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Extended Service Agreements No Longer Transferable?

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Because they want the older cars off of warranty ESA or otherwise.
Most likely the case. Presumably they've determined that warranty coverage is costing them a fortune and an easy way to start mitigating that liability is by limiting the service agreements. It has a side-benefit of propping up their own CPO program, which is likely also costing them a fair bit to maintain.
 
I still believe what I wrote back in post #28... i.e. to sell more new cars. My side thoughts sort of supporting that include (even though there are huge flaws from my POV if any of them are true):

  • Tesla does not make money from service (but as I've said, perhaps they should as it would incent them to act differently, and frankly better to owners) so indirectly Tesla does not care as much about longer-term ownership as say other mfgrs do that love to sell dealer service and parts to really help their bottom line. Tesla is clearly not as focused on long-term customer sat with things they can delay or not provide, e.g. Think about software bugs that have not been corrected, only basic media player and Nav functions that have seen no significant enhancements for MX or since MS was introduced, etc..
  • Newer builds may have better reliability than the first MS off the line, but that says nothing about the real costs Tesla is now projecting to cover warranty and extended warranty costs some 3 years into the game with real numbers and costs. Remember, Elon has now said 2016 will generate profit, so IMHO he's gonna cut every place he can to make that number or Wall Street will kill Tesla by next year this time. Tesla also was sort of boxed-in ... They couldn't raise the cost of extended warranty too much from what it was or that would have sent a very clear signal this problem exists, but increasing it just a bit as they did, looks like a price increase, not a big warning gong going off -- even if it didn't really fix their internal problem.
  • The longer a person owns a Tesla with any sort of warranty the longer Tesla gets to keep dealing with those owners and incurring indirect costs for tech support, software deliveries, etc... So, if extended warranties are limited to only original owners, that reduces out-year costs by selling less extended warranties.
  • Tesla does not appear to have really focused on things like residual value of MS as it was initially created, say like Lexus did as one of their primary objectives when they first created their brand and created the whole CPO environment for the industry... So as the reality is setting in with some fairly high costs of initial ownership for MS compared to some other luxury brands, and now M3 comes into play at a $35K entry price point, I wonder what correlation there may be in Tesla's view between all that... Difficult to say as none of us have enough facts...
  • Only by selling new cars is there revenue to pay for infrastructure build out... New and ongoing Supercharger network, web sites, tech support lines, people and machines needed to design and build M3. If early estimates were off and insufficient dollars were set aside to accomplish all that from each sale, the only way to get more cash so they can pay what must be paid and still generate a profit is build and sell more cars. Since Service is not a profit center, incidental Tesla Shop sales will never be enough to offset what is likely required and I can't think of anything else in Tesla's business model to generate real revenue to offset costs except selling NEW cars.

You make some good points.
 
CPO warranties vary between manufacturers.

- A CPO Porsche warranty can be transferred between private parties but not transferrable if traded or sold to a non Porsche dealer. Can even be negated if Porsche dealer takes it on trade.
- CPO BMW warranty can be transferred between private parties and dealers last I checked.
- Audi Premium Protection warranty can only be bought if car has less than 35K miles. Prices vary dramatically between dealers.
- Bought an extend warranty for an MB SL55 AMG. Used it once and sold the car after 14 months- received a check for pro-rated amount.
- Fidelity is one of the last companies writing extended warranties. Even Costco dropped their plan about 2 years ago.
- Carmax still offers a decent extended warranty on their cars.

Usually a third party extended warranty can be cancelled or transferred. If cancelled the original purchaser receives a check for the pro-rated balance.

I've done all of the above with Porsche, BMW, MB and Audi and agree it's a huge selling point on higher end cars.
- Sold a used Porsche turbo (61K miles) with 10 months remaining on the CPO warranty to a private buyer. Warranty transferred with no transfer fees. This made the car much more attractive to buyers.
- Purchased a used 2007 Audi (33K miles) and bought a 4 year extended warranty for about $4K. Kept it one year in which time it accrued $6K worth of repairs. Out of pocket expense to me was $200 - not counting warranty for one year. Sold it to a private party who didn't want the warranty and received a check back from warranty company for ~$3K

I'm not sure why Tesla doesn't seem to be following any of these types of plans. It would make a lot of sense but maybe they don't make as much $$ as normal extended warranties and the repairs might very costly. From what I read on these forums, waiting 2+ months for a part is not uncommon.
 
...If reliability was getting better, the ESA would provide a profit for Tesla. Something smells bad....
That's right.

