Could have been, I couldn't see VINs. The Sig Red MS I saw were interspersed with MS in other colors also on the line, but the Sig Red was like a tractor beam that grabbed my eyes. I don't wish to minimize the frustration of Sig buyers in Europe, but Sig Red is worth an extended wait. P85+ Sig Red would be even more unusual, I don't believe there are any P85+ Sigs in North America.
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EU Signature Angst
- Thread starter Pilotech
- Start date
Could have been, I couldn't see VINs. The Sig Red MS I saw were interspersed with MS in other colors also on the line, but the Sig Red was like a tractor beam that grabbed my eyes. I don't wish to minimize the frustration of Sig buyers in Europe, but Sig Red is worth an extended wait. P85+ Sig Red would be even more unusual, I don't believe there are any P85+ Sigs in North America.
The sigs were never a good value for early reservation holders, unless they REALLY wanted the sig red. The sigs might be a good value for a late reservation holder, as a way to jump in front of the queue.
Everybody had a fair chance to downgrade to P. Lots of people did, and lots of happy people upgraded and jumped the queue.
Everybody had a fair chance to downgrade to P. Lots of people did, and lots of happy people upgraded and jumped the queue.
William13
Active Member
I put my money in for the Tesla and then Sig long before any European reservations occurred. I felt the same angst and pain waiting for my sig which came only two weeks before American standard versions were delivered.
I love my Sig Red. Totally worth the money for me. They do give a little extra connectivity with the Sig.
I love my Sig Red. Totally worth the money for me. They do give a little extra connectivity with the Sig.
Definitely understand your frustration, and I hope Tesla does well by you. Hopefully you will get more than a Tesla duffle bag for your wait. That being said, Tesla finally got my parcel shelf delivered last week... 8 months after the car (Sig) was delivered. Yay.
So, by this argument, all US and EU production should have been delayed until the RHD (UK, HK, AU, etc) signatures were delivered, while the factory sits idle?
I don't believe that is what Tesla promised. They promised that Signature reservation holders in each particular market would get their cars earlier than production reservation holders in the same market. So, Norwegian sigs before Norwegian production, Swiss sigs before Swiss production, Hong Kong sigs before Hong Kong production. And, roadster friends & family before production.
From what I read, the launch in US didn't go exactly that way in all cases, but in general that is how it proceeded. In particular, the related promise that 85kWh would get their cars before 60kWh before 40kWh and delays with some paint colours and other options, really messed up the order. Hopefully for Europe the supply chain has stabilised now and things will be fairer.
The real issue is that with a production rate of more than 400 cars a week, they have the capacity to produce the signatures very quickly. The time frame between the signatures and production vehicles will be very small. But, what is Tesla supposed to do? Pointlessly delay production vehicles by months just to make the signature holders feel better?
I suspect that the bottleneck is not going to be production constraints, but rather delivery constraints. Certainly, I don't see how the small Hong Kong team is going to deliver 300+ cars in a short period of time (when the same team spread 50+ roadster deliveries over two years).
We saw the same arguments from the US signature holders a year ago. The difference being that for EU signature holders they could see the situation and history well in advance of order lock-in.
For me, the choice of signature vs production comes down to that red colour. I can't justify it (especially as I live in a small place and a 60kWh battery is more than sufficient), but I live in hope of winning the lottery to make me change my mind.
"Pointless" is a bit inaccurate, IMO. They could delay the introduction of non-Signature vehicles in "new markets" by an artificial amount -- i.e. sending all the production capacity to established markets. Some would argue they did something similar with the 2013 Red.
I'm not recommending they do that, but they definitely could.
Besides some (minor) vehicle feature differences (color, interior, etc.) the sig reservation simply allows one to lay claim to one the first 1000 cars in the market. The time effect of such a deal is manifested by the reservationists entirely. No actual timing is explicitly specified by Tesla. Thus if they could produce 1000 cars daily, guess what, you just bought yourself a day as a sig. You are paying for a position in a queue not how fast the queue moves. Regardless also, #1000 will always feel like crap cause #1001 will get their car at the same time if not sooner without the sig tax. You should have done your research on the US sigs. They struggled with the same exact issue.
This was also further made painful as cancelled sig positions became available down the road. This allowed a regular reservationist to jump forward very late in the process (say when sig 800 was being made) and keeping their $ close to their vest until last minute.
Think queue position. The timing is implied.
This was also further made painful as cancelled sig positions became available down the road. This allowed a regular reservationist to jump forward very late in the process (say when sig 800 was being made) and keeping their $ close to their vest until last minute.
Think queue position. The timing is implied.
Here's an example: EU cars are getting parking sensors front and back, due to local requirements (it's a really big car for EU). Apparently this is not easily retrofitted to NA cars due to the lack of a wiring harness.
Canadian Signature owners got their cars well after they started shipping US Production, partly due to homologation issues. Signature probably wasn't terribly good value for the money, although I was extremely lucky and got the first delivery in Canada... by about 15 minutes... so extremely minor bragging rights there.
