Definitely disagree wholeheartedly. Look at the 'official' forums on teslamotors.com as an example of less moderation. They're full of garbage and completely useless, especially when compared with TMC. I have no idea why anyone would think that was 'better.'
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Feature request: Self-moderated Threads
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Definitely disagree wholeheartedly. Look at the 'official' forums on teslamotors.com as an example of less moderation. They're full of garbage and completely useless, especially when compared with TMC. I have no idea why anyone would think that was 'better.'
bonnie
I play a nice person on twitter.
Lol. Like the official apple forum (and probably most other 'state run' joints), that's not a real forum and is thus an invalid data point for your argument.
Find a true enthusiast forum (= started and run by enthusiasts) that flourishes/grows with draconian rules like OP moderation in place and I'll buy you a model S.
"Self-moderated thread" is a misnomer. It would be percieved as a "formaly owned thread".
No one is ever completely impartial and objective, but having "third party" moderators is still less subjective than moderating my own thread, that i look at as something that is part of me. An hence when one is not clearly aligned with my thoughts, he is not aligned wih me and hence he is is at leat a part against me. Not all people can live with such reallity and would be very inclined to correct it. Rationalizations are always possible how something was offtopic, rude or whatever comes the closest. I was sent to snippines a few times, did not agree with it and did not like it but such is life. I don't want to have the hammer of moderation of my threads as i will think too much of using it and much less of topic itself.
on the long run, forums are good because of good content, not because of ontopicness, nonrudnes and politness. Moderation should be so sparse and invisible to not even be talked about. So, on this definition alone, moderation on this forum is a problem. This does not mean there is too litle, to much or not good enough. It means some users are not happy with forum politics. And as times go, patterns emerge.
No one is ever completely impartial and objective, but having "third party" moderators is still less subjective than moderating my own thread, that i look at as something that is part of me. An hence when one is not clearly aligned with my thoughts, he is not aligned wih me and hence he is is at leat a part against me. Not all people can live with such reallity and would be very inclined to correct it. Rationalizations are always possible how something was offtopic, rude or whatever comes the closest. I was sent to snippines a few times, did not agree with it and did not like it but such is life. I don't want to have the hammer of moderation of my threads as i will think too much of using it and much less of topic itself.
on the long run, forums are good because of good content, not because of ontopicness, nonrudnes and politness. Moderation should be so sparse and invisible to not even be talked about. So, on this definition alone, moderation on this forum is a problem. This does not mean there is too litle, to much or not good enough. It means some users are not happy with forum politics. And as times go, patterns emerge.
NigelM
Recovering Member
TMC was started in 2006 by enthusiasts and is still run by enthusiasts, and is moderated by volunteer enthusiasts btw; it now has over 1,000,000 posts, over 47,000 threads, over 28,000 members with over 5,000 active posters as of today.
Do I get to pick the color? ;-)
Not until you go back to your internet-for-noobs curriculum to figure out what OP means.
While we certainly encourage and welcome feedback of all kinds, it's safe to say that the site owners aren't interested in going this route.
NigelM
Recovering Member
Not until you go back to your internet-for-noobs curriculum to figure out what OP means.
Darn, was on my phone and mis-read you. Sorry, I booked an ophthalmologist appointment.
This was a good suggestion. I wish we had self-moderated threads besides normal threads. Self-moderated threads would have a special icon next to the thread title. This way, people who contribute to these threads would know beforehand that the thread was self-moderated.
I want this feature only because I'm tired of perfectly fine threads getting messed up by off-topic discussion. For example, in the following thread, the discussion has gone off-topic. This makes threads too messy. I have reported it but I'm not hopeful. I reported the same thread multiple times in the past and the moderator has done nothing. @wk057 would still be an active user if we had self-moderated threads.
Prediction Thread - "You Called It"
Also, being unable to edit opening messages of threads that you have started makes things worse. If I start threads, I know they might get messed up with off-topic discussions or personal arguments, which doesn't encourage me to start new threads but if I could edit opening messages, that would help to keep the thread relevant for longer. You are not giving me the tools I need to create quality content. I see that @DaveT has similar problems with the forum software.
