FSD v12.x (end to end AI)

[AlanSubie4Life]

They didn't fix speed? Son of a ....
The only thing we all agreed about...

No, they absolutely did not. As I said:
1) In ASSO mode, maybe it goes faster? (It's so hard to tell, because this is basically a random walk anyway.) It certainly does not keep up with traffic that is going 5-10mph over the limit as is the custom (we have a 45mph unenforceable (it's literally unenforceable due to California Speed Trap law) limit and it is legal to go 55mph, or whatever you want as long as it is not reckless, which is what everyone does since that's the reasonable speed for the road - it just stuck to 45mph in the fast lane as a car cruised past in the slow lane at 50mph (I had to turn left soon so didn't change lanes)).

******
2) The key thing is that with ASSO mode off: It will NOT go at your desired set speed (unless it decides it wants to, meaning that set speed is equal to or lower than its desired speed). That's really all anyone cares about, of course.
******

 

[MP3Mike]

My ~13 mile drive on FSD 1.3.3 in Assertive:

Only two braking events, but 5 acceleration events.

Automax speed control is not too slow anymore, now it goes too fast. Only one logged "speeding" event, 9+ MPH over, but it was riding that limit a lot.

My only disengagements were to report that the turn signals were too early. One intervention to make it go while turning left against opposing traffic that was also turning left.

The problem with the turn signals being used too early is that they come on 50-100 feet before the possible turn prior to the actual turn. As a result, someone on that road that is going to turn right on to the road I'm on might see that and think it is clear for them to go. So, it is a safety issue that they need to resolve.

One "human" behavior I haven't seen before: when the light turned green for a left turn, the person in front didn't start moving, after a second it started moving slowly toward the lead car until they started going.

Things that need to be fixed:

• Signaling too early.
• AutoMax going too fast. (Even if it is just keeping up with traffic. It shouldn't go 10+ MPH over the speed limit.)
• Too aggressive acceleration.
• Re-enable the lane change notifications (or fix Joe mode so it isn't too quiet)

Unknown if it fixes the "panic" stops for yellow lights that I had on 12.3, as I didn't have any yellow lights on this trip.

 

[JHCCAZ]

They didn't fix speed? Son of a ....
The only thing we all agreed about...

Apparently Chuck thinks so:

Chuck says speed control is better on 12.3.3 View attachment 1034054

 

[FSDtester#1]

My ~13 mile drive on FSD 1.3.3 in Assertive:

View attachment 1034107

Only two braking events, but 5 acceleration events.

Automax speed control is not too slow anymore, now it goes too fast. Only one logged "speeding" event, 9+ MPH over, but it was riding that limit a lot.

My only disengagements were to report that the turn signals were too early. One intervention to make it go while turning left against opposing traffic that was also turning left.

The problem with the turn signals being used too early is that they come on 50-100 feet before the possible turn prior to the actual turn. As a result, someone on that road that is going to turn right on to the road I'm on might see that and think it is clear for them to go. So, it is a safety issue that they need to resolve.

Things that need to be fixed:

• Signaling too early.
• AutoMax going too fast. (Even if it is just keeping up with traffic. It shouldn't go 10+ MPH over the speed limit.)
• Too aggressive acceleration.
• Re-enable the lane change notifications (or fix Joe mode so it isn't too quiet)

Unknown if it fixes the "panic" stops for yellow lights that I had on 12.3, as I didn't have any yellow lights on this trip.

Wait, you saying too fast, Alan says too slow....
What is going on???

 

[MP3Mike]

No, they absolutely did not. As I said:
1) In ASSO mode, maybe it goes faster? (It's so hard to tell, because this is basically a random walk anyway.). It certainly does not keep up with traffic that is going 5-10mph over the limit as is the custom (we have a 45mph unenforceable (it's literally unenforceable due to California Speed Trap law) limit and it is legal to go 55mph, or whatever you want as long as it is not reckless).

They absolutely fixed the problem with it going too slow, at least for me. Now it goes too fast, even if it is just keeping up with traffic. (For example, going 42 in 30 zone or 46 in a 35 MPH zone)

 

[FSDtester#1]

They absolutely fixed the problem with it going too slow, at least for me. Now it goes too fast, even if it is just keeping up with traffic. (For example, going 42 in 30 zone or 46 in a 35 MPH zone)

Thanks for the clarification.

Alan, like you said, your car is OLD

Might be where some of the disconnects are occurring...

Just thought of something Alan, did you make the mistake of naming your car Christine?

I hope your old enough get that reference

 

[tmoz]

Ok - my car finally finished updating but I have to get up for work in the morning so I’m going to wait until tomorrow to take my first drive.

Will you even be able to sleep knowing the update is there waiting for you to take it for a ride? Pleasant dreams.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

AutoMax going too fast. (Even if it is just keeping up with traffic. It shouldn't go 10+ MPH over the speed limit.)

