FSD needs to learn how to read signs

One of the major problems I have had with FSD 12.3.6 is that is does not understand posted signage. Cases in point:
1. Traveling on "State Highway 35" in Wisconsin where the speed limit varies from 55MPH on open stretches to 40MPH around curves to 30MPH thru towns and as low as 20MPH in School Zones "When Children Are Present". So here we are on an open stretch traveling 55MPH when we pass a sign indicating that we are on State Hwy 35 - it's a black&white sign that does not resemble a speed limit sign but the car thinks it is the new speed limit and FSD all of a sudden decides to slow to 35 MPH at which point I either disengage or hit the accelerator to maintain 55MPH lest I get rear-ended. After several repeated instances of this behavior over a few miles, i decided to let it slow down and see if it figures out what the actual speed limit is. It seems that FSD notices the error and after about 5 seconds will, on its own, resume the posted speed. Thus, FSD and/or the car needs to understand exactly what kind of sign it is reading.
2. School Zones: FSD does not understand that it needs to own down in a school zone. This is a bit more complex task than just changing the speed of the car. My experience thru four different school zones is that FSD seems to ignore School Zone speed limits entirely and I had to disengage.
3. Speed Limit signs when going around sharp curves like Exit Ramps. For example, traveling 60MPH approaching a sharp curve that has signs posted to take the curve at 30MPH. FSD did not slow down and I had to disengage and took said curve at 42MPH. This has happened on multiple occasions so I rarely let FSD drive on roads with sharp curves (besides, I sound like my dad: "You're going too fast! Slow down!" And I'm 66 years old now)
4. Construction Zones: FSD sort of seems to know what a construction zone is but does not always seem to read or understand the "Construction Zone Speed Limit" signs -or- to resume the normal speed limit when it sees the "End Construction" sign.
5. Lane Indicator signs and perhaps road surface lane markings. Quite often the Navigation system seems to know which lane should be used in situations where there is, say, four lanes: a right turn only, a forward only, a forward-or-left, and a left turn only lane. FSD has often chosen the right-turn-only lane to go forward because there were cars in each of the lanes covering the lane markings. But there was a lane-indicator sign that FSD ignored. Again, FSD really needs to be able to read and understand all the various sorts of signs and put them into the immediate driving context.
6. Motoring down a freeway at 60MPH. Take an exit that, at the top of the ramp, has a single lane that simply continues onto the side street (there is no stop or yield sign and no merging with traffic on that road). There is a speed limit sign that reads "City-wide Speed Limit 25 unless otherwise posted". Then a few feet later there is a posted speed limit of 30MPH and FSD slows to 30MPH. A few feet after that, I have no idea why, FSD decides the speed limit is now 55MPH! Nope! I do not know what triggers this but it is repeatable. FSD should be more aware of what sort.of street it is on and take that context into consideration when it gets conflicting information.
7. This point isn't a posted sign issue but rather, the lack of a posted sign. Scenario: traveling on a road with a speed limit of 25MPH. Approaching an intersection where the only choice is to turn right onto the highway. Come to a stop sign, stop, turn right onto a highway that has a speed limit of 55MPH but that speed limit isn't posted when turning onto the highway so FSD creeps along at 25MPH on a 55MPH highway. FSD and/or the car Navigation system should know the speed limit for that highway.

 

[Rod3158@hotmai]

