FSD v12.x (end to end AI)

[EVNow]

Anyway the point is that for safety it is important to stop in a place that affords proper visibility of pedestrians and the intersection and does not confuse other drivers.

Just do that.

I think it is situation dependent. For eg. It is much better to stop far from the line if a car is going to turn in front of you (from your right). Lets them cross the yellow line esp. on small roads. I don’t think there is really a one size fits all here. It is likely NN hasn’t yet learnt the nuance of the best place to stop - it is probably applying wrong rules based on wrong scene assumptions.

In terms of “thumb rules” that are taught by driving instructors - they are just thumb rules and help new drivers (and potentially commercial drivers) avoid problems. Here ease of learning and following the rule is important than the statistical or scientific accuracy.

 

[Dewg]

The law also requires that you stop at the line. If a motorcycle is stopped in front of you at the line you don’t get a free pass to just roll though the stop line! Then remove the motorcycle. There’s a reason for the law requiring this!!!

Hmmm.... The law also requires many other things including not speeding, but we all know your thoughts on which laws you obey and which you ignore.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Hmmm.... The law also requires many other things including not speeding, but we all know your thoughts on which laws you obey and which you ignore.

I believe in most cases that going the speed of traffic is the most safe approach. Oftentimes this is slightly over the limit, which may or may not be a legal speed limit.

Anyway I think it would be good for FSD to attempt to follow the law. If the supervisor wants to actively do otherwise that should require input or instructions from the supervisor.

 

[Dewg]

I believe in most cases that going the speed of traffic is the most safe approach. Oftentimes this is slightly over the limit, which may or may not be a legal speed limit.

Anyway I think it would be good for FSD to attempt to follow the law. If the supervisor wants to actively do otherwise that should require input or instructions.

Glad you admit to driving illegally when you deem it best for you and others around you. Nothing wrong with admitting you break the law. . I'm sure a police officer, if questioned, would absolutely agree that speeding when everyone else is doing so is correct and legal.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Glad you admit to driving illegally when you deem it best for you and others around you. Nothing wrong with admitting you break the law. . I'm sure a police officer, if questioned, would absolutely agree that speeding when everyone else is doing so is correct and legal.

Again, this is about what FSD does, not how I drive.

And I am not admitting to driving illegally, to be clear, and I did not do so above. But that is irrelevant. We’re talking about the behavior of FSD v12.

I’d like to not have to (on occasion) disengage at intersections in order to comply with the law.

 

[Eugene Ash]

First ride on FSD 12.3.6 on model S. It is more decisive in taking right turns at red intersection. I have it on chill, but it drives faster than I would. In particular getting up to speed limit, right before a fully packed and stopped red light intersection. I would just go slower and break earlier for that.
I always was wondering about whether it is too close to curb, and today I found out, that yes. The right sidewalls touched it on both front and back, but not close enough for rim damage. My model S is not USS equipped and is HW4.
The curve is smooth and is typically 40-50mph downhill right turn. I think the curb was too much smoothed for the occupancy network, and the car had no reason to hug it.
The tire sidewall touch was audible but subtle enough that FSD did not disengage. This would have been much worse if I had standard [wider] tires and rims as they are an inch wider at the back...

With 12.3.4 I had no such experience, and this incident seems like a regression.

 

[Dewg]

Again, this is about what FSD does, not how I drive.

And I am not admitting to driving illegally, to be clear, and I did not do so above. But that is irrelevant. We’re talking about the behavior of FSD v12.

I’d like to not have to (on occasion) disengage at intersections in order to comply with the law.

So to be clear before I once again call my local police station, and local DMV, you're concerned that stopping 6-8 feet from a stop line (or crosswalk at an intersection) is illegal.

Or do you think it's legal, but just not appropriate and can cause safety issues?

 

[gottagofast]

So to be clear before I once again call my local police station, and local DMV, you're concerned that stopping 6-8 feet from a stop line (or crosswalk at an intersection) is illegal.

Or do you think it's legal, but just not appropriate and can cause safety issues?

I don’t know how the car can see what’s coming if it’s 6 feet from the stop sign

When I drive I’m equal with the stop sign and the nose of my car is like 1-2 feet from the road

 

[Daniel in SD]

So to be clear before I once again call my local police station, and local DMV, you're concerned that stopping 6-8 feet from a stop line (or crosswalk at an intersection) is illegal.

Or do you think it's legal, but just not appropriate and can cause safety issues?

It is illegal to stop too far back in California. Defendant convicted for stopping 10 feet back.

https://caselaw.findlaw.com/court/ca-superior-court/1712024.html

 

[aronth5]

Good to see you have come around after the initial disagreement!

I have no idea what you're referring to but that is ok. What makes some creeps extra long are low visibility intersections where FSD has to creep even further for the B-pillar cameras to see. And I have a lot of low visibility intersections where I live

 

[aronth5]

I have to take annual, professional driver training as part of my profession. We are specifically taught to stop before the white line becomes occluded by the front of the vehicle. It’s been beaten into my head this way for the past 20+ years of courses. There’s probably some truth to your hypothesis, assuming it’s mostly only professionally trained drivers coming to a full stop, and that’s the training data they have.