I want this feature only because I'm tired of perfectly fine threads getting messed up by off-topic discussion. For example, in the following thread, the discussion has gone off-topic. This makes threads too messy. I have reported it but I'm not hopeful. I reported the same thread multiple times in the past and the moderator has done nothing. @wk057 would still be an active user if we had self-moderated threads.
Prediction Thread - "You Called It"
Also, being unable to edit opening messages of threads that you have started makes things worse. If I start threads, I know they might get messed up with off-topic discussions or personal arguments, which doesn't encourage me to start new threads but if I could edit opening messages, that would help to keep the thread relevant for longer. You are not giving me the tools I need to create quality content. I see that @DaveT has similar problems with the forum software.
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I still pop in now and then. Usually when someone sends me a link to something here, then I see my stacked up alerts and poke around a little.
This feature would definitely have given me some incentive to contribute more since I could be 100% assured that my threads would not veer off the deep end. Instead I've just been keeping most of my efforts to myself lately and posting some small updates on my own sites and conversing with folks on IRC and Hangouts.
However, the content to noise ratio here has risen exponentially over the past year, give or take. Administration definitely has lowered the bar for what is noise and what is not, perhaps due to lack of sufficient staff or other reasons. Regardless, the result is certainly the same. Combine that with the site overhaul which, IMO, was a net loss for the site on the feature and usability aspects, and the community is nothing like what it used to be or have continued to be.
The admins here also have little incentive to implement a feature like self-moderated threads (something that works quite successfully on even larger forums) as long as people continue to use the site and new people continue to come on board. Nothing wrong with that, and kudos to the admins for keeping the site going. But honestly, I've popped in here a bit since the switch to this horrendous forum software and I've seen basically nothing new to bridge the feature gap between this and the old forum setup... just a lot of minor style tweaks over the last 6 months or so.
Overall I've found it mostly useless to post any meaningful technical info here. If it doesn't get bogged down with noise in the thread it quickly gets buried and forgotten under the noise of other threads. I attempted to post some new technical info recently with my charger efficiency thread. It got a decent amount of views over the first day, and a couple of comments/questions over the next couple... then basically nothing since because it's buried under 100+ other threads, most of which have no substance at all. OK, not super interesting I suppose, but most telling is that the couple of people that asked me to post that data funny enough recently asked me if I ever posted it anywhere because they couldn't find it. When I told them I posted it on TMC they still couldn't find it and I had to dig the link out of my watched threads to pass it along. Self-moderation wouldn't help with this particular issue, but just further outlines why I don't bother anymore.
I do wish the site owners would do something to make this site more relevant for technical discussion, starting with something like self-moderated threads, but I'm not holding my breath.
This feature would definitely have given me some incentive to contribute more since I could be 100% assured that my threads would not veer off the deep end. Instead I've just been keeping most of my efforts to myself lately and posting some small updates on my own sites and conversing with folks on IRC and Hangouts.
However, the content to noise ratio here has risen exponentially over the past year, give or take. Administration definitely has lowered the bar for what is noise and what is not, perhaps due to lack of sufficient staff or other reasons. Regardless, the result is certainly the same. Combine that with the site overhaul which, IMO, was a net loss for the site on the feature and usability aspects, and the community is nothing like what it used to be or have continued to be.
The admins here also have little incentive to implement a feature like self-moderated threads (something that works quite successfully on even larger forums) as long as people continue to use the site and new people continue to come on board. Nothing wrong with that, and kudos to the admins for keeping the site going. But honestly, I've popped in here a bit since the switch to this horrendous forum software and I've seen basically nothing new to bridge the feature gap between this and the old forum setup... just a lot of minor style tweaks over the last 6 months or so.
Overall I've found it mostly useless to post any meaningful technical info here. If it doesn't get bogged down with noise in the thread it quickly gets buried and forgotten under the noise of other threads. I attempted to post some new technical info recently with my charger efficiency thread. It got a decent amount of views over the first day, and a couple of comments/questions over the next couple... then basically nothing since because it's buried under 100+ other threads, most of which have no substance at all. OK, not super interesting I suppose, but most telling is that the couple of people that asked me to post that data funny enough recently asked me if I ever posted it anywhere because they couldn't find it. When I told them I posted it on TMC they still couldn't find it and I had to dig the link out of my watched threads to pass it along. Self-moderation wouldn't help with this particular issue, but just further outlines why I don't bother anymore.
