Europe: Future Charging for Model S 1-phase or 3-phase? (Part 2)

[Bipo]

What if Tesla puts a Combo2 plug in the EU Model S? It can manage up to 250 A (enough for SC) and also three-phase up to 63 A (or 1-ph up to 80 A). Even more, it will became the standard car-side EV plug in the EU. German automakers have confirmed it and VW e-Up! will have one.

Remember that the side position red lights are not compulsory in the EU, so there's enough space to fit the big Combo2 in the side of Model S taillights.

 

[jkirkebo]

The exact spec of the connector is uncertain - it has been stated that superchargers support up to 120kW for future cars, but current cars are limited to 90kW (and 90kW may be the power at the input of the charger rather than actually delivered to the car). However, whatever the ultimate limit, current cars have been seen charging at over 210A - 50% more than Mennenkes "DC-Mid" and even marginally more than 'DC-High".

There have been pictures of people getting close to 250A at the SuperCharger. 120kW is probably for a future car with a higher voltage battery. 120.000/250=480V which seems plausible given that most fast chargers top out at 500V.

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What if Tesla puts a Combo2 plug in the EU Model S? It can manage up to 250 A (enough for SC) and also three-phase up to 63 A (or 1-ph up to 80 A). Even more, it will became the standard car-side EV plug in the EU. German automakers have confirmed it and VW e-Up! will have one.

They'd have to combine DC-high (200A) and DC-low (70A) or DC-mid (140A) to get 250A capability. I don't know if that's supported in the standard.

It's probably easier to put a Mennekes inlet on one side for 3ph charging and a Tesla inlet on the other side for SC.

 

[arg]

There have been pictures of people getting close to 250A at the SuperCharger. 120kW is probably for a future car with a higher voltage battery. 120.000/250=480V which seems plausible given that most fast chargers top out at 500V.

I don't think the superchargers go up to 500V - that photo of the rating plate says it only goes to 410V. The 210A in that photo probably means it's the 9-module version (90kW) rather than the 12-module (120kW) used at sites with pairs of charging bays off one charger. Probably the statement about future cars and 120kW implies the connector can go to 300A - or maybe it doesn't mean anything at all, just referencing the fact that the chargers are rated to 120kW.

 

[qwk]

I don't think that free superchergers are going to happen in Europe. Everyone whined about Tesla using superchargers in Europe instead of 3 phase because deployment would take too long. Now that Europe gets a 3 phase Mennekes socket, everyone wants free Tesla superchargers? Lol

Probably not going to happen.

 

[LuckyLuke]

Oh it will happen. Pricing page explicitly mentions free supercharging:
http://www.teslamotors.com/nl_NL/models/options

Tesla werkt aan de ontwikkeling van een netwerk van Superchargers langs de drukste wegen van Europa. Met Superchargers kunnen reizigers hun auto half opladen in ongeveer een half uur. Omvat alle hardware, software, testen en onbeperkte gratis oplaadbeurten in alle Supercharger-punten.

Google translate since I'm lazy:

Tesla is developing a network of Superchargers along the busiest roads of Europe. With Superchargers travelers can recharge their cars in about half an hour. Includes all hardware, software, testing and unlimited free recharges in all Supercharger points.

 

[Bipo]

But the web also includes the 10 kW charger and the option of dual charger at 20 kW, and that doesn't make sense with a three-phase charger. IMHO, they just translated the American web and changed USA for Europe in that paragraph.

 

[LuckyLuke]

Time will tell, but you will see that your assumption was wrong. Tesla people confirmed several times the availability of supercharging in Europe. Why else would they calculate and include the optional 60kWh supercharging price on all 10 country specific options&pricing page?

 

[dpeilow]

^ No reason why they can't have a 10kW three phase charger that plugs into 11kW 16A outlets but doesn't use all of it.

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The Clipper creek charger and the J1772 spec in general goes to 20kW. But I guess it's kind of OT since I'm referring mostly to the US application (where 3-phase isn't really an option). As I understand 3-phase is widespread in the UK and Europe, so slow single phase charging isn't really an issue (as long as your house has 3-phase available and most higher power public charging stations are 3-phase).

There are many misconceptions that keep getting brought up so please let's put them to bed, in case they confuse Tesla's engineers.

- Three phase is commonplace in Europe but not in every building. There's roughly a split in domestic availability between Ireland, UK, France, Spain, Italy on the single phase side and Netherlands, Germany, Switzerland, Scandanavia, Eastern Europe on the three phase side. For a full overnight charge at home, the former group would charge at 32A 1P and the latter 16A 3P.

- Commercial sites generally have three phase or would not balk at the £1-2000 to have it installed.

- There are already hundreds of 32A, 7kW single phase public charging sites in the UK alone. Model S must support this.

- There are many 10s of legacy Roadster HPCs running at 64A or 70A in Europe where enough single phase capacity was found. It would be nice to continue to have access to those (even with a plug switch).

- There are now 32A, 22kW three phase sites popping up in public car parks in the UK and across Europe. There are 63A, 43kW three phase sites appearing in highway service stations - so far the latter are all hard wired with the Type 2 plug on the end.


In summary, Model S must support 32A for both single and three phase as a minimum. Preferably it would support 63A on both too (the Mennekes / Type 2 plug supports 63A three phase and 70A single phase).


