FSD v12.x (end to end AI)

[KArnold]

If you have no interior camera, it's incredibly easy to get a strike.

True. But at least in the TeslaFi sample set, all recipients thus far are of the interior camera variety. It's very likely this driver's lack of experience with alpha software was a significant factor.

But still it's an FSD bug that needs correction.

 

[lzolman]

Just drive through about two miles of inactive construction zones with both hands on the wheel, and pay attention to the road like you're supposed to instead of noticing the flashing on your dashboard until it starts beeping at you, then do that two or three more times close enough together before leaving the construction zone. Boom. Instant strike.

Now why would anyone in their right mind remain engaged after the first round of that cycle?

 

[MP3Mike]

Here is the description provided for the V12 release delays by Tesla Scope:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1764599100752933238

 

[JB47394]

Here is the description provided for the V12 release delays by Tesla Scope:

This is a surprisingly-strong reaction to someone not monitoring the software. We've seen much more dangerous acts from V11, but people always seem to take over in time. Have we reached that uncomfortable point where the system is good enough to lull the operator into confidence while not being good enough to meet the resulting expectations?

Or is it just that rolling out experimental software to random users is a dumb idea?

 

[SidetrackedSue]

Now why would anyone in their right mind remain engaged after the first round of that cycle?

Mine experience learning not to trust AP (not FSDb) came in June 2022.

No "strike" warnings came because I was on TACC not FSD and this was pre-even FSD using the cabin camera. I was wanting to steer the car (therefore 2 hands on wheel, eyes ahead, with mirror checks showing the growing line of traffic behind me.) I was on TACC to maintain speed since it was an 80kph construction zone but narrow and I was happy to do the steering (didn't trust FSD) and let the car do the speed since I have a tendency to slow down in those situations and didn't want to anger the folks behind me too much.

At one of my glancing around, I spotted the speed on the screen which was much lower than I had set it and explained why the cars I had been following in front of me were now long gone and I was the lead car.

That's when I learned TACC didn't just slow down when there was a car in front. It would slow down when it decided the speed was too high for the lanes (and in this case it was temporary markings, narrow, and jersey barriers and cones.)

It was safe to go the 80kph, otherwise the highway department would have set it lower. But the car overrode both them and me and wouldn't do what I asked, which was solely to maintain speed.

Which meant I then had to do all the effin driving with no assistance at all from the car. Which was the norm for a lot of the 1700km trip because of weather at other times (this was cloudy but dry conditions so I expected the car to at least work then like my 8 years older Prius would have.)

That one trip solidified my hate for the car. Previous annoyances were minor and adjusting my attitude might have solved those. But finding myself with a vehicle that had dodgy cruise control on top of not being willing to do the lane keeping I had bought the car for and the terrible NAV system (and since I had to do the driving I didn't have the option to play with the screen to figure out Where+WhyTF it planned out the route) and lack of reliable hands free phone connections (at least this would fail at the beginning of a drive so I learned to double check it was working before putting the vehicle in drive each time) and failure of the auto wipers to respond to rain before I was blinded, I was done. Ironically, the wipers have only got worse since 2022. And now the nags are worse, the TACC is worse, and (in my case cuz I have android) my hands free texting is effed (but thanks to TMC I at least have a solution I need to try for that issue.)

 

[zoomer0056]

That one trip solidified my hate for the car. Previous annoyances were minor and adjusting my attitude might have solved those.

Yup, I think attitude has a lot to do with how bad/good things appear. How one approaches events can exacerbate or relieve difficulties.

 

[rlsd]

V12 pissed me off yesterday. It missed the freeway exits or could not exit 3 times in a row although the navigation screen showed the next exit and the navigation voice announced the next exit. This is a new behavior. In the last two weeks it exited earlier. Now it skipped the exits. When it missed the exit from freeway 15 north to change to freeway 78 west, it announced to exit to the next exit but it missed it again. I manually exited and reversed the direction to let it exit to 78 west again but it still missed it. I had traveled on these 2 freeways dozen times and had no problems with v11.

May be this problem will be solved when both freeway stack and city street stack are merged to a single stack. Right now the transition between the 2 stacks is not good.

 

[powertoold]

V12 pissed me off yesterday. It missed the freeway exits or could not exit 3 times in a row although the navigation screen showed the next exit and the navigation voice announced the next exit. This is a new behavior. In the last two weeks it exited earlier. Now it skipped the exits. When it missed the exit from freeway 15 north to change to freeway 78 west, it announced to exit to the next exit but it missed it again. I manually exited and reversed the direction to let it exit to 78 west again but it still missed it. I had traveled on these 2 freeways dozen times and had no problems with v11.

May be this problem will be solved when both freeway stack and city street stack are merged to a single stack. Right now the transition between the 2 stacks is not good.

Yea, I do notice new highway behavior with 12.2.1. Others have also mentioned that 12.2.1 tends to miss more exits than 11.4.9.

As you said, it's still running on the V11 stack.

 

[zoomer0056]

It missed the freeway exits or could not exit 3 times in a row

How can this be explained?

 

[Todd Burch]

V12 pissed me off yesterday. It missed the freeway exits or could not exit 3 times in a row although the navigation screen showed the next exit and the navigation voice announced the next exit. This is a new behavior. In the last two weeks it exited earlier. Now it skipped the exits. When it missed the exit from freeway 15 north to change to freeway 78 west, it announced to exit to the next exit but it missed it again. I manually exited and reversed the direction to let it exit to 78 west again but it still missed it. I had traveled on these 2 freeways dozen times and had no problems with v11.

