult at best. They should be glad you're encouraging them to install their own charging solution... many posters on these forums struggle with their HOA for the same.

 

[tm1v2]

@hoa_ca Teslas don't really support off-peak charging on 110V. You can configure *either* a charging start time, *or* a target finish time, but not both at once, and there is no support for a strict end time.

With a proper 240V high amperage circuit those limitations are fine because the car will finish charging within a single off-peak session.

However on 110V, if you've been driving much, it can take far longer to finish recharging to a high state-of-charge. If you set off-peak start time the car will keep charging until it's done (charge limit reached) or manually stopped. Or if you set a target end time, it may start charging right away when plugged in, no matter if off-peak is still hours away.

You can adjust the charge limit each time you plug in to try to minimize these issues but probably this person isn't doing that.

And of course with 110V charging you pretty much need to have your car charging every moment it can just to keep up with your driving.

 

[NickFie]

If the EV owner uses HOA power to charge their vehicle, it is theft of service. Are members allowed to run an extension cord out their window to power their refrigerator or air conditioner from an HOA outlet?

ChargePoint chargers track power consumption. They also can enforce off-peak charging. That may be a good solution.

 

[SalisburySam]

As others have mentioned, kudos to @hoa_ca for trying to get ahead of this issue to the benefit and fairness of both the Tesla owner and others in the HOA. I’d suggest that it might be time to assess the homeowners for a likely expensive but also likely necessary power upgrade. You probably have a savings stash for horrible things that could happen like the roof needs replacing. Maybe a similar account to build funds for a power upgrade? Given the location (San Francisco) and the popularity of EVs in that part of the country, the current charging problem will only get worse as others in the building acquire EVs. What happens when the 2nd EV hits the circuit? Third? Will the HOA deny access?

If major electrical work is done, is there any way to connect the power in each garage to the circuit and meter of the owner’s unit? If so, they’d pay for the juice to fill their EV just like another appliance in their home and this issue totally goes away.

 

[Ostrichsak]

Kudos also to those here who have offered logical and sensical comments on this topic. This is a bigger picture conversation that's increasing in frequency as EV adoption continues the inevitable ramp up. What we don't need is a bunch of EV enthusiasts in open conversations like this politicking for their "side" and how "the man" needs to pay for the EV owners electrons because environment or politics. It's that type of entitled attitude that has helped to slow overall EV adoption and given Tesla owners a bad rep among non-Tesla owners. I know it's a very small percentage of the community but they were the vocal minority.

I know there's many smart and logical among our community so I'm proud to see more of those voices come forward and prove that, for the most part, we're pretty logical and community minded individuals. I was going to offer some logical and mutually beneficial ideas but it seems as though most would be redundant to what has already been stated above so I wanted thank everyone who participated in a helpful and informative conversation.

 

[theflyer]

Our approach is to average the price of electricity for the building over a rolling three month period. This is the all-in price (kwh consumed divided by total bill price). We track this over time. We add a cent or two and this is what we charge our EV owners who use a 110v circuit that is owned by the Association.

As others suggested above, we install a cheap consumer energy meter to track the electricity use. The EV owner has to pay for the meter and it's installation. Make sure to find one that tracks usage beyond 1 MWh. We had to learn this lesson the hard way.

We put the meter in a locked acrylic container so it can't be reset.

This approach has worked well for us. Using the average price addresses the peak/off peak issue well enough.

 

[srs5694]

The existing discussion seems good and productive. I have a few comments and suggestions....

Given the location (San Francisco) and the popularity of EVs in that part of the country, the current charging problem will only get worse as others in the building acquire EVs. What happens when the 2nd EV hits the circuit? Third? Will the HOA deny access?

This is a particularly important point. With EV adoption increasing rapidly, the desire, or even the need, to charge at condos and apartments is only going to increase. Even though it will be costly, it might be worth looking into better longer-term solutions now. It can take a while -- YouTuber Tesla Joy has been documenting her efforts to get a bank of Level 2 EVSEs installed at her condo. The project has taken well over a year and isn't yet complete. Here's the YouTube playlist of her videos on the topic. Also, the YouTube channel EV Buyer's Guide has a video on EV charging hardware that's suitable for small businesses. The same units might be useful for condos and apartments:

For a quicker solution to the immediate issue, I've heard of a metered individual outlet that you might consider installing, called the Orange Outlet. I have no direct personal experience with this outlet, but it might help. I'm not sure how it would interact with your need to measure peak vs. off-peak usage, though; that's something you'd have to research yourself.

