sleepydoc
Well-Known Member
Well, for virtually every other maker out there it would involve taking the car in to the dealer for 4 hours.
The term may be anachronistic, but only for Tesla!
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Elon: FSD Beta tweets
- Thread starter Terminator857
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The term may be anachronistic, but only for Tesla!
sleepydoc
Well-Known Member
Interestingly, I’ve found the efficiency to be far better than I expected when using FSD, in spite of the behaviors you describe.
It would cost a lot of taxpayer money to change the laws/regulations to change the term, or create a new one for OTA updates, which would make no difference in what the government or automakers did to resolve safety issues.
AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
Yes.
1) Braking losses for actually coming to an halt are a small part of most driving so it doesn’t really matter if you brake or not. Most of the efficiency gains come from regen during driving where one would not normally think you are really “braking.”
2) The whole issue really has less to do with the use of the brakes and more with the deceleration profile.
The undesired profile does seem slightly improved in the latest 10.69. But it is still there for sure.
sleepydoc
Well-Known Member
NHTSA is a regulatory agency. They don’t need to change any laws to change what they call it.
Elon can complain all he wants.
From the NHTSA website, it doesn't say you have to bring the car in for a recall. It says "remedy", "fix", "repair". OTA is just the method:
03 Recalls
Manufacturers are required to fix the problem by repairing it, replacing it, offering a refund, or in rare cases repurchasing the vehicle.
From the NHTSA website, it doesn't say you have to bring the car in for a recall. It says "remedy", "fix", "repair". OTA is just the method:
03 Recalls
Initiated safety recalls require a manufacturer's action to announce and remedy the defects.
A recall is issued when a manufacturer or NHTSA determines that a vehicle, equipment, car seat, or tire creates an unreasonable safety risk or fails to meet minimum safety standards. Most decisions to conduct a recall and remedy a safety defect are made voluntarily by manufacturers prior to any involvement by NHTSA.Manufacturers are required to fix the problem by repairing it, replacing it, offering a refund, or in rare cases repurchasing the vehicle.
NHTSA should replace the outdated "recall" nomenclature with something like Hardware Modification Order (HMO) and Software Modification Order (SMO).
But every regulation, manual, procedure, etc. document that refers to 'recall' would need to be changed and republished just to change the term. Manufacturers would need to change their policies, procedures, software, training materials as well to reflect the simple wording change. And, since there would be no change to how manufacturers address and remedy the issue, the change would essentially be cosmetic.
If a recall required manufactures to actually come in contact with the vehicles, then making the change to simply permit an OTA update would eventually result in cost savings. But OTAs are already permitted, so this would simply be a wording change.
What would be modernizing the actual procedures. As it currently stands, you will get a letter from Tesla in the mail in April formally notifying you of the recall. By that time, probably 90%+ of cars will have already received the OTA that fixes the issues, making the notice somewhat superfluous. Perhaps it would be more efficient to send notices only to owners who have not installed the necessary OTA. Better still might be to notify customers using other means, such as email, notification via the Tesla App and/or pop-up panel on the car's display. In an increasingly digital world, getting a paper notice in the mail is become a quaint anachronism.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
That depends on where the definition of recall actually comes from... the law, or agency regulations. They can change the second, but not the first, without legislation.
You can see this exact controversy playing out regarding the definition of machine guns in the various bump stock lawsuits FWIW.
This post has linkage to the relevant bit of US code- where the word Recall is specifically used and would presumably need congress to change
Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable
Prices increased in China:
teslamotorsclub.com
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EXACTLY.
Other EV makers have had recalls that were addressed with OTA updates. And notice they werent whining on Twitter asking for special favoritism thinking they were above the rules.
Shut up and do the "voluntary" recall, Elon. And prepare to do more in the future for FSD. Whether you like it or not. No one cares if your lil feelings are hurt.
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DanCar
Active Member
What is your basis for thinking that way? If any laws need updating has the NHTSA requested such law changes?
DanCar
Active Member
Best for NHTSA to do its homework, rather than spreading lies.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
DanCar
Active Member
Which vehicles are being recalled because of FSD? None.
recall - Wiktionary : To withdraw, retract
No vehicles are being withdrawn. No vehicles are being retracted.
Definition #2: To call back, bring back
No vehicles are being called back. No vehicles are being brought back.
Definition #7: to request or order the return of (a faulty product).
No vehicles are being requested or ordered to be returned.
See also Elon's tweet where he said the info is wrong, in other words a lie.
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Recalls have as much to do with physically possessing the vehicle as disengagements, human safety factors, and the March of 9s have to do with robotaxis.
The recall process is just there to provide a framework within which safety defects can be identified and manufacturers held to correcting those defects.
The recall process is just there to provide a framework within which safety defects can be identified and manufacturers held to correcting those defects.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
Except US law has a different definition.
Which is the actual relevant one. I even linked to the section of US code a few posts above.
So yes, all US cars with FSDb are being recalled per definition of US law-- a defect was identified, and the car maker is going to remedy it. There is nothing in the available remedies that REQUIRES physically touching the vehicle-- even if that was previously the only way other companies could do it... requirement is only that the remedy FIX the problem. So no lie there.
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DanCar
Active Member
Are you talking about this 49 U.S. Code § 30120 - Remedies for defects and noncompliance ?
If so, I could use an education on which part says can't say software recall versus vehicle recall. Or something similar. For example vehicle software recall.
I was not able to spot definition(s) you mentioned.
Heres the thing.
The action was voluntary on the part of Tesla. If Elon was so adamant about it, surely..surely..he would have used that super top notch legal team he hired to "fight any case/act against Tesla that I feel is unjust", no?
But guess what...he didnt. Instead he caved in...the went on Twitter to whine about it. Perhaps next time he should fight back if he's so confident in his product, no?
But with most cars a software update STILL requires you to bring your car in for service. So guess there needs to be 3 levels adding SMOATS (Software Modification Order At The Stealer) and SMOOTA (Software Modification Order Over The Air).
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