GM Chevy Volt

[brianman]

I can't say I understand the obsession with what the Volt is called and the hate it gets because the engine sometimes connects to the wheels directly. They could have easily made it so the engine is only a generator, but they put in the extra time and expense of making the vehicle as efficient as they could which should be commended, not condemned.

It really doesn't have to be as complicated as some people make it, I can explain everything you need to know about the Volt powertrain modes in two simple sentences:

When it has power in the battery its an EV, and when it doesn't its a hybrid. When its a hybrid sometimes the engine is just a generator and sometimes it powers the wheels directly, whichever is more efficient at the time.

I'll try to help.

1. People don't hate the Volt for the tech decisions or the naming.
2. Some people disagree with the naming of vehicles such as the Volt by the manufacturer.
3. None of the names applied to the Volt have been intended as hateful (to my knowledge).
4. The money of citizens (well, taxpayers) is being spent based on naming due to current government policy. That makes naming matter.
5. Many people want public money spent less, but if spent ... spent well. Some consider non-BEV investments in vehicle R&D as "not spent well". This creates a natural frustration/angst/etc. for those that feel used by FUD-sters playing the terminology game to get public money for their products.
6. Some people (like me) care about the terminology FUD issue on its own merits (i.e. regardless of the public policy / financial impact).

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Much like a Model S drags around a large, heavy, and expensive battery pack that is far in excess of what a typical owner uses on their typical daily drive. Nevertheless, I want my future 3rd gen Tesla to have an optional 250+ mile battery pack so it is there for my convenience when I need it.

Terminology clarification:
Are you wanting a smaller battery option (i.e. opt out of the 250+ mile battery pack) or for the "small to 250+" feature to be user installable/removable?

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InsideEVs.com calls it a Monthly Plug-In Sales Scorecard. Differentiation matters more to individuals than industry analysts.

Now there's a significant difference though. I don't think there's much disagreement that the Volt fits the "Plug-In" category nicely.

Then again, RC cars arguably fit that category as well. As would cars with a small battery that lasts for only 3 feet of propulsion.

 

[GSP]

.......It really doesn't have to be as complicated as some people make it, I can explain everything you need to know about the Volt powertrain modes in two simple sentences:

When it has power in the battery its an EV, and when it doesn't its a hybrid. When its a hybrid sometimes the engine is just a generator and sometimes it powers the wheels directly, whichever is more efficient at the time.

This is the best two sentence explanation I have ever seen. It is not easy to make things simple.

"It acts as a BEV until it runs out then it is a hybrid" - dsm363

Isn't that true of all hybrids? :biggrin:

Larry

True of the Volt and i3, but not of any other hybrid. They do not act like BEVs ever because they cannot perform in EV mode like a BEV can.

GSP

 

[brianman]

When it has power in the battery its an EV, and when it doesn't its a hybrid.

So it's a vehicle that is both an EV and a hybrid. Let me rephrase that...

It's a combination of A (EV) and B (hybrid).

Doesn't that make it a "hybrid" (A U B)?

 

[JRP3]

This is the best two sentence explanation I have ever seen. It is not easy to make things simple.

GSP

Simple and accurate is even more difficult:

When it has power in the battery its an EV

No, it acts like an EV, but it's always a hybrid, since it doesn't magically eject the ICE, gas tank, exhaust, etc. When a Prius moves slowly in a parking lot on battery alone it's not an EV, though at that moment it's acting like one.

 

[dsm363]

Bloggers who track ev sales call it electric so do the manufacturer

Bloggers are never wrong and manufacturers so exaggerate claims about their products ever I bet too.
Again, who cares. It's electric for the first 40 miles then it burns gas. Pretty simple actually.

 

[jerry33]

Isn't that true of all hybrids? :biggrin:

No. Hybrids like the Prius (not the PiP) are seldom in the EV only mode only. Usually both EV and gas are operating (there is no gas only mode). EV only mode is limited to:

1. The first minute after starting (the gas engine is running after the first seven seconds, but it's not providing any power--this can be verified by the negative Ignition timing.)