Another option might be to rely on the Tesla's own data-logging capabilities. I use a service called TeslaFi, which logs everything the car does, including charging sessions -- I can see how much electricity the car is consuming on a minute-by-minute basis. (There are other similar apps and services; TeslaFi is just one of several.) By itself, this wouldn't solve the problem, though; you'd need a way to summarize the electricity used in charging by time of day, excluding off-site charges. Somebody's probably already written tools to do this, but I can't be sure of that, and I certainly don't have any URLs or pointers. This solution would obviously rely on the honesty of your Tesla driver to deliver accurate data, and the electricity out the plug will be slightly more than what TeslaFi logs, so you'd need to adjust for that. Furthermore, the car needs WiFi or cellular access while charging to log its data, so if this is an underground parking garage without such access, Tesla's data logging might not work at all. Still, with some trust and scripting, it could get the job done. This solution would work for future Tesla owners at your property, but not for other brands, unless their cars offer something similar. Thus, although this might work in this case, it's not a good long-term solution.

 

[theflyer]

Orange Outlet won't work everywhere as they have to have a relationship with the power company. It should work in most (all?) Of California.

Solving the L2 problem for existing multi-unit dwellings is quite tough. I continue trying to solve the problem at our condominium, but keep hitting road blocks. I'll get there eventually.

 

[arnolddeleon]

The Orange Outlet recommended above looks like a great option.

If that doesn't work here are other options but you will need to do more work.

You can monitor that circuit with a product that will give level of detail you may need. One such product is "Sense" Sense Flex Home Energy Monitor – Sense.com I have experience their products. I don't recommend them if you think the "AI" will tell you about your individual loads. The product is solid though if you have a current transducer on the circuit you want to monitor.

This is not scalable but can you to a solution for a little as the cost of unit about $300 plus an electrician's time. I going to guess around $200-$400.

Another path with products from Emporia. Emporia Energy Smart Home Energy Monitor Devices They have both a circuit monitor and an EVSE that does detail power stats. This is based on my reading of their website. I have no direct experience with them but I have heard about them to believe they will stick around some.

Another one to consider is EKM monitoring. Submetering Solutions For Any Scale & Budget Again I have no first hand experience but in the circles I've travelled they have been around long enough to believe they are solid. Their meters are revenue grade.

 

[ThomasD]

You could set a time limit on how long a person can have their car in a spot for chargers. I foresee issues in the future when there are say 20 to 30 people wanting/demanding chargers so they can charge their cars. People hogging the spots where the chargers are located. If you allow a person to have a charger in their designated parking spot, then you will have to allow everyone to install a charger in their private spot.

 

[father_of_6]

Ideal, in my opinion, is that parking spots are designated, and each tenant owns their own EVSE, connected to their own meter.

 

[NCAviator]

hi Tesla owners,

I'm the president of the small HOA in San Francisco (not tesla owner myself)
and we have a new Tesla owner in the building.
Owner plugged the car on the HOA 110V outlet in the garage,
then we discovered that and are now figuring out a fair price to bill the owner.
As the car consumes 2x more than the entire HOA line, our bill tripled!

It's complicated ... could you help?

Ideally, the owner would install a separate line for the car.
We're ok with it, electricity is in the same garage as the car anyway.
Owner refuses to pay for it.

So if we share the HOA line:
1. First we have the on peak/off peak prices problem:
owner says the car is programmed to only charge off peak,
but we see a huge consumption during peak hours. ideas?
Can the UI of the car cause owners to misunderstand?

2. Also, owner does not understand why the amount reported
by the tesla app is far from the energy we clearly see is used
compared to before the car was plugged.
We're a small HOA, the power line is only used for lights and
a gas heated washing machine, so it's super predictable.
From my reading I understand the 110V is 80% efficient,
it would mean we should charge 25% more than reported by the tesla app?
Or should we use a power meter plug to measure?
(any links to a good reliable cheap smart meter that can handle that wattage?)

here's our proposal to the owner, what do you think?:

- ok for charging you off-peak rates, but we have to see
the on-peak usage go back to normal, because right now
it's much higher (x1.7) than before so you're probably charging at all hours.

