FW updates OTA vs WiFi?

[FlasherZ]

This might get solved best if there were a way to prompt a software update, so that all the people on this thread screaming "OMGWTFBBQ I WON'T GET MY UPDATE IN THE FIRST MINUTE IT'S RELEASED!!!11!!ELEVENTYONE!!!11!!" can run out to their cars every half-hour to click "update" while those who don't mind waiting until it's their turn get them in the normal course of business.

 

[brianman]

This might get solved best if there were a way to prompt a software update, so that all the people on this thread screaming "OMGWTFBBQ I WON'T GET MY UPDATE IN THE FIRST MINUTE IT'S RELEASED!!!11!!ELEVENTYONE!!!11!!" can run out to their cars every half-hour to click "update" while those who don't mind waiting until it's their turn get them in the normal course of business.

Agreed. I think an "update me sometime today please" is long overdue. "Update me now (within 30 minutes)!" is asking a bit much though.

 

[wdimagineer]

I'm not disappointed. I just think it's silly. Not everybody has access to WiFi in their garage. I honestly didn't know the car even had WiFi capabilities until these recent firmware discussions came up. Even then I was expecting the car to act as a hotspot and not the other way around. The point behind the 3G/4G coverage is to ensure the car is always connected. That should be a positive, not a penalty.

My condo is completely useless. I was nearly forced to sell the car over charging issues but thankfully I seem to have the upper hand with that now.

It's about time they added a "check for update" feature. Can't be hard to implement, and just about every other device we use on a daily basis has this capability.

As for the time to update, I'm sorry if I want quicker access to new features and functionality. The 5.0 update addresses one of my biggest concerns I have with this vehicle - navigation. It's very distracting to try and follow the map in its current "north up" orientation. Outside of that the media player is a disaster and there are lots of changes Tesla can make to improve the overall experience. Some things, like being able to select tracks from the steering wheel, enhance safety. (I have e-mails back and forth with them about this and other features.)

When I see a new feature that specifically addresses a concern I have, I don't want to have to wait an eternity to get it. That was the whole point of this.

Tesla has just made some very peculiar decisions lately and this to me is one of them. While it makes sense, I think there should be other ways to deal with it.

 

[brianman]

(1) I'm not disappointed. I just think it's silly. Not everybody has access to WiFi in their garage. (2) I honestly didn't know the car even had WiFi capabilities until these recent firmware discussions came up. (3) Even then I was expecting the car to act as a hotspot and not the other way around. (4) The point behind the 3G/4G coverage is to ensure the car is always connected. (5) That should be a positive, not a penalty.

My condo is completely useless. I was nearly forced to sell the car over charging issues but thankfully I seem to have the upper hand with that now.

(6) It's about time they added a "check for update" feature. (7) Can't be hard to implement, (8) and just about every other device we use on a daily basis has this capability.

(9) Tesla has just made some very peculiar decisions lately and this to me is one of them. While it makes sense, I think there should be other ways to deal with it.

1. It's not silly. They partly enabled a feature that was promised long ago. It saves them bandwidth which lowers Tesla's costs. It speeds up delivery of updates (higher bandwidth over typical home internet than over 3G) which helps customers. Everybody wins except those that seem to always find reasons to be unhappy.
2. It was discussed prior to my reservation in November 2011. It's not like this is new information.
3. Agreed, I want the hotspot functionality (which was at least hinted if not promised back when) as well.
4. My politics are going to show again here. Let's chant this together: "When someone else gets something good, that doesn't mean I'm being penalized."
5. Agreed, as per post prior to yours.
6. I can't speak to this. There's a long bloody history of updates gone badly across various technologies.
7. Agreed. Everything wants to dial home constantly. Personally I find it terribly annoying that I have constant prompts from everything that has software in it constantly needing updates.
8. Totally disagree.

 

[dsm363]

I'm not disappointed. I just think it's silly. Not everybody has access to WiFi in their garage. I honestly didn't know the car even had WiFi capabilities until these recent firmware discussions came up. Even then I was expecting the car to act as a hotspot and not the other way around. The point behind the 3G/4G coverage is to ensure the car is always connected. That should be a positive, not a penalty.

My condo is completely useless. I was nearly forced to sell the car over charging issues but thankfully I seem to have the upper hand with that now.

It's about time they added a "check for update" feature. Can't be hard to implement, and just about every other device we use on a daily basis has this capability.