2. When the power demand is so low that running the gas engine would be inefficient. (Usually the gas engine is more efficient than EV because every bit of power in the Prius comes from the gas tank--good mpg is from only using the EV mode when it will benefit.)

3. When stopped and the battery has enough charge.

4. When the EV button is pushed (and even then it will go into gas + EV mode unless you are very careful).

 

[Jeff N]

Terminology clarification:
Are you wanting a smaller battery option (i.e. opt out of the 250+ mile battery pack) or for the "small to 250+" feature to be user installable/removable?

Neither. I was saying that I plan to order the model 3 with the optional larger battery that presumably will have a range of at least 250 miles according to the EPA window sticker. I was also attempting to make the point that dragging around an ICE and gas tank when driving electric on the Volt is equivalent to dragging around a lot more battery in a Tesla than is used on a typical commute day. I was just making an observation. I wasn't suggesting that excess battery modules should be removable nor am I suggesting that the ICE and gas tank should be removable. I was suggesting that criticism by an 85 kWh Model S owner that the Volt has to drag around an unused ICE much of the time is hypocritical.

 

[jerry33]

I was suggesting that criticism by an 85 kWh Model S owner that the Volt has to drag around an unused ICE much of the time is hypocritical.

That's not the criticism I have as an 85 owner. My complaint is GM trying to use semantics to call a hybrid an electric car. Yes, it's a different kind of hybrid than the Prius which is a different kind of hybrid than the Honda, but they are all still hybrids.

 

[Topspin]

InsideEVs.com calls it a Monthly Plug-In Sales Scorecard. Differentiation matters more to individuals than industry analysts.

They list it in ev's above tesla with the leaf

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Bloggers are never wrong and manufacturers so exaggerate claims about their products ever I bet too.
Again, who cares. It's electric for the first 40 miles then it burns gas. Pretty simple actually.

The guys at inside ev are wrong too, they need to be pointed here for schooling

 

[JRP3]

I was suggesting that criticism by an 85 kWh Model S owner that the Volt has to drag around an unused ICE much of the time is hypocritical.

Not really, because the entire pack is always used to provide power, it's not sectioned off and inactive. Not only does the large pack provide more range it also provides more power and performance, and since the larger pack is normally putting out a lower C rate it also provides a longer pack life.

 

[dhrivnak]

That's not the criticism I have as an 85 owner. My complaint is GM trying to use semantics to call a hybrid an electric car. Yes, it's a different kind of hybrid than the Prius which is a different kind of hybrid than the Honda, but they are all still hybrids.

I disagree because unlike most Hybrids the Volt can do 70% of its driving as a pure EV. A hybrid is rarely emission free but the Volt normally is.

While I have a Tesla my wife's car will likely be a Volt as even with a Model S it is impossible to make it to our three most traveled trips as the Supercharger network has many gaps. So we either more than double driving time or get a Volt that is mostly battery powered.

 

[JRP3]

I disagree because unlike most Hybrids the Volt can do 70% of its driving as a pure EV. A hybrid is rarely emission free but the Volt normally is.

The Volt can do 100% of it's driving in EV mode, or 0% of it's driving in EV mode, depending on the conditions of it's operation and the actions of the driver.

 

[Jeff N]

Not really, because the entire pack is always used to provide power, it's not sectioned off and inactive. Not only does the large pack provide more range it also provides more power and performance, and since the larger pack is normally putting out a lower C rate it also provides a longer pack life.

The engine and gas tank in my Volt aren't presently designed to be routinely removed and put back either. I see no reason why it couldn't be designed to support that even though it's impractical in reality. Similarly, the Model S pack could be redesigned to allow almost 1/3 of it to be removed when not needed for routine commuting. In both cars you would probably drop about 300-400 pounds.

