Do you know that you must keep your battery charged?

[DrTaras]

The Tesla full long press release on the matter (upthread and this link) says it's from 50% SOC.

Thank you for that

Still want them to upgrade Roadster firmware to do this.

Agreed. Thank you for advancing the story when you posted that earlier!

 

[DrTaras]

I don't see why the PEM would be damaged. I would suspect that the PEM could be "booted back up" as soon as a pack with charge is available.

Thank you for pointing that out

To me, having the car "cry out for help" (with audible alarms, cellphone texts, etc.) seems like the right approach.

"If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?"
Its a good start, but still looking for further dummy-proofing

 

[DrTaras]

I don't know if this is a different manual than the one you have, but the info you are looking for is the section "Leaving the vehicle unplugged"

Of the 6 highlighted places only the one that you point out "Leaving the vehicle unplugged" is specific. The others are more vague with "extended period of time" or "designed to be plugged in."
Like I said, I have read the manual and I don't remember if there was different wording in the 1st 340 as opposed to after that.
In school we were given 2 types of tests (over generalizing): Closed book and open book. The reading the manual and being expected to remember everything is like getting 100% on every test you ever took, assuming you read the material. People even don't get 100%s on open book tests! More dummy-proof makes for better PR for Tesla and for EVs. My $0.02

 

[Norbert]

People even don't get 100%s on open book tests! More dummy-proof makes for better PR for Tesla and for EVs. My $0.02

Well, it is also a collective learning process.

 

[eledille]

This probably assumes that you start from a full charge on a 300mile battery; my guess. That being said, can you please provide the link where those words are written, especially about killing the parasitic loads. That would be great for the Model S but I am still leery for there is a difference between hibernating, which still consumes some battery and complete battery shut off before the battery bricks! We might, on the Roadster, already have the former.

vfx: Thank you.

DrTaras: The sequence of events published by Tesla clearly shows that pumps and fans continue to run until the battery dies. I don't have the time to dig up the reference, maybe I'll edit the post or someone else finds it, or you could look it up yourself. Quote from the Tesla press release about Model S bricking:

Model S batteries also have the ability to protect themselves as they approach very low charge levels by going into a “deep sleep” mode that lowers the loss even further. A Model S will not allow its battery to fall below about 5 percent charge. At that point the car can still sit for many months. Of course you can drive a Model S to 0 percent charge, but even in that circumstance, if you plug it in within 30 days, the battery will recover normally.

If anyone can come up with any reasonable suggestions as to what "going into a deep sleep mode that lowers the loss even further" might mean other than killing parasitic loads, then I'm all ears.

• If you park at 50% SOC you can be away for a whole year, as I said.
  
• If you disregard all warnings and drive it down to five percent, you can still ignore it for "many months".
  
• If you insist on putting a 12-gauge load of buckshot through your foot by driving until the car will not move, then leave it without plugging in, it will still be OK for at least 30 days.
  
• Whenever the car detects that the battery is in danger, it will emit various visible and audible warnings, send messages to your phone, and even call Tesla for help.
  

What more do you want? This scenario is much less likely to occur than ruining an ICE because you forgot to have the timing belt changed.

 

[PV4EV]

As far as I know all recent and future Tesla's have GSM as standard. Surely this could be set up at purchase time so that the car simply sends a TXT to the owners cell-phone (rather than just Tesla Service) alerting them to plug it in ASAP ?


I find it hard to believe that even Mr Drucker doesn’t carry a cell phone around with him, or read SMS or emails for more than a couple of weeks at a time.


Is there some reason why this would not work ?

 

[NigelM]

As far as I know all recent and future Tesla's have GSM as standard. Surely this could be set up at purchase time so that the car simply sends a TXT to the owners cell-phone (rather than just Tesla Service) alerting them to plug it in ASAP ?

Is there some reason why this would not work ?

What about when someone loses their cellphone or changes their number but forgets to "tell" the car? What about the person who's in a coma in the hospital?!? We want it DUMMY-proof!!!

(Sarcasm...in case you didn't notice)

 

[NigelM]

....too many make nasty quips at those who do not agree with their, 'this is the only way people should live' outlook on life!

....those who were verbally stoned - medved comes to mind...

Hypocritical?

 

[dsm363]

As far as I know all recent and future Tesla's have GSM as standard. Surely this could be set up at purchase time so that the car simply sends a TXT to the owners cell-phone (rather than just Tesla Service) alerting them to plug it in ASAP ?


I find it hard to believe that even Mr Drucker doesn’t carry a cell phone around with him, or read SMS or emails for more than a couple of weeks at a time.


Is there some reason why this would not work ?