I spent most of my career running different parts of what became a really big software and hardware services business for a big name global company you'd recognize. The software and hardware business units who were incented to develop and sell product, wanted us to deliver post-sales support as cheap as we could since our warranty recovery costs went back against the cost of their product; OTOH our mission to the shareholder was also to generate profit from our "extended warranties" and service agreements by creating T&C that balanced our risk (it's similar to what insurance companies do setting rates) with what customers would pay (yes, we needed to maximize profit) while ensuring we delivered the best customer sat so customers would renew their agreement with us or in the bigger corporate picture, buy the next product from our company that hopefully started the cycle over again. It was a huge juggling act serving both masters so-to-speak, but IMHO probably the right way to do it if you care about product sales AND maximizing longer-term corporate profitability. The first couple years when I was starting up the software support business, we didn't have a lot of stats on the true costs to support each individual product, so we had to take some large swags at initial pricing and how we bundled products into logical sets for both the customers and ourselves -- fortunately I had 100's of products my team supported, so while some cost me an arm and a leg and I lost my shorts on them until our team could get products fixed back with those product divisions to reduce future failures that cost me more money than we collected to support the customers, others were good money making up for it. It took me several years to push prices up in certain problem areas, while maintaining or even reducing prices in others based on my costs and customer demographics in terms of what they were and were not buying -- again, trying to balance new product sales with loyalty and the customers that wanted to hang onto older products and just keep getting support on them seemingly forever (which we eventually priced long-term support in a way to help them justify buying the new product vs paying for really-expensive-for-us-to-provide support on something that had only a few customers demanding it).

How much of that can you draw parallels to in this thread? :)

Tesla only has 3 products thus far, and what, 100,000 units to deal with ...and a much smaller number than that, that have really purchased, or will purchase, an extended warranty or service agreement. It's got to have been even harder for Tesla to have had early confidence when that first Roadster and MS hit the streets estimating actual support and development costs they have now seen and can project from, or try to balance good and bad profitability across 3 products -- especially with the very optimistic and public, often times very early stake-in-the-ground approach Elon has taken (and part of why so many of us appreciate what he's trying to accomplish, yet his team probably hates it when he Tweets something out-of-the-blue, having to then try and meet his perhaps unrealistic objective).

If you think about how Tesla is operating, again, they only really care about selling new cars. Nothing else matters to them at present, but as I've suggested in other threads, from my experience that strategy will eventually catch up with them if Customer Sat goes down with existing buyers, it will ripple causing less future sales... Not everyone buying a M3, or even future MS and MX as the volume expands, is an early enthusiast ready to risk $100K on a dream. We'll have to see if the rumblings of even some of the early adopters here on TMC expressing concern today over a number of Tesla practices or deficiencies is perhaps an early alarm supporting my suspicion. I only hope Tesla is listening somewhere and not operating only in a futuristic (and what IMHO would be an unrealistic long-term) vacuum.

FWIW, my general approach with terms was, if a customer paid per-incident after warranty, it cost an awful lot of money and was via T&C on a best-efforts basis in-part because I could not guarantee I'd have parts or developers that could open up old code somewhere in the world for everything we ever made, nor could I plan for it and guarantee service levels, except in very broad terms -- and as we told all customers, we wanted them to lock in a longer term agreement that allowed me to staff and set up infrastructure to support them the way we really should; if a customer paid month-to-month, terms could change month-to-month as could price but it was almost always better for the customer than going per-incident; if a customer wanted to lock in a price, I would do that for a limited number of years (based in-part on product age), lock in terms for that same duration, and generally give them some sort of discount -- sometimes as low as just the cost of money was to me.
 
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Tbone-That is exactly correct, and if I could add this bit of information: The new ESA was actual changed during the forum outage last week, even though the date shown on the new ESA says "November 2015". They post-dated it when they replaced it on the tesla motors website last week. I have both versions saved in my dropbox, and the new version has more limitations and no transferrability.

Wow ColdRauv, are you sure about that??

I'm no attorney so can't say whether or not it's legal... BUT if Tesla really did that - changed the ESA (without notice) in early February 2016, but posted the "new" ESA backdated to November, to make it seem to be a change from months ago - that looks and smells bad IMO.

Is there anyone out there that can prove this, e.g. can show they bought their ESA in Dec 2015 but that their wording is the "old" (transferrable) variety?

I'm taking delivery in a week and plan to buy the ESA right up front, to avoid future price increases or additional detrimental changes going forward, as I do plan to keep this car long-term (8 years). Figured that I missed owing the preferred plan by several months. I guess I really missed out by a couple of weeks if you're correct. Certainly would have moved up my purchase, had I known.
 