As for the time to update, I'm sorry if I want quicker access to new features and functionality. The 5.0 update addresses one of my biggest concerns I have with this vehicle - navigation. It's very distracting to try and follow the map in its current "north up" orientation. Outside of that the media player is a disaster and there are lots of changes Tesla can make to improve the overall experience. Some things, like being able to select tracks from the steering wheel, enhance safety. (I have e-mails back and forth with them about this and other features.)

When I see a new feature that specifically addresses a concern I have, I don't want to have to wait an eternity to get it. That was the whole point of this.

Tesla has just made some very peculiar decisions lately and this to me is one of them. While it makes sense, I think there should be other ways to deal with it.

I don't think it is meant to penalize anyone, rather to help off load the updates as much as possible to the 'free to Tesla' internet would have already paid for in their homes. They are likely paying a ton of money to AT&T to send out these I presume large updates so they are trying to reduce that cost. It will mean they might even be able to get the updates out on 3G quicker as many people will be able to connect to WiFi so they won't need 3G for the update moving others up the list.

This might mean you get your update a little later though on 3G. A check for update when you are within wifi range would be a good option and maybe you could indicate with the same button that you want to be placed in line for the update when you have 3G coverage. Most people won't care and will likely just update when it arrives. Others could ask to be placed earlier in line maybe.

Wifi was one of the many features that was promised but took time to get here. Just because what you want isn't there now doesn't mean it won't be in the future. If you have an idea about how you think it should be handled, e-mail ownership and they'll pass it along.

 

[wdimagineer]

I don't think it is meant to penalize anyone, rather to help off load the updates as much as possible to the 'free to Tesla' internet would have already paid for in their homes. They are likely paying a ton of money to AT&T to send out these I presume large updates so they are trying to reduce that cost. It will mean they might even be able to get the updates out on 3G quicker as many people will be able to connect to WiFi so they won't need 3G for the update moving others up the list.

This might mean you get your update a little later though on 3G. A check for update when you are within wifi range would be a good option and maybe you could indicate with the same button that you want to be placed in line for the update when you have 3G coverage. Most people won't care and will likely just update when it arrives. Others could ask to be placed earlier in line maybe.

Right. So I agree with them, and think WiFi updates are a good thing. But I think they need to provide better alternatives to get updates sooner. After all, there are 2 types of people who bought this car: the techie/gearheads, and everybody else. As the former, I want updates immediately. A "check for update" button would be a great benefit. Or, like I stated earlier, have the ability to download firmware updates to a USB memory stick. BMW, VW, Audi, and Volvo have done this for years.

I guess my concern is that both at home and at work I get little to no 3G coverage in my parking garages. My commute isn't that lengthy, and certainly wouldn't be long enough to download an update package. So when would it download?

 

[Rodolfo Paiz]

Tesla may also have an algorithm to determine which cars get the update in which sequence, so they can test configurations. We simply do not -- and in fact cannot -- know when we'll get the update. The same thing happens to me with my cell phone... even though it has a "check for update" button, I never know when it'll actually receive said update because the carrier staggers releases. As far as my car goes, I just got 4.5 a week ago. Why? I don't know. I'd have liked to see it earlier (MUCH earlier, for lots of reasons) but that's what happened, and Tesla isn't somehow harming me by updating others first.

Today, you cannot check for updates.
Today, you cannot influence whether you receive the update earlier or later.
Today, you are connected via 3G and will receive updates that way.

In the future, when Tesla adds WiFi downloading to their update-distribution methods, NONE of those three things will change. Your situation is not improving, but neither is it deteriorating by a single iota. You're not being penalized.

 

[dsm363]

Right. So I agree with them, and think WiFi updates are a good thing. But I think they need to provide better alternatives to get updates sooner. After all, there are 2 types of people who bought this car: the techie/gearheads, and everybody else. As the former, I want updates immediately. A "check for update" button would be a great benefit. Or, like I stated earlier, have the ability to download firmware updates to a USB memory stick. BMW, VW, Audi, and Volvo have done this for years.

I guess my concern is that both at home and at work I get little to no 3G coverage in my parking garages. My commute isn't that lengthy, and certainly wouldn't be long enough to download an update package. So when would it download?

I would call ownership and speak with them. Might be good to hear from people like you with little to no 3G or wifi at home and ask how you handle making your car available for updates. I'd keep pushing your condo even though that is likely a losing battle about extending 3G or wifi in the garage. I realize they are likely unwilling to help you out.