I hate to defend this guy but don't think his car would have had GSM built in since it's a 1.5.

I guess people don't feel 'permanently damage the battery' and 'not covered under your new vehicle warranty' are not strong enough. Tesla should add stronger, more natural language as mentioned before.

 

[PV4EV]

... We want it DUMMY-proof!!! ...

(Sarcasm...in case you didn't notice)

A dummy proof car will need an endless list of warnings to be acknowledged before it will start, which will test if they can read and make choices, EG:-


WARNING : Car will fall towards the ground if you drive off a cliff. This Tesla is not equipped with an anti-gravity drive. Do you understand this ? [yes] [no].

[CAR: If 'no' Then Enable_gene_pool_cleansing_underseat_spike_device]

etc.


Feel free to add your own anti-dummy warnings :smile:

 

[JRP3]

Of the 6 highlighted places only the one that you point out "Leaving the vehicle unplugged" is specific. The others are more vague with "extended period of time" or "designed to be plugged in."
Like I said, I have read the manual and I don't remember if there was different wording in the 1st 340 as opposed to after that.
In school we were given 2 types of tests (over generalizing): Closed book and open book. The reading the manual and being expected to remember everything is like getting 100% on every test you ever took, assuming you read the material. People even don't get 100%s on open book tests! More dummy-proof makes for better PR for Tesla and for EVs. My $0.02

Did you have to sign the document at purchase which described the consequences of not plugging in?

 

[PV4EV]

I hate to defend this guy but don't think his car would have had GSM built in since it's a 1.5.

I agree. I think Tesla fitted these after #500 possibly as a result of the user debugging on the early cars. I kinda implied that with the 'all recent and future' comment.

 

[JRP3]

Then it went off the rails when it went in started a blatant rumor that Max is part of a Mossad Israeli conspiracy with the only shred of evidence that he donates time, money and his home to causes that support Israel! Disgustingly ANTI-SEMETIC!

Odd, I never made that connection at all.

 

[dsm363]

Basically, to DrTaras's point about dummy proofing things. That's basically impossible. It appears with the Model S and onwards, they're designed a much better system making it almost impossible to ruin your battery. The chance isn't zero though and Tesla needs to make this very clear verbally, in writing, and repeat this at each annual service.

 

[the scrub]

This article did a good job of factually describing Max Drucker, gathering info publicly available on the net. Then it went off the rails when it went in started a blatant rumor that Max is part of a Mossad Israeli conspiracy with the only shred of evidence that he donates time, money and his home to causes that support Israel! Disgustingly ANTI-SEMETIC! The only room for pause, that made me think that this scrub guy had any scruples was that he told us that in the interest of protecting minors he was going to withhold publishing information on Mr. Drucker's kids; that was a classy move.

Scrub has his own axe to grind with Drucker; I wish that the rest of us here on TMC would de-focus on Mr. Drucker and refocus on the future of this problem.
Some have but too many make nasty quips at those who do not agree with their, 'this is the only way people should live' outlook on life!
Sadly, 300 posts after my diatribe, http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...ur-battery-charged/page29?p=116031#post116031 I see the same (though less so, but that may be accounted for by having chased off those who were verbally stoned - medved comes to mind) quips about Drucker or those who agree with him. United we stand; divided we fall!

Hello. I am the blogger you just called "disgustingly ANTI-SEMITIC!" I would like to take a few minutes to respond to this crap.

First off, I write in character. The character is a jerk. I think that gets lost on some people. I have to write that way because the topics I normally discuss on the site (credit, debt, bankruptcy, foreclosure, etc.) are quite boring.

Granted, the tone of the article is quite offensive, but calling it "disgustingly ANTI-SEMITIC" is absurd. The article is anti-authoritarian and anti-elitist.

That said, the information I provided in the article is accurate, despite how uncomfortable it may make you feel that someone dares to criticize a Jew.

1. If you bother to follow intelligence community news, you would be aware that Israel spies operate on US soil in greater numbers and on a grander scale than any other country the US considers to be an ally:

Breaking the Taboo on Israel's Spying Efforts on the United States | World | AlterNet

Scratch a counterintelligence officer in the U.S. government and they'll tell you that Israel is not a friend to the United States.

This is because Israel runs one of the most aggressive and damaging espionage networks targeting the U.S.. The fact of Israeli penetration into the country is not a subject oft-discussed in the media or in the circles of governance, due to the extreme sensitivity of the U.S.-Israel relationship coupled with the burden of the Israel lobby, which punishes legislators who dare to criticize the Jewish state...