The DC situation is anyone's guess. There are ~40 CHAdeMOs in the UK with more on the way. Half are in Nissan dealers. There are 0 CCS sites. Tesla had in the past said there would be superchargers but supporting 100kW CCS and working with a partner would make a lot of sense for the long term.

 

[Bipo]

Keep in mind:
Tesla plug is ONE PHASE only
Mennekes is THREE PHASE

This means there is no Tesla plug on the EURO MODEL S. There must be a MENNEKES PLUG on the car itself (i wonder if it fit inside the rear light).

Furthermore this means a MENNEKES-to-TESLA SUPERCHARGER is possible. Mennekes supports DC-Mid charge up to 140AMPS (Supercharger has 120AMPS)

View attachment 14707

That pic shows that is (almost hypothetically) possible to get up to 340 A (200 + 140) with a Combo2 plug, using all the wires...

Combo2 is, by far, the best option for the EU Model S. I hope Tesla's engineers have chosen it as the car's plug.

 

[LuckyLuke]

Combo2 is, by far, the best option for the EU Model S. I hope Tesla's engineers have chosen it as the car's plug.

I sure hope not, it's not without reason that thing is called "Frankenplug"
My bet is either a separate dc port or a modified/deeper standard type2 port.

 

[dpeilow]

That's a Type 1. The Type 2 could be made much smaller, without the latch.

 

[Bipo]

Precisely, dpeilow. This is a standard Combo2, much better looking than the "Frankenplug":

Car side:

"Pump" side:

Both:

Here is a pdf that show ACEA's recommendations concerning charging.

View attachment charging_20110511.pdf

 

[widodh]

You know, I really do NOT care about how the connector looks like. When driving nobody sees the connector

 

[dpeilow]

^ exactly

 

[Bipo]

You know, I really do NOT care about how the connector looks like. When driving nobody sees the connector

Absolutely!!

It should be useful, not good looking. Soviet style aha! :biggrin:

 

[Norbert]

The european situation still looks very complicated, but to make a guess, it would be that the Model S will have the Type2 (if not Combo2) plug as an option on the other side of the car, in addition to the same Tesla-plug as in the US (with the same options).

 

[eledille]

That was also what I was wondering. Single phase charging power might be the Achilles heel of the Chameleon charger. From the following thread, it seems the fastest single phase EVSE they offer is 7kW, but it's not clear if the charger can handle more. It might be able to since the max 3 phase charging current is 63A and if you convert that over to 230V single phase that's about 15kW.
http://www.renaultzeforum.com/forums/Thread-Charging-Options

It will certainly not be able to handle 63 A single phase. Smoothing single phase diode bridge output is much more demanding per ampere compared to three phase. I speculate that a rectifier capable of 63 A three phase might be able to handle about 15 to 25 A of single phase. They may of course have decided that they need 32 A single and have modified it accordingly.

It's not a necessarily a real problem (although in the Roadster maybe it is, since that was an air cooled motor, plus even with a liquid cooled system there is much less air flow when the car is stationary), it's likely less efficient to have to use motor cooling. A dedicated charger would have a cooling circuit designed specifically for stationary usage and sized appropriately for the application.

I think 100 W for the radiator fan and another 100 W for the coolant pump should suffice, at least as long as the motor and battery have separate coolant circuits (the battery needs lower temperature, which reduces cooling efficiency). That's about what an idling ICE in a traffic jam needs to remove 10 kW or more of heat. This is less than 1% loss.

You know, I really do NOT care about how the connector looks like. When driving nobody sees the connector

That was my immediate thought too. I much, much rather want an ugly plug that is standardized and powerful.

Absolutely!!

It should be useful, not good looking. Soviet style aha! :biggrin:

Haha

dpeilow: France is something of a special case. They have both domestic three phase and single phase.

 

[dpeilow]

So does the UK, but it's unusual and typically only large buildings with electric heating. I read it's relatively new in some French regions, not too common. Either way we need both included for road trippers.

 

[eledille]

I doubt they could fit a 22kW charger into the space now occupied by a 10kW charger.

Why do you doubt that? Halved cost, weight and volume is exactly what I would expect when switching from 240 V single phase to 400 V three phase of the same power (this assumes no reductive/chameleon charger). That also agrees with the figures RWE published which was posted here earlier.

Personally I'd much prefer to have 90kW DC and 20kW AC rather than 70kW DC and 43kW AC, if they build out an extensive SC network.

If they build that SC network and they build it where you need it. For 90 kW DC using the Tesla connector, you completely depend on Tesla. If they choose the combo plug we would be able to use all of those, and Tesla could install their own ones with free access for their own customers. If we get 43 kW AC and 70 kW DC we would also be much less dependent on where and when Tesla decides to install superchargers.

I think the Combo plug is the wise choice, and I'm hoping for more than 22 kW.

 

[stopcrazypp]

If they are going with the Mennekes plug (rather than a Euro 3-phase version of the Tesla plug) I would vote for the Combo plug rather than a separate connector for the supercharger or just making do with less DC power. It's better to have one now so that the Model S can be used when the CCS DC stations start getting installed. It does mean Tesla needs some other way to control supercharger access, but that's not a huge issue.

I am hoping/expecting they will do the same in the US with the J1772 DC socket after a mass of J1772 DC chargers get installed.