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Elon "About to end range anxiety"

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If you follow Musk's tweets and it's replies closely, you might know @John_Gardi

This is what he has to say:
Mark my words, this is more about accuracy MEASURING range than actually improving it. KNOWING the range ends anxiety.

I just posted this on the TM forum...

This is from the current 6.1 Release Notes:
___
Navigation:
The projected energy remaining will briefly be displayed as a percent when a trip is first generated by the Navigation system. Thereafter, you can view it by tapping the area at the bottom of the turn list. While Navigation is active, Model S will also monitor your energy usage and advise you:
If you need to drive slowly to reach your destination, or if you won’t be able to reach your destination without charging.
Whether Model S has sufficient energy for a round trip—enough energy to get to your destination and back to the starting point of your trip. Tap on the bar at the bottom of the Navigation turn list to see this value.
Trip Chart:
You can also monitor energy usage while on your trip via the new Trip Chart in the Energy app. This chart allows you to track Model S’s actual energy usage against the initial prediction. To examine the chart in more detail, you can tap on the zoom button in the upper right portion of the chart.
___
I don't really think that adding in crowd sourced data - whether from the MS fleet, plug share, weather reports, elevation data or whatever else - to improve the navigation algorithm and functionality for better prediction and routing is worthy of a press conference.



 
Yep. This is my WAG too. I will be extremely disappointed if Elon called a press conference to announce a nav update. Huge yawn ... such things will happen over time anyway, as will better energy prediction, tweaks to the drive train control software for increased efficiency, widening the usable energy in the battery a little, ..., all of which are software OTA but really don't merit a press conference. SEC rules for public companies are quite clear about making sure investors have a level playing field. That's why there are such scrutiny on insider trading -- trading on information which is not public. In my corporate experience, a press conference is for a major (financially material) announcement, like a material new partnership which will change the trajectory of the company. Coupled with an increase in charge rate, it only makes logical sense to me that he's going to announce a 3rd party partnership for rapidly increasing the number of charging sites to end range anxiety. It could be that the non-Telsa DC charging sites will be pay for energy in some way, and the Tesla ones remain "free" (actually, pre-paid). I guess we'll have to wait until Thursday, but the negative ramifications of a ho-hum press conference could be pretty devastating.

Had Elon Musk not tweeted that it would be by an over-the-air update, I could agree with you that he could be announcing that they'll be building 600* Superchargers in the USA. But he said OTA update. Which means that it's a software improvement that eliminates range anxiety.

Tesla is building the Supercharger network out, and that makes trips possible, but it doesn't deal with the range anxiety associated with variables that affect energy use, such as weather, traffic and the rolling resistance of your tires (affected by the tire itself and tire pressures).

So, in reference to my previous post, let's do a "What If?"

What if Tesla had a 100% accurate real-time algorithm for mapping your routes, calculating how much energy you'll use, and giving you the best strategy for minimizing your travel time or charging time? It would take variables such as weather, climate control use, traffic and Supercharger occupancy into account. You get in, input your destination, it would do the calculation and give you the results. As you drive it will tell you any adjustments to make based on differences between prediction and actual events. For this scenario, forgot current holes in the Supercharger network, which Tesla continues to fill.

If that were the case, as long as you follow its instructions you won't have to worry about running out of charge. Sure, your travel time might vary a bit, but that happens anyway. If it's raining heavily or snowing you have to slow down and since slowing down cuts energy consumption significantly in order to have a complete failure there would have to be insanely freakish conditions where the difficult weather wasn't expected, climate control and battery conditioning were (unexpectedly) using a lot of energy, then there's a sudden traffic jam from which you can't easily detour.

Accurate energy usage prediction is not a small thing. It's a mind-boggling HUGE thing. Range anxiety comes from uncertainty. It's why Tesla has been working on it, and talking about it for a long time.

They've already had the previous firmware release where they introduced the energy prediction which I believe takes terrain into account. The next key step is real-time information about weather, because we know that temperature, wind and precipitation can all have a large impact on range. Traffic is also important, but, since slowing down cuts energy use, weather is likely to be the bigger factor.

It's not going to be perfect, but it doesn't have to be. As long as they allow margin for error they just need it to be good enough that people can trust it. With their OTA updates so they can easily continue to improve it. The better the model, the lower the buffer and more likely you are to arrive at Superchargers with ideal SoC and the less time you'll spend at them. That's what Tesla wants, because the real Supercharger problem isn't providing enough locations, it's maximizing throughput and avoiding contention.