Israel's spying on the U.S., however, is a matter of public record, and neither conspiracy nor theory is needed to present the evidence. When the FBI produces its annual report to Congress concerning "Foreign Economic Collection and Industrial Espionage," Israel and its intelligence services often feature prominently as a threat second only to China. In 2005 the FBI noted, for example, that Israel maintains "an active program to gather proprietary information within the United States." A key Israeli method, said the FBI report, is computer intrusion.

Emphasis added. This proves the FBI is "disgustingly ANTI-SEMITIC!"

2.

This article did a good job of factually describing Max Drucker, gathering info publicly available on the net. Then it went off the rails when it went in started a blatant rumor that Max is part of a Mossad Israeli conspiracy with the only shred of evidence that he donates time, money and his home to causes that support Israel!

I did an excellent job of factually describing Max Drucker, because a gathering of information available on the net leads me to conclude that he has some sort of connection to a spying ring. If you bothered to read the article closely, you would see that the conclusion is not based solely on his donation of time, money, and his home to causes that support Israel...it includes such things as

a. He operates what is, essentially, a private corporation devoted to spying on complete strangers for money. That should be the biggest red flag of all.

b. The corporation he operates has a proprietary computer program that seeks to tie anonymous users and anonymous posts to a real world ID. Does Mr. Drucker's background suggest that he was the one to write the program? He has no formal computer programming training that he claims. Either someone handed him the program (which begs the question "who"), or he knows how to do it but won't claim where he was trained to do so (which begs the question "who trained him and why"). In my article Credit Report Scrub: Proposed Questions for Max Drucker, CEO of Social Intelligence Corporation, I point out how he has been interviewed all over the press, even in the NY Times, and nobody bothered to ask him that question.

c. The "Social Intelligence Reports" his company produces tie a person's opinions, pictures, online persona, anonymous posts, etc. to their ability to find a job in the real world. This would also let certain people who hold such information use it for blackmail or extortion. Has Mr. Drucker done anything recently to suggest that he might try to blackmail someone?

d. He was able to get his company deemed a "consumer reporting agency" after review by the FTC:

Staff Closing Letters

This is despite the fact that his company does not follow many aspects of the consumer reporting laws, such as making free reports available to users once a year as Experian would do, or that they do anything remotely related to consumer credit or finance. They are a background investigation company. Why were they categorized as consumer reporting? How can they continue to operate without following the consumer reporting laws? Do you know that the FTC actually sued the Freecreditreport.com people to get them to stop using the name because it was confusing people who wanted to access their free credit reports under the Fair and Accurate Credit Transactions Act (FACTA)? Yet Social Intelligence doesn't even have to provide the reports at all?

e. He was able to land a job fresh out of college with Apple Computers doing some sort of computer work with only a BS in Political Science and Economics from Colorado College. Despite not having a computer background, and despite wanting to work with computers out of college, he studied two disciplines completely unrelated to computers. Why? Both of these degrees are sought out in the intelligence community for intelligence officers (what people normally call "agents"), though. I refer to this as the "doors magically open" phenomenon.

He explained this away in a very old article I found online by claiming to be "a gadget technophile".

f. He was able to obtain quite a bit of investment capital when he started out with his online insurance company. Again, we find someone with no background in operating an online business or insurance experience being able to access enough money in the investment capital world to start an insurance company. Again, "doors magically open".

g. The information he gathered while running Steel Card ended up being transferred to Choicepoint just before the major Choicepoint data leak was exposed. If you have any knowledge of how businesses shield themselves from liability, then you can readily see this for what it is i.e. a business plan for government spying operations.

For you see, governments spy on people. However, for the US government to spy on its own people directly, there will almost always need to be a warrant issued. Remember the guy who found the FBI gps device on his car and posted it on Reddit? His lawsuit affirmed the requirement.

However, private corporations do not have such requirements. They spy and spy and spy until they get caught. Then, when they're caught, the corporation goes belly up and the directors walk away, or they cash out before the SHTF and leave someone else holding the bag. Is it a coincidence that NONE of these organizations are organizing themselves in a manner to avoid double taxation by staying privately held? No, these private spying firms pay a premium under the tax code in order to shield the directors from liability.

And FYI, in order to "pierce the corporate veil" and snare a director, you're often going to have to have some highly incriminating documents lying around.

h. The information gathered by Social Intelligence is valuable...probably more valuable than the Steel Card info. Corporations pay for the Social Intelligence Reports as it currently stands. The information is archived. It provides all sorts of

3.

The only room for pause, that made me think that this scrub guy had any scruples was that he told us that in the interest of protecting minors he was going to withhold publishing information on Mr. Drucker's kids; that was a classy move.

I have no class or scruples. Wrong again. See, for example, my discussions about his wife and his mother, the lesbian Rabbi.

