FSD v12.x (end to end AI)

[primedive]

B-Pillar Feedback- I stand corrected (partially)

V12 has done one thing I didn't expect. FSD has solved my obstructed view intersections. And for that I admit I was partially wrong (but not totally).
FSD now creeps, more accurately inches out, and eventually makes a safe decision to go. It's very clear that FSD is now smart enough to know how far it has to creep to make a go/no go decision. Amazing really. Previously FSD frequently made decisions that were dangerous and I often had to disengage. It got to a point I stopped using FSD at the obstructed view intersections.

All good right? Well not really. Sometimes the creeps are so far into the road traffic is forced to cross over into the other lane and on one occasion cars had to stop. These are secondary roads with no shoulders and typically cars are not going very fast. So are the turns safe? Yup, but without cameras closer to the front the root cause will never be addressed.

Later this week I will try and video the behavior showing how far the creep can be. (half way across the road)

Not really safe then. If someone is looking at their phone or is even distracted, that’s a side impact waiting to happen right into your door.

This sort of thing is a big problem where I live due to parked cars right up to the corner, but speeds are also under 25mph. Just gotta go slow, lean forward, and sometimes look through the parked car windows to see through to the other side. Of course too many people just go flying right through while barely slowing down for their stop, so maybe FSD is still an improvement in that regard.

 

[TK211X]

Fi Popped

 

[sleepydoc]

So you didn't read tesla.com link I posted that says FSD Beta is a SAE level 2 driver assist program?

Update Vehicle Firmware to Improve Certain FSD Beta Driving Operations | Tesla Support

Tesla has issued a voluntary recall on certain Model S, Model 3, Model X and Model Y vehicles that have installed or pending installation of software that contains the Full Self-Driving (FSD) Beta feature. This recall affects only US and CA vehicles. Affected vehicles were identified based on...

www.tesla.com

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You are some kinda obtusy.

https://www.tesla.com/support/vehicle-firmware-prevent-autosteer-misuse

View attachment 1032756


View attachment 1032758

would you guys quit it with the facts already?

 

[mgs333]

View attachment 1032817

Fi Popped

100% to cars on 2024.2.7 (as expected) and seems like all states. I don't like being stuck on 12.3 while people are going straight from 11.4.9 to 12.3.2.1.

My head is spinning and I can't keep track of all the new releases with and without Autopark and 12.3 vs 12.3.1 vs 12.3.2 vs 12.3.2.1.

 

[swedge]

But but but... It's right there in the name!!!

Full
adjective
1.
containing or holding as much or as many as possible; having no empty space.
"wastebaskets full of rubbish"

2.
not lacking or omitting anything; complete.
"fill in your full name below"

Self
noun
a person's essential being that distinguishes them from others, especially considered as the object of introspection or reflexive action.

Driving
noun
the control and operation of a motor vehicle.

[steps back to watch the chaos unfold]

Would you make the same point about "Grape Nuts" cereal, which contains neither grapes nor nuts?

I think FSD is ambiguous. It does control speed, direction and generally avoids running into things. Fully driving, by definition, even if not by liability case law. On the other hand, FSD is not fully autonomous driving because supervision is required. So far, anyway.

It will be nice if/when the nagging stops. But then even as a passenger with a friend driving, I'm paying attention anyway.

Calif. DMV, I think, filed a complaint that FSD was false advertising. I expect Tesla's argument will be that it is demonstrably safer to have and use than to not have it, so stopping the supposed fraud would stop deceiving people into being safer. Decreasing safety is not the sort of action the DMV is supposed to take, especially when we consider that most accidents involve innocent people as well as those at fault.

Those of us on V12 volunteered to help Tesla develop FSD, the testers. Folks with 2024 versions also have FSD available, but were not among the testers.

FSD is just a marketing name for a set of features, and this TMC thread is largely about helping get it working by noticing and reporting when it doesn't quite work yet. Semantic arguments are a distraction. To plagiarize The Bard, FSD, by any other name .... .

 

[sleepydoc]

Poor engineers are probably working around the clock trying to get a stable/safe version FAST to cover Elon's "toilet Tweet".

hopefully they know how to construct a MAYBE gate from NAND gates!

 

[sleepydoc]

If someone is looking at their phone or is even distracted, that’s a side impact waiting to happen right into your door.

If someone is looking at their phone, distracted while driving they deserve a side impact. Or at least a good side dope-slap.

 

[swedge]

hopefully they know how to construct a MAYBE gate from NAND gates!

Isn't that what Neural Networks do? ;-)

 

[Ramphex]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1773119977853165609

Feeling a lot like when they kept releasing Holiday Update builds almost daily for bug fixes

Top one…. Is rolling out.
12.3.2.1 is seeping out, if that.

I think it’s time we start to use the appropriate verbs for releases to avoid over-hyping the situation.