It's possible and I expect that they'll also talk about other things like the plans for the Supercharger network, but there's only one possible software element that can end range anxiety and that's accurate energy usage prediction. I can also see them wanting to have integration of destination charging, because they know it's important to lower contention at Superchargers, but overall I don't think it's anywhere near as crucial or press-conference worthy. (Most trips have fixed destinations, other BEVs already have charger locators and there's a PlugShare app).

* Robert calculated that fewer than 600 Superchargers would be needed to have 40-mile-radius coverage for all Interstates in the Lower 48.
 
The idea is OTA software update to allow faster charging at Superchargers (that would be upgraded, that's where the hardware changes are, not in the cars). There is nothing that will make 80A hpwc faster, that are 19.2kW and nothing can change on that front.

Again, this doesn't really fit as many of us have no or extremely limited access to superchargers and that would do nothing to reduce range anxiety. If I am at the edge of my battery range to reach a destination I'll still have anxiety even if I can charge super fast once I get to the super charger...IF I get to the supercharger.
 
The ONLY way to "end range anxiety" is to be assured that you aren't going to run out of juice. A bigger battery or more range DOES NOT do this.

Wrong perspective. If you don't own an EV, more range absolutely does 'end' range anxiety. "How far can you go" is one of the first two questions non EV owners ask EV owners. Why? Because they're worried about the range.

Thus, among other things, we WILL get an [underwhelming] increase of range OTA (unlocking capacity,microsleep/pulse, whatever).

At least for those capable of separating reality from the literal meaning of every word muttered by Elon, this upgrade will be a step in the direction of 'ending range anxiety' (or whatever he actually said--I don't even remember at this point). Actually ending range anxiety is as feasible as eradicating stupidity, or achieving peace in the Middle East.
 
For those of you who are strict about discarding ideas because they aren't strictly "OTA updates", you should consider that what matters is the perspective of you, the customer with a Tesla car.
If Tesla strikes deals to have superchargers peppered everywhere through whatever partnerships (gas stations, restaurants, stores, whatever), and enable it to the whole fleet via an OTA update, it still means you, as a customer, do not need new hardware to take advantage of it. That's what companies mean when they say you get new features with a software update. It doesn't mean there is no infrastructure on their side, it just looks at the customer's side of the experience (you don't need to buy anything or bring your car in to get the feature).

-- Greg
 
I know many people think he's a bit off, but Trip Chowdry wrote that Tesla might "accomplish this with its inverter technology and frequency modulation. The inverter converts DC (from batteries) into AC, which powers the motor. This creates a Sine Wave Form, which has a typical frequency of 50 to 60 Hz. However, if the frequency is somehow modified in the inverter, the waveform is modified, and the conversion from DC to AC becomes more efficient. This would mean that a regular charge could power a Tesla's road trip for an increased amount of miles."
Does this make any sense? I'm not an engineer type so I have no idea. And hypothetically, how much of an improvement would this be? (Sorry if this was posted before)
 
Wrong perspective. If you don't own an EV, more range absolutely does 'end' range anxiety. "How far can you go" is one of the first two questions non EV owners ask EV owners. Why? Because they're worried about the range.

Thus, among other things, we WILL get an [underwhelming] increase of range OTA (unlocking capacity,microsleep/pulse, whatever).

At least for those capable of separating reality from the literal meaning of every word muttered by Elon, this upgrade will be a step in the direction of 'ending range anxiety' (or whatever he actually said--I don't even remember at this point). Actually ending range anxiety is as feasible as eradicating stupidity, or achieving peace in the Middle East.

I agree with a lot of what you said above with the exception of "underwhelming", I think a significant improvement can be made. Not in the sense of efficiency tweaks but in perhaps with an eco mode and a moderate reduction in the duty cycle of the motor.

- - - Updated - - -

I know many people think he's a bit off, but Trip Chowdry wrote that Tesla might "accomplish this with its inverter technology and frequency modulation. The inverter converts DC (from batteries) into AC, which powers the motor. This creates a Sine Wave Form, which has a typical frequency of 50 to 60 Hz. However, if the frequency is somehow modified in the inverter, the waveform is modified, and the conversion from DC to AC becomes more efficient. This would mean that a regular charge could power a Tesla's road trip for an increased amount of miles."
Does this make any sense? I'm not an engineer type so I have no idea. And hypothetically, how much of an improvement would this be? (Sorry if this was posted before)

Yep, this is exactly what I'm suggesting. But I agree with the unknown improvement. My education was EE but I haven't practiced in quite a while.
 