One of the major problems I have had with FSD 12.3.6 is that is does not understand posted signage. Cases in point:
1. Traveling on "State Highway 35" in Wisconsin where the speed limit varies from 55MPH on open stretches to 40MPH around curves to 30MPH thru towns and as low as 20MPH in School Zones "When Children Are Present". So here we are on an open stretch traveling 55MPH when we pass a sign indicating that we are on State Hwy 35 - it's a black&white sign that does not resemble a speed limit sign but the car thinks it is the new speed limit and FSD all of a sudden decides to slow to 35 MPH at which point I either disengage or hit the accelerator to maintain 55MPH lest I get rear-ended. After several repeated instances of this behavior over a few miles, i decided to let it slow down and see if it figures out what the actual speed limit is. It seems that FSD notices the error and after about 5 seconds will, on its own, resume the posted speed. Thus, FSD and/or the car needs to understand exactly what kind of sign it is reading.
2. School Zones: FSD does not understand that it needs to own down in a school zone. This is a bit more complex task than just changing the speed of the car. My experience thru four different school zones is that FSD seems to ignore School Zone speed limits entirely and I had to disengage.
3. Speed Limit signs when going around sharp curves like Exit Ramps. For example, traveling 60MPH approaching a sharp curve that has signs posted to take the curve at 30MPH. FSD did not slow down and I had to disengage and took said curve at 42MPH. This has happened on multiple occasions so I rarely let FSD drive on roads with sharp curves (besides, I sound like my dad: "You're going too fast! Slow down!" And I'm 66 years old now)
4. Construction Zones: FSD sort of seems to know what a construction zone is but does not always seem to read or understand the "Construction Zone Speed Limit" signs -or- to resume the normal speed limit when it sees the "End Construction" sign.
5. Lane Indicator signs and perhaps road surface lane markings. Quite often the Navigation system seems to know which lane should be used in situations where there is, say, four lanes: a right turn only, a forward only, a forward-or-left, and a left turn only lane. FSD has often chosen the right-turn-only lane to go forward because there were cars in each of the lanes covering the lane markings. But there was a lane-indicator sign that FSD ignored. Again, FSD really needs to be able to read and understand all the various sorts of signs and put them into the immediate driving context.
6. Motoring down a freeway at 60MPH. Take an exit that, at the top of the ramp, has a single lane that simply continues onto the side street (there is no stop or yield sign and no merging with traffic on that road). There is a speed limit sign that reads "City-wide Speed Limit 25 unless otherwise posted". Then a few feet later there is a posted speed limit of 30MPH and FSD slows to 30MPH. A few feet after that, I have no idea why, FSD decides the speed limit is now 55MPH! Nope! I do not know what triggers this but it is repeatable. FSD should be more aware of what sort.of street it is on and take that context into consideration when it gets conflicting information.
7. This point isn't a posted sign issue but rather, the lack of a posted sign. Scenario: traveling on a road with a speed limit of 25MPH. Approaching an intersection where the only choice is to turn right onto the highway. Come to a stop sign, stop, turn right onto a highway that has a speed limit of 55MPH but that speed limit isn't posted when turning onto the highway so FSD creeps along at 25MPH on a 55MPH highway. FSD and/or the car Navigation system should know the speed limit for that highway.

Same problem for me except worse because I was traveling US route 15! Repeatedly slowing down urgently to 15mph in speed zones which were as high as 55mph. Think I’ll try to stay away from US1 (which runs the entire eastern seaboard from Maine to Key West).

 

[JB47394]

One of the major problems I have had with FSD 12.3.6 is that is does not understand posted signage.

Yep. We've all seen various problems of this sort.

Remember that this is Tesla's first attempt at a neural network for a vehicle control system. It will improve with time because they're working very hard to make it better across the board - and Elon has said that significant improvements are coming soon (though not necessarily on understanding various signs). We just have to hang in there and wait for Tesla's engineers to figure out how to recognize the myriad permutations of posted rules. They absolutely want to figure that out because Elon is insistent on creating robotaxis, and those have to be perfect. Our cars won't become robotaxis, but they'll benefit from Tesla's work moving forward, subject to the limitations of our cameras and computers.

The best we can do is keep disengaging when we see a problem and provide a voice report. I'm sure they have countless examples of each thing you've listed, but I keep throwing data at them in the hope that I'm helping.

 

[JulienW]

......3. Speed Limit signs when going around sharp curves like Exit Ramps. For example, traveling 60MPH approaching a sharp curve that has signs posted to take the curve at 30MPH. FSD did not slow down and I had to disengage and took said curve at 42MPH. This has happened on multiple occasions so I rarely let FSD drive on roads with sharp curves (besides, I sound like my dad: "You're going too fast! Slow down!" And I'm 66 years old now)...

Not speed LIMIT signs. These yellow signs are caution and speed suggested info only.

 

[tmruwart]

Not speed LIMIT signs. These yellow signs are caution and speed suggested info only.

Yes, but FSD should be more aware of these signs because I have had two disengagements due to FSD approaching a curve at a speed far too fast for the curve. In one instance, it would have been difficult to make the curve safely especially if the surface was wet, *and* it is a "blind" curve where traffic tends to back up just beyond the curve but you cannot see the backed up / stopped traffic until you are well into the curve. My point is that being aware of these Caution Signs is critical to safe driving. My experience has been that FSD ignores them.