They build a brand name and then segregate the service and extended warrant to original owner - why?

If reliability was getting better, the ESA would provide a profit for Tesla. Something smells bad....

Even if reliability ends up being bad why not price the ESA warranty accordingly? If someone is not the original owner then perhaps charge $5,000 and add a stipulation that the warranty has to be purchased before the factory warranty runs out. Why is that so hard?

My point is that many risk averse customers when it comes to huge repair bills would much rather pay a set amount for a warranty just to have the comfort of knowing if anything goes wrong it is covered. Those same customers are going to be really unhappy and will find their ownership experiences ruined if they end up having absurdly high repair bills out of warranty.

With Tesla what really concerns me about owning a car out of warranty is there is no other game in town. If a door handle stops working out of warranty they may say it costs $1,000 or $1,300 or $2,000 or whatever and you have to suck it up and pay or have a non functioning door. There is no independent place where you can take your car to. If out of warranty a door handle stopped working and the quoted bill to repair was $1,300 I'd feel ripped off and perhaps so would other customers as well worse yet if 6 months later another one stops working is that another $1,300? I would not want to be in that situation and rather pay a set price to be covered.

Tesla can get ahead of this impending situation by coming out with an Extended Warranty option at a price that makes sense to them. Horror stories of sticker shock for out of warranty repairs will cause unnecessary depreciation and make these cars a lot harder to sell private party.
 
This is my understanding:

Legally, they are two different things but for the purpose of servicing, they are identical.

"Warranty" is stricter and gives consumers more protection.

"Extended Service" is an agreement which does not need stricter warranty laws.
More precisely, the factory warranty is governed by consumer law. The ESA is a CONTRACT that is governed by contract law. There are virtually no consumer protections, other than the plain language of the contract, which is why I've always harped on the issue that the ESA requires all maintenance to be done according to recommendations. Warranty law prohibits manufacturers from denying coverage for merely not following maintenance requirements, which is why the Elon blog was really not worth the electrons it took to render. He magnanimously proclaimed you didn't need the periodic service to maintain the warranty, which of course was the law anyway. Notably, however, he did NOT make such a proclamation regarding the ESA terms.
 
You know, I think this issue puts the final nail in the coffin for Tesla. I'm very glad I leased now and would not feel good about purchasing a Tesla today. The debacle of the X roll out. The lack of improvement on selling parts. The way they handle salvage cars. Lack of improvement on $600 inspection cost and policy. Lack of improvement on basic functions of software - like almost none in the year since I got the car - and it seems to have more issues with 7.1.

I mean would anybody buy a Tesla if the germans had a similar car with a similar charging network? Since we know they can do it and they've now been pushed to do it, it is only a matter of time. How can Tesla survive if run so poorly?

And it is true, how can Tesla survive with such a strong US dollar, low oil prices, and manufacturing in a high cost area? It could when everyone else was asleep but they are slowly waking up.
 
Very well summarized - charge for the service!

Even if reliability ends up being bad why not price the ESA warranty accordingly? If someone is not the original owner then perhaps charge $5,000 and add a stipulation that the warranty has to be purchased before the factory warranty runs out. Why is that so hard?

My point is that many risk averse customers when it comes to huge repair bills would much rather pay a set amount for a warranty just to have the comfort of knowing if anything goes wrong it is covered. Those same customers are going to be really unhappy and will find their ownership experiences ruined if they end up having absurdly high repair bills out of warranty.

With Tesla what really concerns me about owning a car out of warranty is there is no other game in town. If a door handle stops working out of warranty they may say it costs $1,000 or $1,300 or $2,000 or whatever and you have to suck it up and pay or have a non functioning door. There is no independent place where you can take your car to. If out of warranty a door handle stopped working and the quoted bill to repair was $1,300 I'd feel ripped off and perhaps so would other customers as well worse yet if 6 months later another one stops working is that another $1,300? I would not want to be in that situation and rather pay a set price to be covered.

Tesla can get ahead of this impending situation by coming out with an Extended Warranty option at a price that makes sense to them. Horror stories of sticker shock for out of warranty repairs will cause unnecessary depreciation and make these cars a lot harder to sell private party.
 
Even if reliability ends up being bad why not price the ESA warranty accordingly? If someone is not the original owner then perhaps charge $5,000 and add a stipulation that the warranty has to be purchased before the factory warranty runs out. Why is that so hard?

