For those owners unhappy with drop in maximum charged range

[Super Gizmo]

I have a P85 VIN:1586 bought in 11/2012. I have close to 16K miles on the car. I live in the Bay Area where the temp today is approximately 70. Last night I did a range charge for only the 4th time since owning the car and I was shocked to see that the Rated Miles on a full charge are only 246. I never let the battery get down below 100- 140 miles. I only used the Superchargers on the way back from LA last year on I-5 because the ones on 101 were not active at the time. When I Supercharged on that trip, I only charged to 90% or less. My car is usually charged to 170-180 miles for daily use. My 90% Rated charge is down to 212. I have been doing all the right things espoused by Tesla - like leaving the car plugged in most of the time so I am very disappointed to see the loss in range. My life time Wh per mile is 316.
I feel this is unacceptable. I have taken care of the car and bought 8 year extended warranty and maintenance plans, had the car serviced on time. I don't hod rod or race the car because I have a bad back and have had neck surgery. I think it is time to get in touch with the higher ups in Tesla and find out what the hell is going on here. This is very upsetting to say the least.

 

[ckessel]

I have a P85 VIN:1586 bought in 11/2012. I have close to 16K miles on the car. I live in the Bay Area where the temp today is approximately 70. Last night I did a range charge for only the 4th time since owning the car and I was shocked to see that the Rated Miles on a full charge are only 246. I never let the battery get down below 100- 140 miles. I only used the Superchargers on the way back from LA last year on I-5 because the ones on 101 were not active at the time. When I Supercharged on that trip, I only charged to 90% or less. My car is usually charged to 170-180 miles for daily use. My 90% Rated charge is down to 212. I have been doing all the right things espoused by Tesla - like leaving the car plugged in most of the time so I am very disappointed to see the loss in range. My life time Wh per mile is 316.
I feel this is unacceptable. I have taken care of the car and bought 8 year extended warranty and maintenance plans, had the car serviced on time. I don't hod rod or race the car because I have a bad back and have had neck surgery. I think it is time to get in touch with the higher ups in Tesla and find out what the hell is going on here. This is very upsetting to say the least.

I was trying to figure out what to snip down rather than quote the whole thing, but...exactly, this. I have almost the identical profile for charging, usage, age of car, # of miles, etc. I'm slightly better at 250 for a range charge, but just slightly.

I've heard all sorts of mixed messages about whether to do a bunch of range charges to get back range or not to because that's bad and the battery isn't really degraded (though if I can't use the range, that's sort of an irrelevant distinction). I've no idea. I know my degradation after 14 months seems high and there hasn't been any consistent message from Tesla about what it means.

What I'm really afraid of is A packs might have worse degradation since they have less well protected batteries and we're just hosed as early buyers because degradation isn't covered under warranty. I just don't know though, so all I'm left with are assumptions of worst case scenarios.

 

[gaswalla]

I have a P85 VIN:1586 bought in 11/2012. I have close to 16K miles on the car. I live in the Bay Area where the temp today is approximately 70. Last night I did a range charge for only the 4th time since owning the car and I was shocked to see that the Rated Miles on a full charge are only 246. I never let the battery get down below 100- 140 miles. I only used the Superchargers on the way back from LA last year on I-5 because the ones on 101 were not active at the time. When I Supercharged on that trip, I only charged to 90% or less. My car is usually charged to 170-180 miles for daily use. My 90% Rated charge is down to 212. I have been doing all the right things espoused by Tesla - like leaving the car plugged in most of the time so I am very disappointed to see the loss in range. My life time Wh per mile is 316.
I feel this is unacceptable. I have taken care of the car and bought 8 year extended warranty and maintenance plans, had the car serviced on time. I don't hod rod or race the car because I have a bad back and have had neck surgery. I think it is time to get in touch with the higher ups in Tesla and find out what the hell is going on here. This is very upsetting to say the least.

your experience s consistent with many others that have not range charged frequently..looks like range charging intermittently may keep the battery balanced.

 

[kcveins]

your experience s consistent with many others that have not range charged frequently..looks like range charging intermittently may keep the battery balanced.