They've already had the previous firmware release where they introduced the energy prediction which I believe takes terrain into account. The next key step is real-time information about weather, because we know that temperature, wind and precipitation can all have a large impact on range. Traffic is also important, but, since slowing down cuts energy use, weather is likely to be the bigger factor.

Actually the biggest factor affecting range is speed. The current software already tells you if you need to drive slowly to reach your destination. And with the current trip monitoring, you can always see actual energy usage checked against the system's prediction. I've used it several times already when I wasn't 100% certain I had enough juice to the next SC. I then drove accordingly and got to my destination with about 1-2% battery left.

Again, more data and an improved algorithm does not seem worthy of what Elon tweeted. A press release sure, but a press conference?
 
Wrong perspective. If you don't own an EV, more range absolutely does 'end' range anxiety. "How far can you go" is one of the first two questions non EV owners ask EV owners. Why? Because they're worried about the range.

Thus, among other things, we WILL get an [underwhelming] increase of range OTA (unlocking capacity,microsleep/pulse, whatever).

At least for those capable of separating reality from the literal meaning of every word muttered by Elon, this upgrade will be a step in the direction of 'ending range anxiety' (or whatever he actually said--I don't even remember at this point). Actually ending range anxiety is as feasible as eradicating stupidity, or achieving peace in the Middle East.

"About to end range anxiety ... via OTA software update".

As for the idea of a range tweak, there's no magic bullet that would dramatically increase range. Because physics. If there's a range tweak, it'd just be improvements to torque sleep.

And no, more range doesn't actually end range anxiety, it just makes it suitable for more trips.
 
FWIW, I'm getting 47 MPH right now at my Level 2 charger at work.

That's an HPWC or 60 A clipper creek. 90+% of all L2s are 7 kW max, most often 6 kW. It's painfully slow in an MS.

I'm of the camp that charging speed is a part of range anxiety. Merely redirecting me to some L2 charging point, that May or may not be in use, May or may not be working, etc. ain't gonna help. I do not want to see Plugshare integration. And if that's all this press conference is about then I'll simply disable it.
 
I know many people think he's a bit off, but Trip Chowdry wrote that Tesla might "accomplish this with its inverter technology and frequency modulation. The inverter converts DC (from batteries) into AC, which powers the motor. This creates a Sine Wave Form, which has a typical frequency of 50 to 60 Hz. However, if the frequency is somehow modified in the inverter, the waveform is modified, and the conversion from DC to AC becomes more efficient. This would mean that a regular charge could power a Tesla's road trip for an increased amount of miles."
Does this make any sense? I'm not an engineer type so I have no idea. And hypothetically, how much of an improvement would this be? (Sorry if this was posted before)

I think there's a misunderstanding here. Assuming that the inverter works the way that most AC drive inverters work, they take DC in and output an AC frequency that corresponds to the speed that they intend to drive the motor at. It's not typically 50/60Hz. It can be much faster or somewhat slower. On a lot of AC inverter drives, the output waveform is closer to a rather ugly square wave than a sine wave and output reactors may be used to smooth it out a bit.

This is pretty old technology, and I'm not really sure how it would be that Tesla would be able to come up with something massively more efficient than the state of the art that's used literally everywhere in industry. But! I'd be really happy to see them do it and and learn how they did it.
 
That's an HPWC or 60 A clipper creek. 90+% of all L2s are 7 kW max, most often 6 kW. It's painfully slow in an MS.

I'm of the camp that charging speed is a part of range anxiety. Merely redirecting me to some L2 charging point, that May or may not be in use, May or may not be working, etc. ain't gonna help. I do not want to see Plugshare integration. And if that's all this press conference is about then I'll simply disable it.

+1. Yes better predictor and charger aware nav would help a little with range anxiety, but it's not just about getting there or getting routed to chargers... it's about getting there in a reasonable time frame and getting routed to chargers that have some pace. That's why I'm hopeful this is a multi-part announcement that includes predictor/nav, but also expanded high speed (maybe not all SC) network, and perhaps slight boost in range as well. Or, something I can't think of... but NOT plugshare integration...
 
Actually the biggest factor affecting range is speed. The current software already tells you if you need to drive slowly to reach your destination. And with the current trip monitoring, you can always see actual energy usage checked against the system's prediction. I've used it several times already when I wasn't 100% certain I had enough juice to the next SC. I then drove accordingly and got to my destination with about 1-2% battery left.