May be this problem will be solved when both freeway stack and city street stack are merged to a single stack. Right now the transition between the 2 stacks is not good.

When you see it's not going to make the exit, or it feels reasonably like it's not going to make it, just disengage. Otherwise the issue doesn't get to Tesla and they don't know about--and that way you don't get as pissed because you don't miss your exit!

 

[EVNow]

How many crashes have there been with 12.x so far? Is it just the parking lot one?

They will have to figure out the # of crashes if not for the interventions. With small # of participants, they should be able to analyze each intervention and classify.

We don't know what they do with the 11 data. Whether they classify all the millions of interventions daily ... they would need some automation. But for valid comparison between V11 and 12 they need to classify.

 

[powertoold]

This "influencer" has a HW3 Plaid and seems to enjoy 12.2.1. She used to be very harsh on FSD but seems to be bullish on 12.2.1:

https://twitter.com/MissJilianne

 

[EVNow]

This "influencer" has a HW3 Plaid and seems to enjoy 12.2.1. She used to be very harsh on FSD but seems to be bullish on 12.2.1:

https://twitter.com/MissJilianne

Definitely 12 looks better in some respects - purely going by YT (which we know is not very reliable). But not as safe ?

Except for roundabouts - I hardly ever have to disengage for safety reasons on V11 (infact don't remember the last time I did !). Admittedly my routes are easier with low traffic since I don't commute to work. So, when I get V12, looks like there might be some significant regressions too.

 

[powertoold]

So, when I get V12, looks like there might be some significant regressions too.

Most of the V12 regressions relate to:

1) Speed stuttering (very annoying)
2) Not following traffic speed (going slower or equal to speed limit)
3) Freezing at stop signs (happens consistently at the unprotected stop sign out of my block)

Most of the issues relate to annoyances after getting used to 11.4.9's consistent behavior

The more serious V12 regressions relate to:
1) Turning into pedestrians
2) Getting too close to lead cars, especially at an angle

 

[kabin]

V12.2.1 approaching a road closure (@6:30) results in an average deceleration of about 0.45g. Early to mid braking was likely higher g's. You can hear what sounds like an object crashing inside the vehicle. The wide angle lens isn't ideal but braking appears very late - the left turn lane entrance.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1764675473836323190

 

[powertoold]

V12.2.1 approaching a road closure (@6:30) results in an average deceleration of about 0.45g. Early to mid braking was likely higher g's. You can hear what sounds like an object crashing inside the vehicle. The wide angle lens isn't ideal but braking appears very late - the left turn lane entrance.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1764675473836323190

Well at least it's way better than it was before

Missjilliane commented in the video to say it was a rather abrupt stop but then again the road closure was abrupt as well, so she felt it wasn't horrible, given the circumstances

 

[Dewg]

V12.2.1 approaching a road closure (@6:30) results in an average deceleration of about 0.45g. Early to mid braking was likely higher g's. You can hear what sounds like an object crashing inside the vehicle. The wide angle lens isn't ideal but braking appears very late - the left turn lane entrance.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1764675473836323190

If navigation is heading into a construction zone, disengage and drive manually until you're past the construction zone, then re-engage. Why is this such a hard concept for people to get?

 

[EVNow]

If navigation is heading into a construction zone, disengage and drive manually until you're past the construction zone, then re-engage. Why is this such a hard concept for people to get?

Clicks.

 

[Tronguy]

This is a surprisingly-strong reaction to someone not monitoring the software. We've seen much more dangerous acts from V11, but people always seem to take over in time. Have we reached that uncomfortable point where the system is good enough to lull the operator into confidence while not being good enough to meet the resulting expectations?

Or is it just that rolling out experimental software to random users is a dumb idea?

As usual, I could be wrong on the below. But I don't think so.

Methinks FSD is moving, in V12, towards a truly non-Beta version. Meaning, "Mom and Pa Sixpack", and "It's Gotta Work". I suspect that Tesla (Musk, the developers, whoever) can smell that it's getting close, and they want that brass ring.

Versions of FSD-b that had that, "Car will do the wrong thing at the worst time" that came before; well, Tesla would unleash versions of FSD that could (and did) scare the pants off of Consumers Reports. But the general idea was that we-all with FSD-b were testers, first and foremost, providing feedback to the developers. Our interest was in moving the FSD-b development process along so, at some point, we could have a shiny FSD batch of software that didn't make mistakes.

As time has moved on and FSD-b has gotten better, the software's been released to a wider audience. The buttons and that phraseology about Wrong Things are still there, though, with, at least 11.4.9, good reason. Not to mention that there's the feedback being recorded every time a tester (and, yeah, we're all still testers) disengages autopilot.

So, what would it look like if Tesla thinks they can make it over the hump? Releases would slow down, so they really can fix the last dozen bugs. And that's where we may be at the moment.

Yeah, yeah, I know: The contingent to whom no FSD should ever be released, ever, are present and active on this thread, so I expect "Laughing" emojis in large quantities on this post. But I take this slowdown as a good sign. We'll see.

 

[rlsd]

When you see it's not going to make the exit, or it feels reasonably like it's not going to make it, just disengage. Otherwise the issue doesn't get to Tesla and they don't know about--and that way you don't get as pissed because you don't miss your exit!

I do most of the time. But there are situations I have to worry about my safety first then the opportunity to make bug report no longer exists.