Automax speed control is not too slow anymore, now it goes too fast. Only one logged "speeding" event, 9+ MPH over, but it was riding that limit a lot.

Wait, you saying too fast, Alan says too slow....
What is going on???

This is all 100% consistent.

Again: AutoMax automatically has a 50% over the limit set speed. There are a lot of reasons why AutoMax could speed. In my scenario, it did not - it knew the limits, decided on its speed, and it was consistently slow. Entering a 25mph from a 35 mph, it briefly was speeding by 6-8mph because it was going 33-35mph in the 35mph. This was of course temporary.

But again, ASSO mode Automax CAN speed. It just has to decide it wants to, by determining that speed (I imagine this often happens if it has the wrong speed chosen or detected for a given road).

However, this does NOT mean it is ok. Because what people care about is if the car will go at the speed they set.

That is still not the case. The car goes at the speed it decides to go.

It's 100% consistent - @MP3Mike and I are observing the same thing - not surprisingly since we have the same software!!!

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Alan, like you said, your car is OLD

Might be where some of the disconnects are occurring...

No that's not it.

Again, the car will not go at the speed you set it to go at, unless it decides to do so. It will not go to ASSO's (hidden +50%) set speed, nor will it go at the Manual Set speed offset (when ASSO mode is disabled), unless it decides to.

Again, the key is whether or not the car goes at your desired speed, consistently. People are going to find that it does not.

This does not preclude the car speeding, or going too fast (but this problem is easily fixed - just use manual mode and your desired offset - unfortunately this does not fix the main problem).


This isn't that complicated, guys.

 

[FSDtester#1]

This is all 100% consistent.

Again: AutoMax automatically has a 50% over the limit set speed. There are a lot of reasons why AutoMax could speed. In my scenario, it did not - it knew the limits, decided on its speed, and it was consistently slow. Entering a 25mph from a 35 mph, it briefly was speeding by 6-8mph because it was going 33mph in the 35mph. Was this was of course temporary.

But again, ASSO mode Automax CAN speed. It just has to decide it wants to, by determining that speed (I imagine this often happens if it has the wrong speed chosen or detected for a given road).

However, this does NOT mean it is ok. Because what people care about is if the car will go at the speed they set.

That is still not the case. The car goes at the speed it decides to go.

It's 100% consistent - @MP3Mike and I are observing the same thing - not surprisingly since we have the same software!!!

Answer the question, is your car named Christine????

 

[MP3Mike]

It's 100% consistent - @MP3Mike and I are observing the same thing - not surprisingly since we have the same software!!!

How can we be experiencing the same thing? At no point in my trip did I think it was going too slow. Or do you think 11-12MPH over the speed limit, for more than a mile, both times, is too slow?

This does not preclude the car speeding, or going too fast (but this problem is easily fixed - just use manual mode and your desired offset - unfortunately this does not fix the main problem).

That isn't really an option since NHTSA took away the fixed offset feature, and the percentage offset will never be what I actually want. (Which is 9 MPH over the speed limit.)

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

They absolutely fixed the problem with it going too slow, at least for me. Now it goes too fast, even if it is just keeping up with traffic. (For example, going 42 in 30 zone or 46 in a 35 MPH zone)

Again, this is 100% consistent with what I'm saying.

I can only observe what I'm seeing. I completely believe that in some situations it may go faster than it did before (I said so in my original message - I just didn't know).

But the key issue is whether it fixes the ability to go at the desired set speed - which it does not.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

How can we be experiencing the same thing? At no point in my trip did I think it was going too slow. Or do you think 11-12MPH over the speed limit, for more than a mile, is too slow?

I think I've made myself clear. It's no surprise to me that you would observe the car going too fast at some points in time. It's definitely possible.

But that's not the core issue.

 

[Joboo7777]

Just took 12.3.3 for test drive. Auto max speed is much better than 12.3.2.1.. Only drove 20 mins or so but can tell there was a significant improvement.

The laundry list of issues is definitely getting smaller and smaller. The biggest issue I have now is sometimes when turning the car doesn’t properly select the right lane or drives in a dead space area Like the highlighted area in the picture below. This intersection was recently widened so maybe it has to do with that?

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

How can we be experiencing the same thing? At no point in my trip did I think it was going too slow. Or do you think 11-12MPH over the speed limit, for more than a mile, is too slow?

The question is simple:

You use a +23% offset for your speed.

When you turn OFF ASSO mode, will the car consistently respect that desired speed?

That's the core issue, which is unresolved.

Everything else is just randomness, and if they slightly biased up the ASSO speed (maybe they did? I have no idea as I said, with 10-15min of driving it is hard to say), then that would help at the margins, but it doesn't fix the main issue.

Remember, Manual mode is identical to ASSO mode (AFAICT). It just makes the cap value visible (and generally lower).