- we can take your app screenshots as reference,
but it reports the energy charged in your battery,
not the energy consumed and paid by the HOA.
We need to multiply that by x1.25
that means in PG&E rates x1.25:
0.475$ in low season and 0.5375$ in high season.
or you buy a power meter plug, use it as reference
and you pay 0.38$ in low season and 0.43$ in high season.

Currently owners agrees to pay 32c and thinks
we're trying to take advantage of the situation
because it's far from what the tesla app shows.

Second problem is a level 2 charger:
Our building has an old grid, it's 110V only.
Owner would like us to upgrade the grid to plug a level 2 charger.
But the HOA does not need to upgrade yet.
Sure electricity usage is increasing as people add appliances,
but we're likely good for many many years.
When and if it happens, how much should the owner pay for the upgrade?

thanks for your advices

So a couple of thoughts. I live in a Condo in North Carolina. Most Condo building have a separate CB panel for common area power (Lights and such). It is separate from each unit CB panel. Most have very light loads with no heavy equipment like HVAC. So you probably have a 100A or 200A common panel.

As a Condo Board, you should be thinking the long game not just this one owner. In CA, with your current government, the transition to EV with be heavily subsidized and faster then the rest of the country. Having a good EV infrastructure for all your owners will be a marketing plus and make your units more attractive.

The charging equipment companies have been slow to provide good multi-use charging panels and good price. They like to charge an unrealistic price for their management software.

What we did at our unit was install one unit to our common panel and put in a 60W CB to provide 240V 48A charger. That allows most to charge in less than 4 hours.

We set the unit up to only charge at off-peak time in the charger software.

The challenge is when you have more than one car, splitting the cost to each owner is problematic. Most chargers have software that provides a charging report that can be exported. Unfortunately most do not identify the vehicle that was pluged in.

Some electric companies and charger hardware companies have programs for homeowners. Few have programs for Condos or Apartments.

If you have dedicated parking spaces and no common spaces then it will be challenging to put in common charging points.

I anticipate that the market will figure this all out in the next years. In the short term is will be up to each Condo to determine what works for them.

The Infrastructure act had $ Billions for charging and the $ are flowing to each state to pass out to their groups.

Good Luck

 

[ucmndd]

You could set a time limit on how long a person can have their car in a spot for chargers. I foresee issues in the future when there are say 20 to 30 people wanting/demanding chargers so they can charge their cars. People hogging the spots where the chargers are located. If you allow a person to have a charger in their designated parking spot, then you will have to allow everyone to install a charger in their private spot.

I can’t say for certain but based on OP’s description of the problem and location I suspect they’re talking about a rather small ~4 to maybe 10 unit building. I don’t think the challenges you’re describing are particularly applicable.

 

[houstonian]

Ideally, the owner would install a separate line for the car.
We're ok with it, electricity is in the same garage as the car anyway.
Owner refuses to pay for it.

First off kudos to you for taking the time to dig in and figure out a solution. HOA's don't have the, uh, best reputation for doing so...so thanks for taking the time.

Can you clarify this: the owner does not want to pay for usage or the owner does not want to pay for the install cost for a new meter or the owner does not want to pay for anything?

My initial thoughts center around two approaches:

1. The owner pays to have a new meter installed and then usage is billed to a plan s/he sets up and pays for. Pros: keeps the issue out of the HOA's hair. Cons: what if another resident buys an EV? Is this a viable solution for 2, 3, 10, etc?

2. The HOA covers the install cost of a meter, charging infrastructure, as well as the cost of the electricity used. Costs are then billed back to user(s) of the service at some reasonable rate (someone upthread mentioned whatever the Kw price is + $0.01/Kwh). Pros: more of a long-term solution which stays with the building, can be expanded (or at least built to be expanded) if more than one EV driver needs to charge. Cons: initial capital outlay, ongoing allocation of costs to owners.