Are you assuming there is a white line since many intersections where I drive don't have any lines? These are the intersections where creeping is especially long since FSD seems to flip a coin to see where to initially stop but it's always too far back.

 

[primedive]

Now that my trial has ended, here’s what I’m hoping for in a future FSD:

1) Not knowing when the thing is going to change lanes is very stressful. Most of the other FSD behaviors don’t bother me that much as I can always just take over, but I find this alone is reason enough to just drive manually in the city and stick to autosteer on the highway. I want more control over lane changes.
2) Pothole avoidance, please, or failing that, steering without immediate disengagement. This is tricky because some are hard to spot and you often have to cross lines to move around them. Some of these potholes are tire destroyers and might go months without being fixed. Other issues are sunken sewer plates and things like that that will never be fixed, and must be avoided all the time.
3) Dry wipes and annoying beeping when it’s cloudy. Come on, really?

I’ll keep the list short since we’ve all experienced similar issues. I don’t think auto max can be easily fixed as it goes way too fast in residential zones, but in other places you might want to go that fast. I’ll stick to manual speed offsets. I hate the stop behavior but I know they’re being forced to do that. I always override with the accelerator.

Looking forward to 12.4!

 

[Aeromir]

First drive on 12.3.6, still doesn't care at all about the max speed I set, always goes way under the speed limit. Missing V11 a little more every day.

 

[hobertg]

I finally got 12.3.6 downloading tonight...I think I am one of the very last ones after getting 12.3.5 two days ago. Seems like all the feedback is not much improvement anyway with these minor updates, so really looking forward to 12.4/12.5 and actual smart summon....oh yea and OS 12 in the spring update. Hoping for the best that the training is really improved in the major updates...again, two steps forward one step back with this new architecture...but I am staying optimistic!

 

[rlsd]

I feel very comfortable with the way FSD stops at the intersection.

1. If there is pedestrian crosswalk, my car stops at 4-6 feet from the line and I can see half of the crosswalk from my car.
If the car stops close to the line I don't see the crosswalk. This means I don't see a child or a dog walking in front of me.
When I walk through a pedestrian crosswalk, I usually worry that the stopping cars may hit me.

I notice that about 30% of other cars stop the same way like my car.

2. When there is no pedestrian crosswalk, my car stops 1-2 feet from the line.

When I drove my old gas car, I usually avoided to stop close to the line when waiting to make left turn at an intersection of a freeway and a big street in my area. Both the drivers making left turn from freeway to my street and I felt very uncomfortable: their cars would hit my car.

 

[SpaceNuts]

I had 12.3.6 for about 2 days now, on two cars, a model S and a model Y. Both comes from 12.3.4. I took 4 trips, about 1.5 hours each trip, about 30 min city and 1 hour highway.

I feel .6 has minor improvement over .4. v12 is major improvement over v11. Ever since I am on 12, I don't remember I had a safety disengagement. I still have some interventions. But I feel the number of interventions and (nonsafety) disengagements had been cut down by half from the earliest 12 version to 12.3.6.

But it is still a long way from robotaxis. I doubt .4 or .5 can get us to robotaxis.

 

[Ben W]

The team responsible for turning FSDS off got fired.

The team responsible for sacking those who were to ensure that FSD was sacked, have been sacked.

 

[stopcrazypp]

It is illegal to stop too far back in California. Defendant convicted for stopping 10 feet back.

https://caselaw.findlaw.com/court/ca-superior-court/1712024.html

Reading the case, where the defendant was had no limit line. Thus the controlling statement is what is mean by "before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection". The specific place where he stopped had bushes obscuring the view. Defendant stopped where there was no way for him to properly see cross traffic or pedestrians, which is why he was still determined as guilty. The gist I got was that if instead there was a limit line then the case may have been different or if there wasn't bushes blocking the way.

 

[Daniel in SD]

Reading the case, where the defendant was had no limit line. Thus the controlling statement is what is mean by "before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection". The specific place where he stopped had bushes obscuring the view. Defendant stopped where there was no way for him to properly see cross traffic or pedestrians, which is why he was still determined as guilty. The gist I got was that if instead there was a limit line then the case may have been different or if there wasn't bushes blocking the way.

How would the case be different if there was a limit line?
The complaint is that FSD stops too far back to properly see traffic!

 

[stopcrazypp]

How would the case be different if there was a limit line?

If there was a limit line and it was behind the bushes, the law would have been satisfied even if the car couldn't properly see traffic. But because there was no limit line and the defendant stopped at the stop sign and stop lettering, the second part of the law became controlling.

The complaint is that FSD stops too far back to properly see traffic!

The complaint on FSD is it doesn't stop at the limit line, but rather with it visible to the vehicle camera (which is about 2-3 feet back), which is inclusive of scenarios when there is clear visibility to traffic even stopping 2-3 feet back.

My understanding is that FSD creeps forward anyways if there are any visibility issues (for example in the above scenario if the limit line was where bushes would obscure the intersection, it would stop 2-3 feet to the limit line and then do a very slow creep until the intersection was visible).

I'm not sure that case law would be evidence that the actions of FSD would be deemed illegal. The limit line makes a big difference here.