My point is that many risk averse customers when it comes to huge repair bills would much rather pay a set amount for a warranty just to have the comfort of knowing if anything goes wrong it is covered. Those same customers are going to be really unhappy and will find their ownership experiences ruined if they end up having absurdly high repair bills out of warranty.

With Tesla what really concerns me about owning a car out of warranty is there is no other game in town. If a door handle stops working out of warranty they may say it costs $1,000 or $1,300 or $2,000 or whatever and you have to suck it up and pay or have a non functioning door. There is no independent place where you can take your car to. If out of warranty a door handle stopped working and the quoted bill to repair was $1,300 I'd feel ripped off and perhaps so would other customers as well worse yet if 6 months later another one stops working is that another $1,300? I would not want to be in that situation and rather pay a set price to be covered.

Tesla can get ahead of this impending situation by coming out with an Extended Warranty option at a price that makes sense to them. Horror stories of sticker shock for out of warranty repairs will cause unnecessary depreciation and make these cars a lot harder to sell private party.

I don't disagree with the need, and I am not supporting what Tesla has done, but IMHO the issue is likely two-fold:

  1. If the price of the agreement is too high, it sends a message to potential owners of new vehicles that reliability and/or price of parts is outta-sight which may reduce some number of future sales especially as we exit the early-adopter cash-rich buyer phase -- especially owners that want to keep their car beyond 4 years or 50K miles; Some owners like me that want to keep a vehicle 6-7 years will add the price of that agreement to the price for the vehicle and it may be enough to throw out the new car purchase in the first place; and while some owners may pay for an over-the-top priced agreement, as you say, it will tank residual value for all vehicles that don't have the agreements when they exit basic warranty. Remember, Tesla isn't selling key (VIN-numbered) parts to anyone except their own body shops, there are no 3rd parties making parts of any substance, and from posts here on TMC, Tesla isn't exactly interested in selling other parts to people in a timely manner, and in all States but one, there are no service manuals, so anyone thinking they can affordably service a Tesla themselves post-warranty is barking up a tree.
  2. As I said earlier, moving the price point up too quickly will send the message that Tesla underestimated BASIC WARRANTY costs and put more pressure on them as to if they have sufficient cash to deal with today's needs as well as investments they must continue to make building-out infrastructure as the fleet grows and in preparation for M3. How many of us will be happy e.g. if Tesla doesn't dramatically expand the Supercharger network before M3 begins shipping, assuming M3 makes use of Superchargers -- especially if it's free access like Roadster, MS and MX enjoy? Elon has successfully gotten Wall Street off his back on this cash point for the time being, but I bet he doesn't want it to come back -- especially with his latest statement that Tesla will turn a profit in 2016.
 
Tbone-

I can't post the actual PDF files. It hasn't been discussed yet (or I missed it), but the pre-paid 4-year service plan (NOT the ESA) increased from $1900 to $2150. I was about to pull the trigger on the online purchase, but I wanted to wait until it was on my next credit card billing cycle, and now I cannot purchase it online and the cost went up. Rats.
 
More precisely, the factory warranty is governed by consumer law. The ESA is a CONTRACT that is governed by contract law. There are virtually no consumer protections, other than the plain language of the contract, which is why I've always harped on the issue that the ESA requires all maintenance to be done according to recommendations. Warranty law prohibits manufacturers from denying coverage for merely not following maintenance requirements, which is why the Elon blog was really not worth the electrons it took to render. He magnanimously proclaimed you didn't need the periodic service to maintain the warranty, which of course was the law anyway. Notably, however, he did NOT make such a proclamation regarding the ESA terms.

Excellent points and I have always agreed with you in that we should go with what is on the contract and if the contract language is draconian, that is an indication on how they want the contract implemented. And they somehow managed to make that draconian ESA warranty even worse.

Also agree that the whole bit about "service" being "optional" haze zero meaning or relevance after they tied "servicing" to the ESA, residual value guarantee, leasing, and other provisions. This is especially bad that the minor service that essentially entails a key fob battery, wiper blades, and a cabin air filter with a tire rotation that barely comes to $100 is marked up to $400.
 
More precisely, the factory warranty is governed by consumer law. The ESA is a CONTRACT that is governed by contract law. There are virtually no consumer protections, other than the plain language of the contract, which is why I've always harped on the issue that the ESA requires all maintenance to be done according to recommendations. Warranty law prohibits manufacturers from denying coverage for merely not following maintenance requirements, which is why the Elon blog was really not worth the electrons it took to render. He magnanimously proclaimed you didn't need the periodic service to maintain the warranty, which of course was the law anyway. Notably, however, he did NOT make such a proclamation regarding the ESA terms.