The extra power and performance provided by that removable section is not used by many drivers on routine commutes. I'm frequently surrounded by Teslas whenever I'm on the road since I live in San Francisco and work in Silicon Valley. I never see them accelerate faster than 200 kW worth of power. Removing that section of the pack would reduce an 85 kWh pack down to a 60 kWh pack. Less weight. Increased efficiency. It's all doable but nobody would actually want to do it on their car. It's rhetorical.

As for battery life, it probably would put a little extra stress on the permanent 60 kWh section but the removable section would have no stress and could be stored at 30-40% SOC in a cool environment so it would calendar age slowly. Or, you could put it to work as stationary storage for your home in order to save money through buying all your utility grid power at off-peak rates and reinstall it in your car for vacation road trips when you are using little power at home. If and when the 60 kWh portion needs replacing it would be cheaper to replace than an entire 85 kWh pack....

 

[green1]

I disagree because unlike most Hybrids the Volt can do 70% of its driving as a pure EV. A hybrid is rarely emission free but the Volt normally is.

So what you're saying is that someone finally figured out how to build a hybrid correctly.

The Volt is what the FIRST hybrid car should have been, I've argued since day one that hybrids never should have had 2 separate drive trains, and that they should have been a generator hooked to a bank of batteries and an electric motor. (and a charge plug, because, why not?)

This doesn't make it an electric car, it just makes it a really nice hybrid.

I think the Volt is a pretty good vehicle, but GM only calls it an electric vehicle because it's better PR.

 

[scaesare]

...a generator hooked to a bank of batteries and an electric motor.

What you are (I believe) describing is series hybrid.

The Volt is not strictly a series hybrid. In some of its modes of operations it does. In others it doesn't, sometimes running battery-only, in other cases running in parallel mode.

 

[green1]

What you are (I believe) describing is series hybrid.

The Volt is not strictly a series hybrid. In some of its modes of operations it does. In others it doesn't, sometimes running battery-only, in other cases running in parallel mode.

I only just realized that, and my disappointment over what was supposed to be GM's entry in to the EV market grew substantially... I thought someone had finally figured out how to build a hybrid at least, but it appears even that was too much to ask for. I used to think Tesla was 10 years ahead of the competition... I'm starting to realize it's even more.

 

[Jeff N]

I only just realized that, and my disappointment over what was supposed to be GM's entry in to the EV market grew substantially... I thought someone had finally figured out how to build a hybrid at least, but it appears even that was too much to ask for. I used to think Tesla was 10 years ahead of the competition... I'm starting to realize it's even more.

What are your specific underlying concerns that make you think that series hybrid is the best answer?

 

[liuping]

The Volt can do 100% of it's driving in EV mode, or 0% of it's driving in EV mode, depending on the conditions of it's operation and the actions of the driver.

The only way a Volt would be an EV 0% of the time is if the it was never plugged in, or it's own disable EV mode manually ever time they go in the car.

Stickily speaking, a Model S does 0% of it's driving as an EV, if you don't plug it in either.

 

[dsm363]

The only way a Volt would be an EV 0% of the time is if the it was never plugged in, or it's own disable EV mode manually ever time they go in the car.

Stickily speaking, a Model S does 0% of it's driving as an EV, if you don't plug it in either.

The Volt can still drive without plugging in though asking as you add gas. Model S can't.

 

[scaesare]

What are your specific underlying concerns that make you think that series hybrid is the best answer?

I would be interested to know the answer to this question as well.

It seems that for many folks this is an ideal. I'm just not sure if there's any reason other than the "elegant idea" of it.

However, as most of the engineering teams have found out, if you are going to build a hybrid with an ICE in it, there are a number of operational modes where avoiding the conversion losses of ICE->generator->(batteries)->(inverter)->motor make it preferable for the ICE to provide some direct locomotive force to the wheels.

If I'm going to choose to drive a vehicle that has an ICE in it (regardless of also having a battery/motor) my preference would be that the most efficient use is made of each drop of gasoline. If that means clutching the ICE in to the drive train, so be it.