 

[wdimagineer]

1. It's not silly. They partly enabled a feature that was promised long ago. It saves them bandwidth which lowers Tesla's costs. It speeds up delivery of updates (higher bandwidth over typical home internet than over 3G) which helps customers. Everybody wins except those that seem to always find reasons to be unhappy.

Short term, yes, it will probably save them money. I suspect they have some kind of pay-as-you-go pricing with AT&T, as opposed to a data bucket allocated to each car. The less data each car uses, the less money Tesla spends. This makes sense. And I agree with it.

BUT...

Long term, they still run the servers necessary to deploy the updates. WiFi or 3G, the cost of distribution does NOT change. They still need to pay for the bandwidth required whether someone connects via WiFi or 3G. I know how expensive this can be. I run the infrastructure for a product used by some 10M people.

When the Tesla connectivity trial runs out, should I choose to opt to pay for data coverage, that should entitle me to get updates at the same speed as everybody else. After all, I am then paying for the data service - NOT Tesla. That's all I'm saying.

- - - Updated - - -

I would call ownership and speak with them. Might be good to hear from people like you with little to no 3G or wifi at home and ask how you handle making your car available for updates. I'd keep pushing your condo even though that is likely a losing battle about extending 3G or wifi in the garage. I realize they are likely unwilling to help you out.

I've had a couple conversations with them regarding offline update distribution. They seem to be open to the idea but I know they're busy with other things at the moment.

 

[dsm363]

Short term, yes, it will probably save them money. I suspect they have some kind of pay-as-you-go pricing with AT&T, as opposed to a data bucket allocated to each car. The less data each car uses, the less money Tesla spends. This makes sense. And I agree with it.

BUT...

Long term, they still run the servers necessary to deploy the updates. WiFi or 3G, the cost of distribution does NOT change. They still need to pay for the bandwidth required whether someone connects via WiFi or 3G. I know how expensive this can be. I run the infrastructure for a product used by some 10M people.

When the Tesla connectivity trial runs out, should I choose to opt to pay for data coverage, that should entitle me to get updates at the same speed as everybody else. After all, I am then paying for the data service - NOT Tesla. That's all I'm saying.

Sending out these large updates may cost Tesla more than they are charging per month for the connectivity package (just a guess though as I don't know how big the updates are or what their data plan is). The updates will always likely be staggered over time anyway as any problems are much better over a small number of initial users so they can halt the update rather than sending out all updates at once.

 

[Rodolfo Paiz]

I understand your concern about not having good 3G where you park. And yes, it's certainly something to discuss with Ownership, especially since it's such a reasonable and logical idea to be able to download the update via USB at some point in the future.

The only thing where I disagree with you right now is your belief that Tesla's cost to distribute an update does not vary whether you use WiFi or 3G to get it. If your car uses WiFi, the connection request comes to Tesla's servers through their regular Internet connection. If your car uses 3G, the connection goes to Tesla's own 3G modem. The cost per unit of transport is definitely different in those two cases. Each GB of cellular data costs me $10, whereas a full month of heavy usage on a 100 Mbps pipe still only costs about $120.

 

[wdimagineer]

Sending out these large updates may cost Tesla more than they are charging per month for the connectivity package (just a guess though as I don't know how big the updates are or what their data plan is). The updates will always likely be staggered over time anyway as any problems are much better over a small number of initial users so they can halt the update rather than sending out all updates at once.

I have no idea what their plan infrastructure looks like but am curious to know.

Talking to Service and Engineering today, they actually already do this. There are certain cars that are prioritized for updates over others. This gets the update in the field, on real metal, so they can test and gather feedback ahead of a larger rollout. I'm apparently now on this list. If there's a problem, they can pull it back before a larger general release.

Basically, Tesla just needs to implement something to account for owners that don't have reliable coverage or access to WiFi, and when they do have access, make it quick and painless to get updates done.

- - - Updated - - -

The only thing where I disagree with you right now is your belief that Tesla's cost to distribute an update does not vary whether you use WiFi or 3G to get it. If your car uses WiFi, the connection request comes to Tesla's servers through their regular Internet connection. If your car uses 3G, the connection goes to Tesla's own 3G modem. The cost per unit of transport is definitely different in those two cases. Each GB of cellular data costs me $10, whereas a full month of heavy usage on a 100 Mbps pipe still only costs about $120.