Page 134 calls out the maintenance requirements. It includes battery coolant at 5 year intervals or 62K miles(this has changed to from being 4 years with no mileage limit) and brake fluid to every two years or 25K miles (this has changed from 3 years with no mileage limit). A bunch of daily checks and monthly checks which any owner can perform.

In addition
"Rotate the tires every 5000 miles (8000 km),maintain the correct tire pressures, and takeModel S to Tesla at the regularly scheduledmaintenance intervals of every 12 months, orevery 12,500 miles (20,000 km), whichevercomes first. It is also important to perform thedaily and monthly checks described below.Model S must be serviced by Tesla-certifiedtechnicians. Damages or failures caused bymaintenance or repairs performed by nonTeslacertified technicians are not covered bythe warranty."

But that part in bold does not specify services to be performed and does not say that it is for maintenance every 12,500 miles. It's a "maintenance interval" without any specified services to be performed. We've been back and fourth on this. I still stand by my belief that the ESA can't be invalidated unless you fail to perform the the maintenance as specified in the maintenance schedule.

Has anyone yet been denied ESA coverage that failed to pay their protection racket money?

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David_Cary;1368012 I mean would anybody buy a Tesla if the germans had a similar car with a similar charging network?[/QUOTE said:
That's the key part. Tesla has such a huge head start in the charging infrastructure it's hard to imagine that any car company is going to catch up anytime soon.
 
Warranty law prohibits manufacturers from denying coverage for merely not following maintenance requirements, which is why the Elon blog was really not worth the electrons it took to render. He magnanimously proclaimed you didn't need the periodic service to maintain the warranty, which of course was the law anyway.
I am pretty sure this is false, as last time this was discussed the applicable law was looked up. What Tesla can't do is deny warranty for not getting their service plan (or requiring owner to only use Tesla's service for maintenance). This is covered under the "tie-in sales" provision. However, it is definitely allowed for a manufacturer to deny warranty for not following maintenance requirements. Say for example someone never changes their oil; manufacturer isn't going to responsible for damage to the engine from that.
https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/business-center/guidance/businesspersons-guide-federal-warranty-law
 
I am pretty sure this is false, as last time this was discussed the applicable law was looked up. What Tesla can't do is deny warranty for not getting their service plan (or requiring owner to only use Tesla's service for maintenance). This is covered under the "tie-in sales" provision. However, it is definitely allowed for a manufacturer to deny warranty for not following maintenance requirements. Say for example someone never changes their oil; manufacturer isn't going to responsible for damage to the engine from that.
https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/business-center/guidance/businesspersons-guide-federal-warranty-law

All true. The part about denying warranty for an engine failure due to not changing the oil is not technically true but in practicality it is. The burden of proof if the engine fails is not on the manufacturer like it is with modifications, so a manufacturer can say your engine failed(like an internally lubricated) part for not changing the oil.

However, it's an unrelated component to lubrication, like an ignition coil going out, they couldn't deny warranty coverage because you didn't change your oil.
 
All true. The part about denying warranty for an engine failure due to not changing the oil is not technically true but in practicality it is. The burden of proof if the engine fails is not on the manufacturer like it is with modifications, so a manufacturer can say your engine failed(like an internally lubricated) part for not changing the oil.

However, it's an unrelated component to lubrication, like an ignition coil going out, they couldn't deny warranty coverage because you didn't change your oil.
Yes, they still need to have reasonable justification that the cause of the failure of that component was likely from your lack of maintenance, but they are allowed to deny warranty for maintenance reasons. So what Tesla did in saying "no maintenance required" for warranty coverage is something significant that is not already covered by the warranty law.

Every car warranty out there will have a provision that damage or failure from lack of maintenance is not covered. For example the Leaf warranty:
Any damage or failure resulting from a failure to have these required services performed, or that could have been avoided had these services been performed, is not covered under warranty.
https://owners.nissanusa.com/conten...ides/LEAF/2013/2013-LEAF-warranty-booklet.pdf
 
\. This is especially bad that the minor service that essentially entails a key fob battery, wiper blades, and a cabin air filter with a tire rotation that barely comes to $100 is marked up to $400.

Would you PLEASE stop posting this FUD.

It's simply not true, as I've pointed out to you several times already. There is much more that happens during the inspection that just batteries and wipers, and I don't know why you continue to spread this nonsense. If it's not worth it to you, fine. But you keep broadcasting this like it's fact.