Ford Will Unveil Chevrolet Bolt Competitor This Year

[scaesare]

Interesting that the article called it a Bolt competitor, not a Tesla competitor. A more reasonable comparison, to be sure.

I thought similarly.

I wonder if there's any reluctance to "legitimize" Tesla as a competitor?

 

[RobStark]

To be fair, the Model 3 is just vaporware at this point.

No it is not.

Definition.

In the computer industry, vaporware is a product, typically computer hardware or software, that is announced to the general public but is never actually manufactured nor officially cancelled.
Vaporware is often announced months or years before its purported release, with development details lacking. Usage of the word has broadened to products such as automobiles. At times, vendors are criticized for intentionally producing vaporware in order to keep customers from switching to competitive products that offer more features.

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Interesting that the article called it a Bolt competitor, not a Tesla competitor. A more reasonable comparison, to be sure.

I am shocked it was not labeled a Tesla Killer.

 

[AnOutsider]

No it is not.

Definition.

In the computer industry, vaporware is a product, typically computer hardware or software, that is announced to the general public but is never actually manufactured nor officially cancelled.
Vaporware is often announced months or years before its purported release, with development details lacking. Usage of the word has broadened to products such as automobiles. At times, vendors are criticized for intentionally producing vaporware in order to keep customers from switching to competitive products that offer more features.

Without getting too pedantic, I think vaporware COULD apply to the Model 3. Sure, we believe Tesla has intentions on producing it, but for right now, it's mostly an idea. That we know of, there are no renderings or specs in existence -- just the idea that it WILL exist.

Many folks jumped on and called the Bolt vaporware -- and it definitely could be -- but the public has more on the Bolt than they do of the Model 3.

 

[Yggdrasill]

Displaying a concept vehicle is a lot cheaper than building a $5 billion battery factory, though. I would say that we have more to go on with regards to the Model 3 than the Chevy Bolt.

I would say that *most* concept vehicles are vaporware. Tesla on the other hand doesn't really do concept vehicles, they have no need to drum up enthusiasm, so they just show the cars they are planning on bringing to market.

 

[igotzzoom]

But the Ford is definitely a compromised vehicle. No rapid charging, no cargo space, not particularly cheap. The price at which they launched the FFE in Norway was significantly higher than the Leaf, but it didn't take long before they had to drop the price by almost 15.000 USD, to bring the price in line with people's willingness to pay. I'm not sure if they're still selling them here. I can't find any new ones online, though they still list it on their website.

Yeah. I think the Focus EV is kind of a half-hearted effort. Packaging is poor, and range is only so-so. If it could build a Focus or C-Max-sized vehicle with full cargo capacity and a 200-mile range, it would have a winner.

 

[DuncanWatson]

You claim this, but evidence suggests otherwise.

Average of 100 sold per month.
Components completely sourced from outside supplier (Magna).
Retrofit to existing vehicle without effort to optimize (battery in trunk).
Not available without special order from vast majority of dealers.
Sold only in US (and some parts of Canada), whereas most of their other products are worldwide.

I've owned and enjoyed many Ford's over the years.
My last one was traded in for an EV, and it wasn't made by Ford.
My next EV will be a Tesla.

Compliance EVs are available in CA and a handpicked # of states. You are moving the goalposts. I drive a Focus EV and it was very easy to lease.

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Ford today is doing not much more than lip service. Yes, it's more than just compliance as they sell in all 50 states, but to state that they do more than Nissan seems to be a stretch.
All that said I'm super excited to see another serious entry by a mainstream car maker. The more choices, the more price points, the better.

I didn't say they do more than Nissan, I was pointing out that Ford has more EV (ish) models than Nissan. The comparison was supposed to point out the silliness of calling Ford a compliance EV manufacturer. Sure the bar is low but there are very few manufacturers that do as well as Ford in EVs, basically Nissan and Tesla. Chevy's BEV the Sparc is a compliance car.

I would love to see a real BEV from Ford. I am tired of waiting for a 200 mile EV, I want to see one that I can afford.