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

That isn't really an option since NHTSA took away the fixed offset feature, and the percentage offset will never be what I actually want. (Which is 9 MPH over the speed limit.)

Percentage offset is workable, as long as you don't mind dialing occasionally. Obviously there are issues with that too. I think you'll find from reading comments here in future from people that people would like the car to go at the speed they dial in (yes there are issues with this too, since when you get a new speed it may slow down again - hence the % offset which generally keeps things "about right").

Currently it does not do that (unless the speed happens to be lower than what the car wants, in which case it will respect it).

% offset works fine for me. Less fine on residential streets of course, but I'll typically be driving myself there.

 

[FSDtester#1]

The question is simple:

You use a +23% offset for your speed.

When you turn OFF ASSO mode, will the car consistently respect that desired speed?

That's the core issue, which is unresolved.

Everything else is just randomness, and if they slightly biased up the ASSO speed (maybe they did? I have no idea as I said, with 10-15min of driving it is hard to say), then that would help at the margins, but it doesn't fix the main issue.

Remember, Manual mode is identical to ASSO mode (AFAICT). It just makes the cap value visible (and generally lower).

Mike's been around the block a few times. I think your outgunned here.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Mike's been around the block a few times. I think your outgunned here.

You let me know if the car goes at your desired set speed, and get back to me. (Using manual mode, of course.)

If you typically drive at or under the speed limit, you'll probably be fine (but YMMV).

Note that @MP3Mike and I do not disagree, or at least I haven't seen him disagree with me yet. He disagreed with a post, but I think (obviously not sure, can't read his mind) that is because he thought I was mischaracterizing what he said or disagreed that we're seeing the same thing. But factually I am saying I 100% agree with his observations, and I agree we're likely seeing exactly the same thing.

Nowhere did I say that ASSO mode wouldn't speed! It absolutely can. I haven't seen it for any appreciable length of time, but it definitely could happen for very specific reasons.

 

[JHCCAZ]

But the key issue is whether it fixes the ability to go at the desired set speed - which it does not.

Not sure what you're getting at here. As you yourself have explained many times, there is really no "set" speed anymore unless you take it out of Auto Offset and apply a cap speed according to the options available.

If you don't, the effective cap speed is very high and the car should rarely, if ever, actually go that fast.

The most popular complaint has been that 12.3.x chose to drive at a slower speed than most people would prefer, often but not always.

Now we are getting credible reports that 12.3.3 behaves better in this respect, i.e. it is less likely to bias its speed choices on the low side.

And while writing this, just see yet another comment that the too slow Auto speed control issue is improved. (We have an atypical rainy day and I'm going to wait until tomorrow to test for myself)

You seem to have made up your mind that 12.3.3 has no behavioral changes, and you're sticking with that despite mounting evidence. And no, I'm not confused about how the speed control works, neither do I think Chuck or @MP3Mike or @Joboo7777 reports are based on said confusion.

I tried Auto offset the first drive, I didn't like it going too fast sometimes, and I reverted to zero mph speed offset as a cap, with scroll wheel override when I want it. 12.3 would often drive too slow, often several mph and sometimes many mph under the speed limit = set cap speed. Other people are saying that's much better with 12.3.3 but you don't want to allow that it could be.

 

[lzolman]

20-minute drive with 12.3.3 to and past my funky intersection and back.

First impressive thing was just turning right out of my driveway onto the narrow backroad I live on. There's a blind curve to the left, so our human protocol is "look left, right, left, GO!" but Nameless just marched right into and through that beautifully. At first I thought "Was that safe?" until I realized that Nameless does in fact have eyes at the back of his head (and sides) so that was totally appropriate. 12.3 still took that turn very tentatively.

And that's about all the good news I have, alas. 12.3.3 miserably failed my funky intersection. It needed to go "straight" but put on the left signal. This time I did not cancel it, I just let it do its thing to see what that would be. It started as if to turn left, the signal went off, and it proceeded to drive in the correct direction across the highway...except straight into the oncoming lane. Yikes! I've never seen any version do that, but then, I have only really been letting them try (more than once each) since V12.

So I got into my own lane and just turned around to come back through the other way. Again it stopped too far short of the intersection to set off the sensor, so I had to "go" it. Then, at the point it needed to go straight and follow the road doing a sharp right up the hill, it first tried to drive into the wall to the right of the road, corrected at the last second and snuck around the wall onto the road and up the hill. I was getting a bit worried about those passenger-side rims, even with my AlloyGators. The rest of the drive was fine.

Speed control: I never had any trouble on this stretch and continued not to have any tonight. Speed was 42 in a 35, perfect. More testing needed before I can get a better feel on that.

It's probably too much to expect it to somehow learn my funky intersection, right? Or where my driveway is and how to turn into it? Those would be a treat. Some day...