 

[Unclepaul]

In school zones, construction zones and other high risk areas, many people simple take over and drive manually.

 

[tmruwart]

Yep. We've all seen various problems of this sort.

Remember that this is Tesla's first attempt at a neural network for a vehicle control system. It will improve with time because they're working very hard to make it better across the board - and Elon has said that significant improvements are coming soon (though not necessarily on understanding various signs). We just have to hang in there and wait for Tesla's engineers to figure out how to recognize the myriad permutations of posted rules. They absolutely want to figure that out because Elon is insistent on creating robotaxis, and those have to be perfect. Our cars won't become robotaxis, but they'll benefit from Tesla's work moving forward, subject to the limitations of our cameras and computers.

The best we can do is keep disengaging when we see a problem and provide a voice report. I'm sure they have countless examples of each thing you've listed, but I keep throwing data at them in the hope that I'm helping.

Yes, I agree wholeheartedly with you. I have spent the better part of 47 years in computer hardware and software development which is why I am thrilled to be able to help with the FSD training by using it as much as possible and providing as much useful feedback as possible. I post my observations because I am very curious to know if other FSD users have had similar experiences.
On the flipside of the FSD coin is the fact that FSD "learns" in real-time and I find that truly amazing. For example, I went to a friend's house where a "left turn lane" was replaced with a roundabout. FSD approached the roundabout and turned on the left blinker to make a left turn. I disengaged, completed the roundabout, and engaged FSD for the remainder of the trip. 45 minutes later I came back to that same intersection from the same direction with the same destination and FSD flawlessly navigated thru the roundabout. It learned! And that is not an isolated example of learning. I have had several. Truly amazing.

 

[tmruwart]

In school zones, construction zones and other high risk areas, many people simple take over and drive manually.

Yes, I came close to a school zone and even though there were no busses or kids around, I still disengaged until I was well past the school zone.

 

[JB47394]

On the flipside of the FSD coin is the fact that FSD "learns" in real-time and I find that truly amazing.

Emphasis on the quotes. The neural network doesn't actually learn in real time. It learns from the process of training the neural network at the Tesla server farm, then downloading a new version to our cars. Apart from that, the car can "learn" each time it is given a route because the route can be based on the most up to date data in the routing database, which is not stored on the car.

If you're seeing changes in behavior, it'll likely be due to changing circumstances. The lighting, whether you have a lead car, the geometry of the roads, stuff like that. The car is not following heuristics, so its behavior can be determined by any number of factors that we might not pick up on.

 

[GlazedHam]

I've been on a cross country trip this month and I can't quite remember which state it was maybe Montana but there would be a speed sign for 75MPH, then there would be a speed sign for 45MPH for trucks under some GVWR, the there would be a speed sign for 35MPH for trucks over some GVWR. What does FSD do? Reads 75mph then 45MPH then sticks with 35MPH..

 

[thyname]

Yes, I agree wholeheartedly with you. I have spent the better part of 47 years in computer hardware and software development which is why I am thrilled to be able to help with the FSD training by using it as much as possible and providing as much useful feedback as possible. I post my observations because I am very curious to know if other FSD users have had similar experiences.
On the flipside of the FSD coin is the fact that FSD "learns" in real-time and I find that truly amazing. For example, I went to a friend's house where a "left turn lane" was replaced with a roundabout. FSD approached the roundabout and turned on the left blinker to make a left turn. I disengaged, completed the roundabout, and engaged FSD for the remainder of the trip. 45 minutes later I came back to that same intersection from the same direction with the same destination and FSD flawlessly navigated thru the roundabout. It learned! And that is not an isolated example of learning. I have had several. Truly amazing.

If that’s true, and not merely a coincidence, IMO, it’s amazing!

 

[PCMc]

I'm just glad in the area I live it will interpret IN state highway 135 signs as 35 mph, and not 135 mph!

I also find it interesting that it will interpret IN highway 46 sign as a 45 mph speed limit. So there's obviously some logic imbedded somewhere that speed limits are in increments of 5 mph to realize 46 mph is not a rational speed limit, so it rounds to 45 mph.