 

[dirkhh]

I didn't say they do more than Nissan, I was pointing out that Ford has more EV (ish) models than Nissan. The comparison was supposed to point out the silliness of calling Ford a compliance EV manufacturer. Sure the bar is low but there are very few manufacturers that do as well as Ford in EVs, basically Nissan and Tesla. Chevy's BEV the Sparc is a compliance car.

I guess you have a point. But it seems like a rather subtle distinction. In my mind a lot of people here will tell you that you either are serious about EVs (like Tesla, and arguably Nissan - they do a lot of marketing for the Leaf, all the work with the charging stations at dealers... not perfect, but definitely serious about EVs), or you aren't. And today I'd state that Ford isn't entirely serious about EVs :-/

I would love to see a real BEV from Ford. I am tired of waiting for a 200 mile EV, I want to see one that I can afford.

This is what I keep coming back to. The more BEVs enter the market, the better. We shouldn't look down at sub 100 mile range EVs. I'm driving my wife's Leaf while waiting for delivery of my next Tesla. And the Leaf is a great little car. I test drove the Spark - yes, just a compliance car with no intent to actually sell numbers, still, useful to have in the market. So even if the next EV does not offer > 200 mile range, I'm still excited to see more and more options in the market.

 

[EVNow]

So... I'm curious about what is driving this. Is this all about compliance cars? Or are the big 3 hedging their bets by announcing cheap to build concept cars with imaginary capabilities? Or do they also see a longer term trend developing, and are they legitimately investing?

I hope the third, but suspect the second and a bit of the first.

None of the above.

I think it is mostly to
- "Show" that they are doing something about the Tesla "threat"
- These are kind of tech "halo" cars

The important point about this "news" is that - LG does have batteries that can be put into small cars to go 200 miles at a reasonable (<$40k) price. This is exactly what LG has been claiming for quite some time. This is what GM has been saying for a while - and now Ford. Infact there was talk about Nissan ditching their own batteries in favor of these LG batteries.

At this point to even say these are cars with "imaginary capabilities" is to ignore the writing on the wall.

I should also note : just like today there will be exactly 2 companies competing in the BEV market in 3 years - Nissan & Tesla. GM & Ford's offerings will be limited volume - with little marketing /esire to sell the models.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

I am shocked it was not labeled a Tesla Killer.

Anton Wahlman hasn't released his article yet...

I am not surprised, the 2016 to 2018 period has been indicated as the key generation for several years now and sh8uld be the one to create self-susta7ning market. Tesla is the only company aggressively pursuing rapid scaling. That gives it a few years on the competition.

 

[SmartElectric]

Compliance EVs are available in CA and a handpicked # of states. You are moving the goalposts. I drive a Focus EV and it was very easy to lease.

My Smart ED was easy to purchase too, but like the Ford Focus EV is low volume and compliance, nothing more.
I know you don't agree, but facts do not make your case.

 

[MSEV]

Out here in the middle of the country (Nebraska), I can't seem to buy a Mercedes Class B, a Fiat EV, or any of the others I've called about. There is the BMW i3 (I liked it, test drove it, but it died of a dead battery when it said 63 miles left so my wife nixed it) and the Leaf, but every time I get close to buying one of these short milers I remember I can't drive it to my mom's house safely (45 mi away) and get home, so I wait for the 200 miler that a few companies are talking about but no one has in this price range.
But all of that is also why I ordered a Model S...

 

[bluenation]

I think you could argue that the Ford Focus Electric isn't a compliance car. That they started selling it in Norway at least proves that they are (or were) making money with each additional sale, as we don't have CARB credits, something which can't be said for all the compliance cars.

But the Ford definitly is definitely a compromised vehicle. No rapid charging, no cargo space, not particularly cheap. The price at which they launched the FFE in Norway was significantly higher than the Leaf, but it didn't take long before they had to drop the price by almost 15.000 USD, to bring the price in line with people's willingness to pay. I'm not sure if they're still selling them here. I can't find any new ones online, though they still list it on their website.

to be fair, every single passenger EV car in existence is seriously compromised except the S.