I'm not sure; I fit the same above profile; took delivery in Feb 2013, have 18,500 miles, range charge a couple of times a month. Full range charge was 252 last week; 90% gives me 217-219 regularly. I was shocked when I got a loaner that the rated range was 274...

 

[altman]

I have a P85 VIN:1586 bought in 11/2012. I have close to 16K miles on the car. I live in the Bay Area where the temp today is approximately 70. Last night I did a range charge for only the 4th time since owning the car and I was shocked to see that the Rated Miles on a full charge are only 246.

Very similar to you; I posted on another thread at the end of last year when I'd gone down to 240 miles (Sig 1083, 11/2012 like you, type A pack). I'm now almost at 12k miles and my full charge was 237 miles

 

[ckessel]

Very similar to you; I posted on another thread at the end of last year when I'd gone down to 240 miles (Sig 1083, 11/2012 like you, type A pack). I'm now almost at 12k miles and my full charge was 237 miles

I...wow...237.

Tesla absolutely need to make good on this somehow at some point. Now, they've got time and they've done well in the past, so I'm not going to yell at them for a few years. We're all the guinea pigs for long term degradation on temperature controlled automotive grade batteries. Plus, Tesla has a huge vested interest in showing batteries aren't a rapidly degrading asset, so if the problem is early batteries then I wouldn't be surprised to see them bulk replace A packs somewhere 3-4 years down the line.

In the meantime though, it'd be great if we could get some official studies/word on how degradation is going and how to manage the battery pack because there's a huge divergence in degradation (actual or inaccurate algorithms) amongst owners.

I'm maintaining the faith at this point, but it's worth acknowledging that for some folks early degradation levels aren't living up to the 70% after 8 years/100k that Tesla had projected.

 

[rlang59]

I...wow...237.

Tesla absolutely need to make good on this somehow at some point. Now, they've got time and they've done well in the past, so I'm not going to yell at them for a few years. We're all the guinea pigs for long term degradation on temperature controlled automotive grade batteries. Plus, Tesla has a huge vested interest in showing batteries aren't a rapidly degrading asset, so if the problem is early batteries then I wouldn't be surprised to see them bulk replace A packs somewhere 3-4 years down the line.

In the meantime though, it'd be great if we could get some official studies/word on how degradation is going and how to manage the battery pack because there's a huge divergence in degradation (actual or inaccurate algorithms) amongst owners.

I'm maintaining the faith at this point, but it's worth acknowledging that for some folks early degradation levels aren't living up to the 70% after 8 years/100k that Tesla had projected.

I would not count on that at all.

 

[ckessel]

I would not count on that at all.

I didn't say I'd count on it, but that it wouldn't surprise me.

If A packs are degrading badly, currently on pace for over 50% in 5 years for some of us, then having Tesla replace 2000 packs to save Tesla's brand from devastating lawsuits and PR? Yea, I can see that happening.

 

[gg_got_a_tesla]

My "A 60 kWh" pack hasn't done too badly - 90% charge down from 187 (I think) in the early days to 175 and max down from 208 to 203 - but, I'm thinking (hoping) that everyone's degradation is going to taper off from the second year onwards. I've heard it reiterated many times that degradation is at its worst in the first year but, tapers off reasonably quickly after.

It may be true that Tesla may have improved the BMS over the past year and a half (and new cars may benefit from this from day one) but, it may also be a bit late to reclaim some of the lost range in the earliest packs. All speculation on my part though...

 

[stopcrazypp]

I'm not sure; I fit the same above profile; took delivery in Feb 2013, have 18,500 miles, range charge a couple of times a month. Full range charge was 252 last week; 90% gives me 217-219 regularly. I was shocked when I got a loaner that the rated range was 274...

For the record, the baseline rated range is 265 (same as EPA). Some cars may come out of the factory higher than that (although I haven't seen 274, maybe that's not rated range?), but looking at the battery curve for similar cells, that doesn't last very long (there's a very rapid drop within the first few cycles).

 

[rlang59]

I didn't say I'd count on it, but that it wouldn't surprise me.