Some who were around when Tesla first introduced AP2 vision based how they did not do any speed limit sign recognition, but had to rely solely on a map based approach. My understanding is that went back to MobileEye having some patents around speed limit sign recognition. It's been several years since I researched any of the MobileEye patents, so don't recall exactly what is was about their algorithms which was the basis of the patent. I'm wondering if what we're all still seeing with Tesla Vision based approach goes back to the inherent limitations of what Telsa implementation has needed to be to stay away from the prior MobileEye patent art. I know that the cases I see with Indiana state highway signs getting incorrectly recognized never happened in the 7.5 years I owned my 2016 Model S with AP1..

 

[gsmith123]

I find it's a bit a too cautious around corners, but I tend to take them a fair bit (maybe a lot) over the advisory speeds so it may just be my preference coming through. Hard to tell though. FSD is pretty inconsistent so it might also be too cautious on my roads and too aggressive where you drive.

 

[Bikeman]

When I had the free trial I was traveling on Hwy 225 in Rockford, Illinois. The car thought the speed limit was 25 and slowed. I of course disengaged, but the display was still displaying 25 as the spped limit. The real limit was 40. I am only thankful that the car didn't think the speed limit was 225 mph. I have had similar experiences.

Because I use the State Farm Drive Safe app and unit mounted in my car, I get nicked if I go beyond 7mph over the speed limit (I don't know how their app actually knows what the speed limit is in every location in the country). But because I like to keep my real speed under that +7mph, I use Tesla's speed warning tone to alert me. When the car reads these signs incorrectly, I have to listen to the tone over and over until it can read a sign correctly. The tech is very cool, but it gets this wrong a lot of times. If I had bought FSD, I would have wanted my money back for failures such as this.

 

[GlazedHam]

I'm just glad in the area I live it will interpret IN state highway 135 signs as 35 mph, and not 135 mph!

I also find it interesting that it will interpret IN highway 46 sign as a 45 mph speed limit. So there's obviously some logic imbedded somewhere that speed limits are in increments of 5 mph to realize 46 mph is not a rational speed limit, so it rounds to 45 mph.

Some who were around when Tesla first introduced AP2 vision based how they did not do any speed limit sign recognition, but had to rely solely on a map based approach. My understanding is that went back to MobileEye having some patents around speed limit sign recognition. It's been several years since I researched any of the MobileEye patents, so don't recall exactly what is was about their algorithms which was the basis of the patent. I'm wondering if what we're all still seeing with Tesla Vision based approach goes back to the inherent limitations of what Telsa implementation has needed to be to stay away from the prior MobileEye patent art. I know that the cases I see with Indiana state highway signs getting incorrectly recognized never happened in the 7.5 years I owned my 2016 Model S with AP1..

Actually that would make sense if they are migrating from hardcoded to Ai.

 

[Goose66]

Also it doesn’t seem to be able to distinguish minimum speed limit signs from regular speed limit signs (although they are annoyingly similar).

As much as I hate to say it I think the higher resolution cameras of HW4 may make this a lot better, but I will never get to see that because I’ll never pay to continue to be part of the FSD clown show again. 6 years and still no autonomy while other manufacturers have passed the by. You know what they say: “Fool me once…”

 

[Yelobird]

Also it doesn’t seem to be able to distinguish minimum speed limit signs from regular speed limit signs (although they are annoyingly similar).

As much as I hate to say it I think the higher resolution cameras of HW4 may make this a lot better, but I will never get to see that because I’ll never pay to continue to be part of the FSD clown show again. 6 years and still no autonomy while other manufacturers have passed the by. You know what they say: “Fool me once…”

Which manufacturers have “passed them by” for all US streets? I would like to test drive one let us know.

 

[RDoc]

It also doesn't know about No Right Turn on Red signs.

 

[enemji]

Yes, but FSD should be more aware of these signs because I have had two disengagements due to FSD approaching a curve at a speed far too fast for the curve.

In all cases, when I am driving, I am doing +20 on curves posted speed limit. Thsoe speed limits are generally for the lowest common denominator ie large trucks with soft suspensions that would understeer dangerously.

 

[Goose66]

Which manufacturers have “passed them by” for all US streets? I would like to test drive one let us know.

“Passed them by” in terms of providing driving automation - specifically hands-off, eyes-off driving automation. No one said anything about “all US streets,” and that seems like a strange metric to use for success, IMO, because all streets automation would really only be helpful for robotaxis, and even you have to agree there are a number of companies way ahead of Tesla on robotaxi deployment.