I do wish the site owners would do something to make this site more relevant for technical discussion, starting with something like self-moderated threads, but I'm not holding my breath.
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anticitizen13.7
Not posting at TMC after 9/17/2018
This is the inevitable consequence of Tesla going more and more mainstream. It's great for the company that the Tesla brand is expanding its audience beyond car enthusiasts and hackers, but as the community becomes less tech-oriented, the interest in tech related threads becomes a much smaller % of what it was in the past.
I think this suggestion makes absolute sense for someone coming from a contributorship/meritocracy background. For a forum that revolves around content and information creation (instead of opinion sharing), self-moderation can do wonders.
For opinion sharing, well, there things become tricky - especially if the forum has overriding biases running things. But for a very information based forum self-moderation can really help keep topics on the information mission.
One thing I always missed on TMC was that there really wasn't that much information-seeking and hashing mentality here. There was some other overriding mentality. It has gotten better, though. With new voices like @verygreen and @lunitiks there are some superb information gathering threads on TMC like this: AP2.0 Cameras: Capabilities and Limitations? That's almost 50 pages of drama-free information gathering. An excellent thread.
I would give @lunitiks moderation powers for that thread any day of the week. Though, interstingly, they are not needed on that sub-forum much. It doesn't seem to attract anyone but those with the information gathering mindset!
I can see what @wk057 is missing, anyway.
For opinion sharing, well, there things become tricky - especially if the forum has overriding biases running things. But for a very information based forum self-moderation can really help keep topics on the information mission.
One thing I always missed on TMC was that there really wasn't that much information-seeking and hashing mentality here. There was some other overriding mentality. It has gotten better, though. With new voices like @verygreen and @lunitiks there are some superb information gathering threads on TMC like this: AP2.0 Cameras: Capabilities and Limitations? That's almost 50 pages of drama-free information gathering. An excellent thread.
I would give @lunitiks moderation powers for that thread any day of the week. Though, interstingly, they are not needed on that sub-forum much. It doesn't seem to attract anyone but those with the information gathering mindset!
I can see what @wk057 is missing, anyway.
Our site only uses that feature for vendor sub-forums.
The vendor basically has mod privileges in that forum and that forum only. This was to keep vendors from fighting.
I can see where it would be handy for tech content as well.
Perhaps a feature 'switch' where a Tech Thread can have no replies except by the author. People with feedback would have to PM the author.
The vendor basically has mod privileges in that forum and that forum only. This was to keep vendors from fighting.
I can see where it would be handy for tech content as well.
Perhaps a feature 'switch' where a Tech Thread can have no replies except by the author. People with feedback would have to PM the author.
bonnie
I play a nice person on twitter.
I can see how self-moderating would lower the volunteer moderators' workload. I'd expand the tech thread self-moderating privileges beyond what you suggest - but if abused (ie, contrary opinions being deleted), then I think the forum administration could (and should) revoke self-moderating rights for an individual.
I still wonder if the self-moderating self-moderation might work. I mean, people tuning out from posters who become known as bad self-moderators, hence causing a virtuous circle?
It would be an interesting social experiment. And I say that as someone who'd expect being moderated a lot more!
There's simply no evidence that's true. Its a theory based on "You know, the internet really pisses me off sometimes and dammit something must me done about it!!!11!1!!11". I get it, the internet pisses me off too...but my hubris stops short of imagining a solution that controls the community with rules that don't favor the individual.
In fact the concepts of hard information and opinions in a webforum are explicitly linked. Users are not automatons looking for data, they're people looking for a community. They're looking to connect with like minded folks. Just as in real life they're interested in what others have to say, even if there's the occasional bad apple. It doesn't matter if its a small group of hyper focused enthusiasts, or a growing and mainstream-trending collection of occasional readers. People aren't just here for the information, and they'll leave if that's all they can get. That people are all looking for different ratios of data vs connections is what makes a community flourish, not what makes a community flounder.
