Why is this question SO important to you? Is it a precursor to declaring the Avcon obsolete? When the day comes that there are more Roadsters than Avcon vehicles does it tip some scale?
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Fewer AVCON charging stations
- Thread starter TEG
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Why is this question SO important to you? Is it a precursor to declaring the Avcon obsolete? When the day comes that there are more Roadsters than Avcon vehicles does it tip some scale?
Heh... it's not particularly important to me personally. I was just curious if replacing Avcon stations with Tesla HPCs is a Pareto improvement or not. A helpful factor in making that determination is having an idea of the number of Avcon users still out there, which is why I asked. I asked a second time since a collection of pictures of different cars in history that used the Avcon connector doesn't really answer my question.
I don't believe it has been done. But I've been wrong before.
The AVCON is considered the most basic "charger" (in quotes, because these are not chargers, of course) we have. And it is why we're fighting to keep them. The Avcon can be converter to a 220V outlet that can then be used to charge *anything* - including the inductive cars like mine if you schlep your charger along with you and hook it to an adapter box. There are many people who think we should just be supplying 14-50 outlets everywhere to go one step even MORE basic. But for various reasons I don't think that's gonna fly.
That's a great question for which I don't have the answer.
But if you asked on the Ranger email list, I'll bet you can get your answer. Mine came with my truck, and I sold it with the truck.Not really. All you need is 30A. That's what I did the bulk of my charging on. A 30A breaker. Yes for a permanent install, it should be a 40A breaker to be up to code. You hurt nothing and make nothing more dangerous by using a 30A breaker. If anything, you are even being safer that way. And of course depending on what plug you have on the end of the thing, you may need to adapt to the outlet that's provided.
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Probably the only thing we can say for certain is that the number of AVCON cars will now decrease, and the number of Tesla/J1772 cars will be increasing. Please note that these new Telsa stations are really being considered "placeholders" for when the standard connector finally comes available.
I do believe that we'll be replacing some inductive chargers with Tesla chargers soon - if it hasn't yet happened. Once Tom gets on here, he'll be able to field these questions way better than I.
TEG said:
This sort of position - that you can ignore the code and pull current continuously through a circuit at the rated capacity of the breaker really seems wrong to me. I think the 80% rule is there for a reason, not just something to scoff at. Some of the home brew folks had been "experimenting" with the Avcons using variable current draw power supplies, and found that they could pull 40amps from some of the Avcons before the over-current protection kicked in or the circuit breaker blew. In a quest for quicker charging, just a turn of the dial away, they figured they could bend that safety margin and just do what seems to work. The problem is that what works then may not work when it gets hotter... Or it may slowly cook the EVSE or the breaker. I found some Avcons marked out of comission and later the problem reported was "burnt breaker". Not just tripped, but damaged and had to be replaced. Now we have Tesla adapters ready to draw 40amps through the Avcons again. Do people realize that it is a lot more than the level 2 current they were designed to provide?
http://www.cleanfuelconnection.com/tech_documents/ICS-200B Installation Guide.pdf
PFC Charger testimonials
I know you have way more experience with this kind of thing, so who am I to talk, right? But it still seems wrong. It seemed to me like people were doing 'experiments' on the public chargers, then complaining that they were unreliable. Then the places that maintained them got annoyed at having to reset or replace the breakers repeatedly.
If I built a Tesla to Avcon adapter (to plug a RangerEV into a Tesla HPC) should I 'try it out' on the public Tesla charge spots and see if it works?! (I wouldn't do that) That is basically what was done to the public Avcon stations.
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Um, I don't really consider that "cheap and lightweight". I bet it would cost hundreds of dollars. And takes two hands to carry easily.
I was thinking more along the lines of a simple connector adapter in the spirit of something like this:
Or even these:
I'm not advocating screwing with current draw on existing infrastructure. What I'm suggesting has nothing to do with that. The code has the 80% rule for *permanent* installations. The the main reason is so the breaker doesn't trip so darn often. The last place that I had a circuit installed, the difference between a 40A nad 30A circuit was... the breaker. The wire gauge was the same. The capability of the cuicuit was identical - except for the breaker. When I travel with my charger, I plug it into 30A circuits more often than any other size - because this is what electric dryers have. Before anything starts to melt, the breaker, of course, is supposed to protect the circuit. Again - I'm not talking about fooling with existing chargers. I'm just talking about plugging my chargers into an appropriate circuit. Again - the 80% rule is for permanent installations. There's no code against plugging in a 12A draw to a 12A 120V outlet, and there is no code against plugging in a 27A draw into a 30A circuit.
As I said - relative to all other chargers I've ever used for my cars, this one is cheap and light. Hundreds of dollars? Yes of course. That's cheap, my friend. New SPI's are $6,000 now.
Um, I don't really consider that "cheap and lightweight". I bet it would cost hundreds of dollars. And takes two hands to carry easily.
Guess what? Those adapters cost me more than the Ranger charger. Just the L6-30 ends are $25-$30 *each.* But anyway...
Hi Tom -
I too, would like to hear more about why the Avcon adapater boxes are not worth owning. At every major event where we have lots of cars, those boxes are almost always pressed into service. And as those inlets are limited, I hope that the folks who find no use for them put them back up for sale.