Again, more data and an improved algorithm does not seem worthy of what Elon tweeted. A press release sure, but a press conference?

Does it know that the current conditions you're driving in aren't going to last?
Can it adjust for the rain you're about to drive into?
Or the change from rain to a wintry mix to snow during the next 50 miles?
Does it adjust for the headwinds and crosswinds you're going to encounter ahead?
Does its calculations account for the fact that conditions are going to be significantly different when you make the return trip in 2 hours?

Are you OK with having to think about your energy use and make calculations while you drive?
Do you think most drivers would be OK with that mental effort?

Given that articles on the announcement are talking about tweaks to range and that none of the articles has mentioned the current prediction capabilities do you think that people are even aware of the current capabilities?
 
...there's no magic bullet that would dramatically increase range.

Right. Hence my prediction of "underwhelming". I'm going to guess ~10-15% or so, or whatever it takes to get a real world 300miles in an 85. I also think we'll also get faster supercharging rates (better taper), at least for road trip traveling.

And no, more range doesn't actually end range anxiety, it just makes it suitable for more trips.

The point was that its impossible to actually "end" range anxiety. More specifically, because the vast majority of Tesla owners do NOT have range anxiety, the solution will not be geared toward current owners (though the solution presented on Thursday will include more prediction/"make it there" tools that we'll all crisis over...).

Future owners could give a **** about anything but how much range the car has, therefore the only way to ease their anxiety is to give them more range. Which folds neatly back into Elon's super secret "demand" lever...
 
Two things keep popping up in this thread. And of course me pointing this out will immediately stop that. Right. Anyway

a) he quite explicitly said "via OTA software update"

so no, this isn't about something that requires a hardware change to the cars

b) he talks about "ending range anxiety"

anxiety happens with 40 miles range, 87 mile range, 205 mile range, 300 mile range. So this isn't something that extends the range. It's something that deals with the anxiety - which to me says the anxiety of not knowing if you have enough range.


I know lots of people have said that they'd be underwhelmed by a nav update... I think that is the most likely answer. At least this will be PART of what he'll announce. Especially as both he and Jerome have talked about this before...
 
I think there's a misunderstanding here. Assuming that the inverter works the way that most AC drive inverters work, they take DC in and output an AC frequency that corresponds to the speed that they intend to drive the motor at. It's not typically 50/60Hz. It can be much faster or somewhat slower. On a lot of AC inverter drives, the output waveform is closer to a rather ugly square wave than a sine wave and output reactors may be used to smooth it out a bit.

This is pretty old technology, and I'm not really sure how it would be that Tesla would be able to come up with something massively more efficient than the state of the art that's used literally everywhere in industry. But! I'd be really happy to see them do it and and learn how they did it.

My guess: They've developed a new approach to derive the sine wave needed by the motor. Yep, the frequency of the wave does match the speed request from the Go pedal but the difference is how they build the wave. This building of the wave is known as the modulation technique and you're right there are LOTS of OLD ways to do this but I suspect that Tesla has developed their own modulation technique (possibly as a part of the torque sleep code for dual motors) that significantly reduces the duty cycle (the amount of time the motor is under load) and thus reduces the energy needed to drive the motor for a given period of time. So, not really an improvement in efficiency so much but more of shutting motor off and back on quickly when the Go pedal is not asking for acceleration.

But, who knows...I'll definitely be listening on Thursday morning.
 
You can all stop guessing now. Thursday's press 'call' is about the contents of firmware 6.2.

I think this is largely true, and I think ItsNotAbout TheMoney's list of potential improvements in the Trip Energy Prediction software above are highly relevant.

With regard to the worthiness of the press conference, let me just say that I was SHOCKED that Tesla did not make a bigger deal out of even the original TEP in v6.1. To me, an avid and very experienced road tripper, the predictions made a HUGE difference. I wrote an email to Jerome and strongly encouraged Tesla to make more out of this capability, which no other EV really has; actually no other vehicle, period, has.
 
With regard to the worthiness of the press conference, let me just say that I was SHOCKED that Tesla did not make a bigger deal out of even the original TEP in v6.1. To me, an avid and very experienced road tripper, the predictions made a HUGE difference. I wrote an email to Jerome and strongly encouraged Tesla to make more out of this capability, which no other EV really has; actually no other vehicle, period, has.
OK, so now we know why there's a press conference. Vger asked Jerome to do it!