If A packs are degrading badly, currently on pace for over 50% in 5 years for some of us, then having Tesla replace 2000 packs to save Tesla's brand from devastating lawsuits and PR? Yea, I can see that happening.

It would be nice for Tesla to do that and would be great for those with A packs but it would be a big PR problem when people who have anything other than an A pack have degradation and don't get a new pack from Tesla. I think if it is done it would be on a case by case basis not a bulk replacement.

- - - Updated - - -

My "A 60 kWh" pack hasn't done too badly - 90% charge down from 187 (I think) in the early days to 175 and max down from 208 to 203 - but, I'm thinking (hoping) that everyone's degradation is going to taper off from the second year onwards. I've heard it reiterated many times that degradation is at its worst in the first year but, tapers off reasonably quickly after.

It may be true that Tesla may have improved the BMS over the past year and a half (and new cars may benefit from this from day one) but, it may also be a bit late to reclaim some of the lost range in the earliest packs. All speculation on my part though...

Don't forget that the "standard" charge was 93% back then.

 

[ckessel]

My "A 60 kWh" pack hasn't done too badly - 90% charge down from 187 (I think) in the early days to 175 and max down from 208 to 203

Apparently, based on all the posts in the thread about early 85kwh A packs being limited to 90kw supercharging, the 60kwh A packs are equivalent to the B 85kwh packs. Anyway, I have no idea if pack types have anything to do with degradation other than it's us earliest buyers that seem to have it worst. But then we're also the ones with packs with the most age and miles on them.

I truly hope the degradation issues either aren't linear as we go along or are confined to a few packs, otherwise Tesla will have a pretty crippling problem and that would really suck for us all.

 

[ModelS1079]

Degradation more in the first year. 30 k miles and car still drives like a dream.

 

[ChadS]

I know it's disconcerting to see the numbers go down. But having owned a few EVs, I think some new owners are reading too much in to it. As has been said numerous times here, most of the range is not lost. It's just that since you can't really measure "miles" in a pack, they have to do a lot of tricky calculations that don't work right unless you occasionally visit near the top and bottom in a single trip. And without balancing every now and then, you will hit end voltage sooner and sooner. Doing a full cycle once, and/or balancing once, is not good enough due to the algorithms that measure over time. But you don't want to do them constantly, because they are not good for the battery. (They don't do much damage; doing it every now and then is fine. You just don't want to do it regularly. So my advice is to just do it when you need the range anyway, like for a trip).

My numbers kept dropping for a few months while we were only charging to 70%, and rarely using a significant amount of that. Then we took a road trip, and the numbers went up. Then we got back, now the numbers are going down again. So it goes - the numbers will go up again when I do another trip. Previous cars, including the Roadster and a RAV4 with NiMH batteries, did the same thing. We still have way more miles than we need for driving around on a daily basis, or to reach the next Supercharger, so I'm not worried about it. Of course some range is being lost; but with this chemistry, the greatest loss is at the very beginning, then it levels off. Roadsters look on track to have about 80% of their range after 100k miles, and I am confident the Model S will do at least that well.

Of course, it would help if Tesla would say more about it. But they won't. I sometimes think they like to see us muddling around, wondering how our cars are doing, and without sufficient information to know for sure. (Actually I think they are just afraid to say something in case they want to make changes in the future; then everybody would insist what they heard before was correct and wonder why the new behavior doesn't match it...).

 

[Super Gizmo]

I feel that it is truly shocking for Tesla to not address this problem head on and be forthright about it. After all many of us have spent over a hundred grand on these cars. If Tesla thinks we will just bitch & moan on these forums and then disappear they have a rude surprise awaiting. If my problem is not addressed by the Service Center when my car is taken in for this issue and I am not given a clear explanation in writing, I will leave no stone unturned to get this out in public through media, news releases or whatever means necessary and this is no idle threat. I have every right to do that because I feel I have been wronged. There are some serious problems with this car. After all the battery pack is the most important component of this car. I feel we the early buyers have been wronged here and may be entitled to damages and at the minimum this problem should be corrected. As for the people suggesting to range charge frequently to get the range back that is totally contrary to what Tesla has espoused. Should we believe you or the manufacturer. Tesla is riding high because most people don't know about some of these serious problems. I want Tesla to do well but not at my expense.