Without getting too pedantic, I think vaporware COULD apply to the Model 3. Sure, we believe Tesla has intentions on producing it, but for right now, it's mostly an idea. That we know of, there are no renderings or specs in existence -- just the idea that it WILL exist.

Many folks jumped on and called the Bolt vaporware -- and it definitely could be -- but the public has more on the Bolt than they do of the Model 3.

pretty much.

the model 3 exists in computer sketches and at most, molds only. the bolt is tangible and more real.

you cant credibly call the bolt vaporware or similar, without looking like a black kettle.

 

[Doug_G]

To be fair, the Model 3 is just vaporware at this point. Tesla says's its coming and I have no reason to doubt it, but we haven't even seen a sketch of it yet. There is a real life honest-to-god Bolt prototype out on the tour circuit right now.

I completely disagree with that characterization. Ford has been showing a concept car, not a drivable prototype. It's basically a large-scale toy model. It will probably bear no physical resemblance whatsoever to the final product.

Tesla could do a toy model too... they simply choose not to. It's pointless except for generating some highly-premature press.

 

[mknox]

I test drove the Spark - yes, just a compliance car with no intent to actually sell numbers, still, useful to have in the market.

I think the Spark EV is more than that. It is available in other markets, including Canada unlike, for instance, the Rav4 EV which despite being built in Canada is only available in California.

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I completely disagree with that characterization. Ford has been showing a concept car, not a drivable prototype. It's basically a large-scale toy model.

My comment was around the statement about Ford comparing their offering to the Chevy Bolt and not the Tesla Model 3. The Bolt (full scale toy or not) is out there at auto shows and on display while the Model 3 has not even been revealed in sketches yet.

 

[Yggdrasill]

to be fair, every single passenger EV car in existence is seriously compromised except the S.

Not nearly to the extent of the Ford Focus Electric. If you only occasionally take trips beyond 25 miles from home without destination charging, or 50 miles with destination charging, and virtually never take trips beyond 100-200 miles from home, a Nissan Leaf is a fine choice for a family car. The FFE is only an option if you virtually never take trips beyond 25 miles from home without destination charging, or 50 miles with destination charging. It's smaller carrying capacity and inability to fold the rear seats flat, also means it has nowhere near the utility of a Leaf, and it's hard to see it serving in the role as a family car for very many people.

The FFE will for most people be a pure commuter car. And then they have one or two other cars for everything else. But if you only use it for commuting, there are other, cheaper options on the market. (At least when compared to the fairly high price they would have to charge for the FFE to make any sort of meaningful profit.)

 

[ecarfan]

I was under the impression Tesla had aspirations to move beyond just premium BEV.

Yes of course. This is well known. See Elon's blog post from 2006. The Secret Tesla Motors Master Plan (just between you and me) | Tesla Motors België
Quote: "As you know, the initial product of Tesla Motors is a high performance electric sports car called the Tesla Roadster. However, some readers may not be aware of the fact that our long term plan is to build a wide range of models, including affordably priced family cars. This is because the overarching purpose of Tesla Motors (and the reason I am funding the company) is to help expedite the move from a mine-and-burn hydrocarbon economy towards a solar electric economy, which I believe to be the primary, but not exclusive, sustainable solution."

And that is still Tesla's goal. Now if you read the rest of that blog post, you will see that Tesla's rate of progress towards building an affordable sedan is slower than what Elon hoped for when he wrote that blog post almost 9 years ago. Ask him today and he will freely admit that building cars is much more difficult than he thought it would be in 2006. But tremendous progress has been made, and at this point Tesla is just a few years away from a $35K 200 mile car. Some critics continue to dismiss Tesla as a manufacturer of cars for rich people, but I am confident Tesla will prove them wrong with the Model 3 and subsequent models.

Elon considers a BEV that starts at $35k to be a mass market vehicle. To most that is an entry level luxury car.

I agree that for a majority of American car buyers that is a higher price than they have ever paid for a car. But I think as people learn about the long term cost advantages of a long-range EV (no gasoline, free Supercharging on road trips, low cost charging at night at home, long life of drivetrain and battery, lower maintenance costs) they will factor that in to the purchase cost and realize that they can keep a well-built EV for a decade or more and over that time it will cost less than a $25K ICE.