 

[AndrewZ]

Tesla was already sued over FSD's naming years ago in Europe and needed to modify a bunch of the wording on the order page and in advertisements, though the Cali DMV is likely going a step further because those modifications have also existed on the US site since those changes were made in Europe.

If you go by what Tesla told the Cali DMV back in 2020, even a *final* release of FSD will still be Level 2.

 

[FOOLSLFDRVNG]

Tesla was already sued over FSD's naming years ago in Europe and needed to modify a bunch of the wording on the order page and in advertisements, though the Cali DMV is likely going a step further because those modifications have also existed on the US site since those changes were made in Europe.

If you go by what Tesla told the Cali DMV back in 2020, even a *final* release of FSD will still be Level 2.

But but but Elon said…

 

[Daniel in SD]

If you go by what Tesla told the Cali DMV back in 2020, even a *final* release of FSD will still be Level 2.

Final release of FSD “City Streets”.
For FSD itself they’ll be L5 when they get to 1-2 million miles per driver interaction (this is of course not how AV testing works).

 

[drtimhill]

What do you think they might want changed?
This is what’s so silly about the SAE level arguments in these threads. Nobody can even say why they think SAE levels are an impediment to achieving unsupervised FSD.

Indeed. My opinion is that Tesla will ignore the SAE standards and simply define stuff as it wants .. pretty much the way they demolished CCS by presenting NACS as a fait accompli.

 

[jabloomf1230]

Indeed. My opinion is that Tesla will ignore the SAE standards and simply define stuff as it wants .. pretty much the way they demolished CCS by presenting NACS as a fait accompli.

My opinion is that all vehicle manufacturers will do the same.

 

[Knightshade]

Final release of FSD “City Streets”.
For FSD itself they’ll be L5 when they get to 1-2 million miles per driver interaction (this is of course not how AV testing works).

Apart from being hilariously far away from that level of interactions, there's the fact nothing in the SAE levels specifies any "If you have X number of interventions you are level 5" or anything remotely like that.

That's just a figure somebody at Tesla threw out because they knew they'd likely be retired by the time it was relevant to anything.

Indeed. My opinion is that Tesla will ignore the SAE standards and simply define stuff as it wants .. pretty much the way they demolished CCS by presenting NACS as a fait accompli.

Except all the actual laws specifically require respecting and adhering to the SAE standards.

So if they ever want to, legally, put an >L2 car on the road they can't do as you suggest.

(Or, I suppose, convince all the US states to change their laws.... GL with that given some still don't even allow Tesla to sell cars there at all)

 

[primedive]

If someone is looking at their phone, distracted while driving they deserve a side impact. Or at least a good side dope-slap.

But what I mean is the fsd driver creeping out is the one that’s going to get hit by the distracted driver…

 

[jabloomf1230]

Except all the actual laws specifically require respecting and adhering to the SAE standards.

So if they ever want to, legally, put an >L2 car on the road they can't do as you suggest.

(Or, I suppose, convince all the US states to change their laws.... GL with that given some still don't even allow Tesla to sell cars there at all)

Unless the entire SAE standard language is embedded in a law, the law would be challenged as being "incorporation by reference". The reason this type of reference is not allowed is that SAE, as a private organization, could change their standards to something nonsensical.

 

[phxazcraig]

But what I mean is the fsd driver creeping out is the one that’s going to get hit by the distracted driver…

I do wonder what a Tesla would do, if anything, when it sensed a car about to t-bone it. Would it someday jam into reverse or pull forward, assuming it could do that without hitting another vehicle?

 

[primedive]

Completely agree. The 5 mph limit on TACC is ridiculous, but at least FSD would respect whatever speed I set previously. Now, it goes whatever speed it wants to go, and that's typically either the speed limit, or within 3 mph of the speed limit. Often times, it'll go several mph under the speed limit for no apparent reason. In my neighborhood, it likes to go around 15, even though the limit is 25. Paying $12k for the current functionality is really pissing me off. Simple things like this speed limit issue should not be happening.

When did this 5 mph limit come into play? The freeways here are posted at 45mph but even cops often go over 60mph (of course, if you do, have to be careful as the tickets start getting expensive). This would make TACC unusable. I haven’t noticed this restriction here.

Conversely, I kind of like FSD going slow in neighbourhoods. It’s context dependent of course, but 25mph is too fast when you have kids riding bikes or playing near the street. 15mph is a lot safer for them.

 

[Supcom]

Unless the entire SAE standard language is embedded in a law, the law would be challenged as being "incorporation by reference". The reason this type of reference is not allowed is that SAE, as a private organization, could change their standards to something nonsensical.

The specific version of the spec would normally be called out. Then no future changes are relevant without revising the law.

Sort of how the National Electric Code is required without embedding that document into laws/ordinances.