 

[Canuck]

There are some serious problems with this car... Tesla is riding high because most people don't know about some of these serious problems.

I just got my car yesterday so I can't add much to this topic except to ask what other "serious problems" are you experiencing with this car other than the apparent loss of 18% of your battery for a range charge? I understand during your last range charge you got 246 and when new it was 300. You've had it since Nov 2012 so some decrease has to be expected. Perhaps balancing will bring some back, and from what I've read, most degradation happens in the first couple of years, so I don't think you expect to see 100%. I understand that you are upset, and I would be too with the 18% loss, but I'd like to know what would be an acceptable amount of loss to expect in the first 1 to 2 years? And when you say "there are some serious problems with this car" and "most people don't know about some of these serious problems" what are the other problems you are referring to, other than your complaint about battery degradation?

 

[andrewket]

Range charged this morning. 9113.9 miles on the odo, topped out at 247.8 rated miles. It was 272 when I first received the car in May, 2013. After various firmware updates, that went down to 255. The last time I range charged (~1.5 months ago) i got 249, and then after sitting for 30 minutes jumped back to 255. I assume this was rebalancing. I'm waiting to see if I get the same jump now, but it's been 30 minutes already since charge completion.

 

[qwk]

I can almost guarantee that the next memo to hit the SC's will be that every car gets range charged for the entire time Tesla has the car. Tesla already does this on demo cars.

Let the whining begin!

 

[ChadS]

I agree that tesla should address the issue, but I don't see a point to getting worked up about it if they don't. We all know that communication is not their strong point, that is a shame but after years of complaining on these forums they have not changed so I think our collective peace of mind will be better if we accept that.

No other manufacturer has ever addressed this issue either. It has never been a big deal on any past car. It is an annoyance that can be upsetting to people unfamiliar with it, but experienced owners have given tips on how to deal with it many times in this thread and others, so until Tesla gives formal guidance we can all follow those tips. Jerry33 gave a good summary.

 

[roblab]

I feel that it is truly shocking for Tesla to not address this problem head on and be forthright about it. I want Tesla to do well but not at my expense.

Whoa! I have to say, lets find out what's going on here. If anyone used to get 300 miles and is now only getting 245, I have to ask, are you charging in ideal or EPA display? Many people used to display ideal miles and are now preferring to display the EPA range.

Winter driving also vastly changes the range calculation, because you are driving with heat, both to you and the battery, which uses lots of power, but gives you no range. Wait til summer to compare it to last summer's range.

It has already been stated that it is NORMAL for the batteries to drop for the first year, AND THEN it tapers off. You cannot extrapolate your first year's degradation into the next 4 or 5 years.

It has already been stated that the display is a calculation, WHICH HAS BEEN CHANGED.

It has already been stated that you cannot know your true range unless you drive the same course under the same conditions. There may be some here who do that, but most are just looking at a display of a calculation. Not necessarily reality.

With that in mind, I did a range charge on my car. I always display ideal miles. I used to have 300 miles of range displayed. Once I got 302. I can easily get over 300 miles on a charge, but that is driving style. I live up a mountain, which vastly affects my range calculation.

My charge this morning, after 18 months, with over 37,000 miles on my A battery, is 287. That is 5% degradation. I would expect another 5% in a few more years. Seems like this is expected. Of course, this is only one data point. I have driven down to zero a few times, and charged to full several times, but mostly it is charged to 80 - 90%. I have never done a "rebalance", and I suppose the software does that by itself.

If you are experiencing scary numbers, try doing your range charge in ideal mode. Your battery is guaranteed to give you 70% for the life of the guarantee, which in my case is 8 years, unlimited miles. If you truly have a bad battery, Tesla will replace it, but I am guessing that this is more a calculation problem.

Screaming about Tesla not fixing your problem does not fix the problem. Just remember, you will lose range, the range loss is guaranteed to not exceed 30%, so you're safe. Most of the problems are explainable, or Tesla will fix them. Again, You're safe.

Hope you find the problem.