As others have said: if you don't like what the offering is, and don't care about Sig Red or some slightly better cosmetics, then I would recommend dropping back to Production.
I think you meant this post for the "Signature Angst" thread which is primarily North America focused. Also, I think you meant 1200.
My point was that "1,000" doesn't apply to Europe (or North America). Based on fuzzy memories and "The Tally", European sigs are the first 500.
The OP seemed to be suggesting that all production vehicles be delayed until all signature vehicles were delivered. Specifically US production be delayed until EU signatures had been delivered. The only way of doing that, IMHO, would be to delay all other production, given homologation and other issues.
If anybody ever had that expectation of Tesla's Signature offering, they were grossly misinformed and making very poor guesses from incomplete information. If they had done something so foolish, we might have been looking at a penny stock by the end of 2013.
Given the maturity of the production process now, I think the best we can ask for is that Tesla honor the S->R->P order, and within that the reservation sequence, within each country. Swiss R-1 should get his car just after Swiss S-last.
Balancing production capacity between countries is up to Tesla, and not something they've promised (beyond statements such as Norway will be the first deliveries in Europe). Tesla have their own production issues there, not to mention quarterly performance estimates.
Balancing production capacity between countries is up to Tesla, and not something they've promised (beyond statements such as Norway will be the first deliveries in Europe). Tesla have their own production issues there, not to mention quarterly performance estimates.
AustinPowers
Total Smeghead
+1
Some people on the forum often say Tesla deserves a break. As a normal customer I say "no they don't". One might cut them some slack, but a normal customer doesn't care (and shouldn't have to care) about all the obstacles Tesla has/had to overcome. Every other startup has to overcome obstacles too in order to successfully enter a market.
I know many here are loyal Tesla fans and it is therefor understandable that they would feel some sort of sympathy for the company.
But be realistic, the average customer simply wants to get what he is promised. If Tesla promised a three-month-early delivery for Euro Sig holders (that is "three months before Euro P cars"), then that is what they should deliver. If they don't, a Euro Sig holder has every right to be angry. And it shows how little they actually care about their customers. They only seem to care for Wallstreet. Window dressing their numbers to show more impressive quarterly results, drastic price increases in order to attain an unrealistically high profit margin in an even more unrealistically short amount of time. I mean hey, that is not the "we are doing things differently" company many fans would like Tesla to be.
So, don't treat Tesla like they "deserve" a break. They achieved some impressive things, sure, but when someone promises something, they should deliver what they promise - or else lose their credibility. That's what is happening here.
(I think it is obvious that I am not one of those who have a special sympathy for Tesla - nor any other carmaker for that matter. I think Tesla built a great EV with the Model S, but other than that, I don't judge them any differently than I would any other company, carmaker or otherwise. And if for example BMW had promised me something in return for paying them a huge amount of money up front, and then not kept their promise, I would never have bought a car from them again. I am sure most people would act the same).
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Sure, but that applies to all European cars, not just the Signatures.
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I don't see anyone asking Tesla to give a break for not fulfilling expectations that where never promised. It is more that the OP's expectations are on the wrong side of reality.
Here is what Tesla stated:
"Each launch will begin with a limited edition Signature Series." (source)
It appears that Europe is handled as several markets, due to CH and Norway not being part of the European Union, and to differ WRT tax and homologation.
There never was a statement that ALL signatures would be completed before the first U.S. production car.
Honor reservation numbers for delivery
Tesla never stated they would do this. The reservation number is a place in queue being asked to finalize. If you bid your time, other car orders get sent to the factory first. It is unrealistic to expect Tesla idling the Fremont factory for you to finalize your car order.
There was a statement from Tesla that you have 30 days to decide without losing your place in the production sequence, but this appeared to not be true for North America. A bit of research would have revealed that.
Signature cars are delivered first
Was already stated up thread: Signature buys you first car, not an arbitrary amount of time before other cars are being delivered. If the OP would consider to drop back to general production, I wonder if he would accept to expect his car in January?
Here is what Tesla stated:
"Each launch will begin with a limited edition Signature Series." (source)
It appears that Europe is handled as several markets, due to CH and Norway not being part of the European Union, and to differ WRT tax and homologation.
There never was a statement that ALL signatures would be completed before the first U.S. production car.
Honor reservation numbers for delivery
Tesla never stated they would do this. The reservation number is a place in queue being asked to finalize. If you bid your time, other car orders get sent to the factory first. It is unrealistic to expect Tesla idling the Fremont factory for you to finalize your car order.
There was a statement from Tesla that you have 30 days to decide without losing your place in the production sequence, but this appeared to not be true for North America. A bit of research would have revealed that.
Signature cars are delivered first
Was already stated up thread: Signature buys you first car, not an arbitrary amount of time before other cars are being delivered. If the OP would consider to drop back to general production, I wonder if he would accept to expect his car in January?
Yep, so you'd be better off if you had reserved an early R (unless you REALLY wanted sig red and/or white leather).
Someone who reserved a sig 3 months ago got to jump the queue quite a bit, so a much better value for them.
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