However, the point is that Mr. Drucker has no scruples either. He gathers the same information and seeks to profit off of it. Guys like him ruin lives for money, and they deserve to be punished for it.

I thought it would be nice for someone to compile a report on the guy who compiles reports on total strangers for money. The only difference is that I did it for free and will let anyone look at it.

But to nail this down to specifics, Mr. Drucker gets paid to ruin the job prospects of people for their private, personal opinions during worst economy in generations. His decisions are final and are unable to be audited in practice.

Nobody has any idea what qualifications he has to hold such authority, and nobody has bothered to ask him From my site:

Your organization employs a 3 person review committee to make value judgments about the following types of information uncovered during one of your searches:

a. Racist remarks

b. Clearly illegal activity such as drug use

c. Sexually explicit photos and videos

d. Flagrant displays of weapons or bombs

What qualifications do your reviewers have that would justify relying on their opinions?

What qualifications do they possess to decide that something is "racist"? Are they experts on racism? What about simple prejudice? What if someone is opposed to governmental programs that happen to have a racial impact, like affirmative action?

How would they characterize "clearly illegal"? Where do they draw the line with respect to "clearly illegal"? Do they possess law degrees?

How do they define "sexually explicit"? Is legal counsel consulted to make this determination? If your organization comes across sexually explicit materials involving children, do you save the images in your archives?

Also, this point really bothers the Scrub. What the f!@# is "flagrantly displaying" a weapon, and how does that differ from mere "display"?

If you asked 75 licensed attorneys to define "flagrantly displaying a weapon", you would get 75 different responses.

5.

Scrub has his own axe to grind with Drucker...

I would have never written a single word about this guy until I found a news item claiming that Social Intelligence Corporation was somehow categorized as a consumer reporting agency.

Then when I found out that he tried to shakedown Tesla for a free battery while conducting a coordinated smear campaign, well, that gets added to the big pile of evidence that Mr. Drucker is a poor excuse for an intel operative.

As I have stated repeatedly on my site's Social Intelligence news items (all 7 of them), when, not if, there is a massive data breach, you'll have all the verification you'll need to know that I was right about this guy...that is, unless he goes out of business before then.

 

[doug]

I've only been checking in on this thread from time to time since I figured everything that could be said had been, but the espionage thing is a surprising twist.

 

[Norbert]

DrTaras: The sequence of events published by Tesla clearly shows that pumps and fans continue to run until the battery dies. I don't have the time to dig up the reference, maybe I'll edit the post or someone else finds it, or you could look it up yourself.

Not that I know of. The timeline below only says that the pump and fan were operating at SOC 21%. And it mentions a threshold at 4% on both pages.

Tesla Documents

 

[eledille]

Not that I know of. The timeline below only says that the pump and fan were operating at SOC 21%. And it mentions a threshold at 4% on both pages.

Tesla Documents

The documents clearly state that at 21% SoC the car goes into idle mode when parked due to not being plugged in. From this point SoC continues to decline. Pumps and fans continue to operate as intended to maintain optimal storage temperature, while SoC is declining.

Pumps and fans stopping is not mentioned, which implies that they continue to operate until the battery dies. No matter how you twist the words they cannot possibly have stopped earlier than the next date listed, when SoC is 4 percent.

To me this is absolutely crystal clear, but I'm beginning to understand why lawyers are useful when you need to write a contract, Norbert...

 

[NigelM]

I've only been checking in on this thread from time to time since I figured everything that could be said had been, but the espionage thing is a surprising twist.

Yup, IMO this thread has it all. We've been through sadness, frustration, amazement, insults, speculation, manic laughter, boredom and espionage. Maybe there should be an "Oscar" for best thread?

P.S. As it seems we're now heading towards conspiracy theories....I just realized that *MPT* started the thread and and if you say that quickly it sounds like "empty", as in empty battery?

 

[fraccy]

Hello. I am the blogger you just called "disgustingly ANTI-SEMITIC!" I would like to take a few minutes to respond to this crap.
....
1. If you bother to follow intelligence community news, you would be aware that Israel spies operate on US soil in greater numbers and on a grander scale than any other country the US considers to be an ally:
....
....
This is despite the fact that his company does not follow many aspects of the consumer reporting laws, such as making free reports available to users once a year as Experian would do, or that they do
.....
................
However, private corporations do not have such requirements. They spy and spy and spy until they get caught.
........
As I have stated repeatedly on my site's Social Intelligence news items (all 7 of them), when, not if, there is a massive data breach, you'll have all the verification you'll need to know that I was right about this guy...that is, unless he goes out of business before then.

er... quite.

But you never said, did you know you must keep your battery charged?