Just as in real life--and even more so due to its amazing ability to empowering the individual over the authority--the great democratic state of the internet will ultimately squash autocratic rule like a bunny getting squashed by a stack of pancakes.
Well formulated response, @bxr140, thank you for that.
A couple of thoughts:
You are right, I have no evidence, this is my personal hunch and based in history in various meritocracy types of surroundings. For example, I do believe it would work on TMC's Autonomous Vehicles sub-forum. That seems to attract such a single-minded expert-type of audience, where it might well work in those instances where threads need some maintenance (just now there is a point where self-moderating ability to move a few posts would be welcomed by all I guess, though I understand @wk057's idea is not about moving posts). In these cases I feel the self-moderation could be more about housekeeping ability, than about wielding power against someone?
As for the community part, I still do have to wonder if self-moderation isn't the ultimate democratic state. Everyone can self-moderate and everyone can choose whose self-moderation they join - or not. If someone gets a reputation for a certain type of self-moderation, that will limit their audience. Some may like that and get just the bubble they want, but where's the harm in that necessarily - as long as the forum also offers non-moderated as well as self-moderated by others content.
A couple of thoughts:
You are right, I have no evidence, this is my personal hunch and based in history in various meritocracy types of surroundings. For example, I do believe it would work on TMC's Autonomous Vehicles sub-forum. That seems to attract such a single-minded expert-type of audience, where it might well work in those instances where threads need some maintenance (just now there is a point where self-moderating ability to move a few posts would be welcomed by all I guess, though I understand @wk057's idea is not about moving posts). In these cases I feel the self-moderation could be more about housekeeping ability, than about wielding power against someone?
As for the community part, I still do have to wonder if self-moderation isn't the ultimate democratic state. Everyone can self-moderate and everyone can choose whose self-moderation they join - or not. If someone gets a reputation for a certain type of self-moderation, that will limit their audience. Some may like that and get just the bubble they want, but where's the harm in that necessarily - as long as the forum also offers non-moderated as well as self-moderated by others content.
TaoJones
Beyond Driven
The less moderation, the better, aside from obvious spam and blatant TOS violations - much of which can be autofiltered.
Contrary to a couple of posts in this thread from years ago, the Tesla.com fora remain lightly moderated, quite useful, and are anything but a mess. In fact, they remain civil in part because there are no/few boundaries or cliques to impress.
See the supercharger tips thread as an example.
There is one feature at tesla.com that is particularly well-received - the owners-only feature for threads. Can't do that here without effort.
In any event, there's no harm in trying self-moderation for threads for a trial period of 90 days with polling before and after as one means of measurement.
As TMC grows, it will find that there will be no way for the small club of moderators to keep up. So training the community to self-moderate sooner rather than later would be a useful exercise for both sides - those who will have to learn how to handle the additional power, and those who will have to learn to handle giving up some.
Sounds like a healthy exercise to me. And whether it fails or succeeds in 90 days, one side will get to say I told you so.
Same as it ever was.
Also, new moderators could be cherry-picked from particularly well-managed threads. So there's that.
Contrary to a couple of posts in this thread from years ago, the Tesla.com fora remain lightly moderated, quite useful, and are anything but a mess. In fact, they remain civil in part because there are no/few boundaries or cliques to impress.
See the supercharger tips thread as an example.
There is one feature at tesla.com that is particularly well-received - the owners-only feature for threads. Can't do that here without effort.
In any event, there's no harm in trying self-moderation for threads for a trial period of 90 days with polling before and after as one means of measurement.
As TMC grows, it will find that there will be no way for the small club of moderators to keep up. So training the community to self-moderate sooner rather than later would be a useful exercise for both sides - those who will have to learn how to handle the additional power, and those who will have to learn to handle giving up some.
Sounds like a healthy exercise to me. And whether it fails or succeeds in 90 days, one side will get to say I told you so.
Same as it ever was
.Also, new moderators could be cherry-picked from particularly well-managed threads. So there's that.
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