Yeah, my biggest problem was with people trying to see how much current they could pull through the EVI ICS-200s. Those PFC-50 chargers going through the EAA adapter box seemed to be easily capable of overloading the overcurrent protection in either the charge pedistal or the breaker behind it. Recently I had seen advice passed around suggesting that it was OK to plug the Roadster Foundtry 40amp cable into the EAA adapter and try to pull 40amps through the Avcon charge pedistals. As far as I know that is more current then they were designed to handle. Note, there was some optional higher current version, but as far as I know basically all of the public ICS-200s were 32amp versions with a 40amp breaker behind it.
My school of thought is that breakers and overcurrent protectors are not meant to be tripped except in cases where equipment failed, or someone did something wrong. I don't think it should be a 'normal' procedure to start loading up a circuit until something trips just to test what current load it can handle. For one, the protection circuits aren't always 100% reliable at tripping at the correct current, and another is that I think they wear out the more you set them off.
Also, your example of plugging the Ranger into a dryer outlet with a 30amp breaker sounds like abusing the breaker to me as well. In my experience if you pull full rated load through some breaker long enough it can do slow "cooking" of the breaker and cause it to stop offering proper protection.
Personally I would only ever plug my RangerEV into something that has either a 40 or 50 amp breaker behind it. And if I had to do mobile charging I would look for a NEMA14-50, not a NEMA10-30. I want to be "nice" to the wiring, overcurrent protection circuits, and circuit breakers in the circuit I am using.
The reasons for not buying the box that converts the old Avcon charger connector to a Tesla MC240 cable to fill a Roadster are that, it does not get used much since the Roadster goes very far on a charge, cost, weight, hassle, and that if you can get by without it for the next "few months" there will be many more Tesla charge stations available.
The usual reasons for not adapting to old technology. The the bad news that these new J connectors will probably change again in 10 years. Usually by the time a standard is agreed upon it's outdated the day it comes out and that is the day new comities are formed to replace it.
Gas pump nozzles haven't changed standards in a long time. NEMA5-15 and 14-50 haven't change in a long time either. Some standards can last. It is too bad that standards like NEMA14-50 don't offer pilot signals, finger-touch safety, and connect/disconnect cycles to be accepted as a mainstream EV charge interconnect.
Avcon inlet to 14-50 adapters
The main use of the Avcon inlet to 14-50 adapter would be road trips within public Avcon territory, by Roadster drivers who have some form of MC-240. I've seen reports of use in places like Santa Cruz, Monterey, San Luis Obispo, Santa Barbara, Malibu, Rohnert Park (near Santa Rosa), etc. There are other places like Truckee, Tahoe City, Auburn, where these adapters could be useful. For the driver who doesn't take such road trips, or who doesn't have access to some form of MC240 kit, this adapter would not be useful. True, some of these places will be getting Tesla charging stations in the next few months.
The main use of the Avcon inlet to 14-50 adapter would be road trips within public Avcon territory, by Roadster drivers who have some form of MC-240. I've seen reports of use in places like Santa Cruz, Monterey, San Luis Obispo, Santa Barbara, Malibu, Rohnert Park (near Santa Rosa), etc. There are other places like Truckee, Tahoe City, Auburn, where these adapters could be useful. For the driver who doesn't take such road trips, or who doesn't have access to some form of MC240 kit, this adapter would not be useful. True, some of these places will be getting Tesla charging stations in the next few months.
Correct. And after more than eight years of somewhat regularly charging from dryer circuits, I have *never* tripped a 30A breaker by charging any of my production EVs. Because none of them draws 30A.
I agree and I've not advocated that.
Charging a Ranger (or an EV1 or a Rav4EV or an S10) on a 30A circuit does not pull the fully-reated load of a 30A breaker. None of these chargers draws 30A. Trying to continuously pull 30A out of a 30A circuit would be frustrating at best, and foolish at worst. The chargers are all regulated below 30A.
Some of the things I do with EVs can be considered "on the edge." Charging them from a 30A circuit is not one of those edgy items. My plasma cutter can draw 37A, and I regularly, safely and legally plug it into my 40A circuit all the time. You are wise to only do what you are comfortable with doing. If you are one day otherwise stranded somewhere, your comfort level may adjust a bit.
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Well there is a big source of our "disconnect". I assumed that they did pull 32A. Aren't they considered "Level 2" charging equipment?
Everywhere I look about the Level 2 chargers shows 32A draw through 40AMP+ breaker.
PWP Web : EV Program - Charging Information
http://www.mass.gov/Eoca/docs/doer/charger1.pdf
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Here is a thought - perhaps those EAA Avcon converter boxes should have had something other than a NEMA14-50 on the side? Like maybe a NEMA10-30?
That way some people wouldn't assume they can draw 40 amps through them.
For example, Martin's Roadster adapter apparently sets the pilot signal for 40 amps when you put a NEMA14-50 cable into his box. If you used the NEMA10-30 cable then it would send a 24 amp pilot signal which would be more friendly to the ICS-200.
That way some people wouldn't assume they can draw 40 amps through them.
For example, Martin's Roadster adapter apparently sets the pilot signal for 40 amps when you put a NEMA14-50 cable into his box. If you used the NEMA10-30 cable then it would send a 24 amp pilot signal which would be more friendly to the ICS-200.
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