I'm not sure you're following. Tesla's servers sit on the public internet somewhere. Any request, whether 3G or WiFi, is routed to these servers over the same internet connection(s). There's no 3G modem sitting at Tesla's Deer Creek office. Distribution costs from this point are the same, irrespective of the requesting medium. The server doesn't need to differentiate between mobile or terrestrial connections.

With the current scheme, Tesla is paying for 3G connectivity and bandwidth. So yes, this is expensive. But in future, Tesla will be requiring owners to pay for 3G connectivity. When this happens, Tesla is no longer subsidizing the data. Their monthly bandwidth costs on a per car basis drop/disappear, but the bandwidth charges from their servers to the internet remain the same.

 

[Rodolfo Paiz]

I'm apparently now on this list.

So we can mark this issue as closed?

 

[dsm363]

I'm not sure you're following. Tesla's servers sit on the public internet somewhere. Any request, whether 3G or WiFi, is routed to these servers over the same internet connection(s). There's no 3G modem sitting at Tesla's Deer Creek office. Distribution costs from this point are the same, irrespective of the requesting medium. The server doesn't need to differentiate between mobile or terrestrial connections.

With the current scheme, Tesla is paying for 3G connectivity and bandwidth. So yes, this is expensive. But in future, Tesla will be requiring owners to pay for 3G connectivity. When this happens, Tesla is no longer subsidizing the data. Their monthly bandwidth costs on a per car basis drop/disappear, but the bandwidth charges from their servers to the internet remain the same.

You are assuming Tesla will charge enough for all customers to surf the internet, use map guidance....etc and download every single update over 3G and for the cost to be covered. Tesla is likely going to price things were they depend on most people to download the updates over wifi (or figure out some way to encourage that like getting the updates sooner) and still make a profit.

There are likely some coffee shops in your area where you could pull up next to and connect to their wifi in a pinch.

 

[wdimagineer]

You are assuming Tesla will charge enough for all customers to surf the internet, use map guidance....etc and download every single update over 3G and for the cost to be covered. Tesla is likely going to price things were they depend on most people to download the updates over wifi (or figure out some way to encourage that like getting the updates sooner) and still make a profit.

There are likely some coffee shops in your area where you could pull up next to and connect to their wifi in a pinch.

This is exactly what they need to do. But probably won't.

I'm curious to see what the connectivity packages cost. It's my understanding you purchase it through Tesla. I guarantee it's going to be marked up.

 

[dsm363]

I'm curious to see what the connectivity packages cost. It's my understanding you purchase it through Tesla. I guarantee it's going to be marked up.

That's a given. I don't think Tesla will pass up an opportunity to make a profit off of the plan. It sounds like tethering will be an option so if you already have data, an maybe do that.

 

[Edgewood Dome]

I believe the cost of Updates is to be included in the Service plans. So if in the future you don't opt for a connectivity package, you might lose the Updates. From the Service Page: Tesla Service includes everything needed to keep your Model S in great condition. System monitoring is always on alert and software updates keep your car up-to-date with new features even after you've taken delivery.

 

[NigelM]

I guess my concern is that both at home and at work I get little to no 3G coverage in my parking garages. My commute isn't that lengthy, and certainly wouldn't be long enough to download an update package. So when would it download?

Trying to understand....you have no WiFi anywhere at all near the car, not even at your local Starbucks, no 3G signal in your garage at home or work, the commute is too short to download an update and you can't tether to your phone......:frown:

Do you ever drive anywhere other than the short hop of home to work and back? Have you had any updates at all yet?

 

[wdimagineer]

Trying to understand....you have no WiFi anywhere at all near the car, not even at your local Starbucks, no 3G signal in your garage at home or work, the commute is too short to download an update and you can't tether to your phone......:frown:

Do you ever drive anywhere other than the short hop of home to work and back? Have you had any updates at all yet?

I can make WiFi available, but I shouldn't have to in order to get updates sooner rather than later. And no sense in sitting at a Starbucks, because there's no guarantee an update will download during the time.

There needs to be a manual update check, and if someone pays for 3G through a Tesla connectivity package, it should negate the need to use WiFi to get updates sooner.

 

[NigelM]

Talking to Service and Engineering today, they actually already do this. There are certain cars that are prioritized for updates over others. This gets the update in the field, on real metal, so they can test and gather feedback ahead of a larger rollout. I'm apparently now on this list.

Thats really dumb if you can't download the updates.