Obviously Tesla is not there yet, and the mindset of the general car-buying public is not there yet either. But real progress has been made and I am confident that in far less than a decade we will be there. The Gigafactory and the Model 3 are still early steps along the path towards the ultimate goal: low cost, sustainable transport. Elon is playing the long game, and I'm onboard for the ride...

 

[Doug_G]

The Bolt (full scale toy or not) is out there at auto shows and on display while the Model 3 has not even been revealed in sketches yet.

A fake Bolt is out there on display, which doesn't work and probably bears no resemblance to the actual product. That is no indication whatsoever of progress on the vehicle. Many concept cars are complete vaporware and never make it to production. Those that do rarely look anything like the concept car. Volt, for example.

I'm more impressed by engineering. No evidence of any has been shown. I'm even more impressed by actual working vehicles.

Tesla doesn't need to do that, they have thousands of real EVs on the street every day.

 

[mknox]

Tesla doesn't need to do that, they have thousands of real EVs on the street every day.

They have thousands of real expensive EVs on the street. This thread is about the rush (if you can call it that) to get a reasonably affordable BEV on the market. There are still a lot of people who dismiss Tesla as an exotic for the rich. In fact, at the recent Toronto Auto Show, Tesla had their display in a completely separate wing of the show with the Bentleys, McLarens, Maseratis Ferraris and Rolls Royces. The room was full of Joe Average-types just there to ooh and ahhh over the exotics but not really consider them in any practical sense. (I was sorry that there wasn't a decent EV section like there was in past years).

Tesla has announced something but shown nothing. No working Model 3, no engineering specs, not even a picture. The Bolt prototype is out there, on the tour circuit, and GM is on record saying that they will bring it to market at a reasonable price point. Okay maybe, maybe not, but I think GM is at least trying to move ahead with the Volt, Spark EV and now the Bolt. Elon's stated goal was to push and prod other makers to do precisely this, and I think it should be celebrated, not ridiculed.

Ford is correct in pointing to the Bolt as their primary competitive target right now. The Bolt is a good example of a potential mainstream EV with decent range when compared to the current Leafs and i-MiEVs of the world. When Tesla brings a Model 3 prototype to the fore, just as they did with Model S and Model X, and it starts gaining some mainstream awareness, then Ford and GM may start referencing it as their competitive target. Tesla needs to demonstrate their move from exotic/expensive to mainstream in some tangible way first.

 

[Krugerrand]

A fake Bolt is out there on display, which doesn't work and probably bears no resemblance to the actual product. That is no indication whatsoever of progress on the vehicle.

This.

Tesla already has shown they can make a 200+mile BEV. Actually they killed it on that front. Tesla has also shown the path to the more affordable BEV; reducing vehicle size, reducing luxury type features, and producing their own battery cells. On the other hand, GM has shown a body shell and repeated Tesla's 'announced specs'. I'm confounded that anyone would thusly consider GM's declarations more real than Tesla's on this front, that Tesla's Model 3 is somehow more vaporware than GM's Bolt simply because Tesla hasn't shown some randomly assembled body panels. It's as if there's no understanding at all of what Tesla has already accomplished and are in the process of doing.

 

[dirkhh]

Tesla has announced something but shown nothing. No working Model 3, no engineering specs, not even a picture. The Bolt prototype is out there, on the tour circuit, and GM is on record saying that they will bring it to market at a reasonable price point. Okay maybe, maybe not, but I think GM is at least trying to move ahead with the Volt, Spark EV and now the Bolt. Elon's stated goal was to push and prod other makers to do precisely this, and I think it should be celebrated, not ridiculed.

THAT
Tesla has shown that it can build one amazing car.
They've shown that making a second one in parallel is pretty much beyond what they are ready to do (Model X was announced for 2013 delivery, right? Yet lots of people here still parrot that Model 3 will ship in 2017... puhleaaase)
We should cheer for Ford and GM and anyone else who is trying to push into this market. I so hope that someone will have a credible and useable $40k BEV with even 150 mile range out in the next year or two. That would be wonderful.