Decreasing rated range.

[AmpedRealtor]

How is referring to real world experience and numbers from side by side test 'trivializing'? I do understand your point of view, but I think a 4 min difference, only in the worst case scenario, isn't a big deal. In average real world use it's even less. Time moves on and Tesla is always improving things. They added folding mirrors at some point. They cut the price of the HPWC in half, they added auto pilot hardware which my car doesn't have. Just a few months after I got my car. I will never have auto pilot or any of the added safety features that other got for free. It will continue to happen.

To answer your question about swapping my battery with yours? How much is it worth it to you? If you convince Tesla to do it and make me a reasonable offer, I will trade you my battery for yours.

So many changes to the car in the last 2 years, batterygate is not even on that radar. At the time, of course, it felt like the end of the world to those folks. Maybe it still does, I don't know. The battery has seen at least five revisions in the last couple of years and 99% of owners don't know what version they have and don't care. I visited several superchargers along my recent 1,500 mile roadtrip and I didn't even pay attention to how many kW the car was pulling down. I grabbed some snacks, used the restroom, and the car was charged and ready by the time I returned.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't feel the same way about parking sensors, or the new seats, or the auto-pilot hardware, or the high-res dash screen, or the Primacy tires, or folding mirrors, or any of those hundreds of improvements precisely because of the fact that they are always improving things. But I am bothered because there were early cars with "A" batteries, then newer cars with "B" batteries, then my car comes along with an "A" battery (WTF?), then they go back to "B" and "D" and etc....

How many times has this been an issue for you at the superchargers, and how long did having an A battery delay you from getting to your destination?

 

[tomas]

To answer your question about swapping my battery with yours? How much is it worth it to you? If you convince Tesla to do it and make me a reasonable offer, I will trade you my battery for yours.

Tesla will not entertain this type of swap. Your response is telling, because you want me to pay you to swap my A for your whatever - implying my A is somehow lesser value.

We all know and appreciate that continuous improvement is a good thing. Those of us with A batteries have - for the most part - accepted what we got, and are hopeful that Tesla will follow through on their promise of a battery upgrade program. What sets me (and others) off is posts like yours and @ampedrealtor's from people who have later batteries that trivialize the issue and say it is not a big problem. I planned a Chicago - Arizona trip requiring 10+ charges. The difference in charge rates made it a 3 day vs. 2 day trip. Not an extra day's worth of waiting, but just tipped things over beyond what I'm comfortable driving in a day.

I have a close friend who really wavered on getting his MS because he wanted adaptive cruise. He took delivery about 1 month before the hardware change. Me? I could care less about ACC. But it was meaningful for him. If he was upset about it (which he isn't), I would not say "don't know why you are upset, it's no big deal", I'd say "I know that's important to you, sorry it happened that way, hope you overall enjoy the car enough that it becomes minor in the scheme of things."

 

[qwk]

I don't mean to pour more fuel on the fire, but I charged at the Folsom superchargers(with a D-pack car) quite a few times back when two were only 90kw. When the battery was less than about 50%, the 90kw units were noticeably slower, and the 120kw units were lightning fast in comparison at that lower state of charge level. This was while sitting in the car waiting, so it was probably more noticeable. Having said that, unless one supercharges super often, this isn't going to be a big deal(at least to me it wouldn't be).

 

[AmpedRealtor]

@ Tomas - Nobody is trying to tell you how to feel, I'm just reiterating that continual improvements behind the scenes are also part of the process. Knowing that the car is continually being improved on a level that we don't see or necessarily know about is a good thing, and that might help temper some of the feelings about the batterygate thing.

Apparently there is now a seatgate going on in another thread. Tesla sold next-gen front and rear seats to folks who only received next-gen front seats and the regular back seats. Tesla apparently no longer is offering next-gen rear seats due to negative feedback. Except, well, everyone who ordered and was expecting to also get next-gen rear seats are now not getting them, yet still paying the $3,500 price.

 

[apacheguy]

This discussion is a can of worms that I don't feel like getting into right now. Let me just say this: we can spend all the time in the world arguing over whether it's a 2 min or 15 minute difference. It really just comes down to the SOC range you are looking at. But that is all beside the point.

The point is that Tesla needs to communicate which features are and are not supported. We all paid for cars that receive software updates and Tesla set the expectation that our cars would improve with time. At the time the SpC announcement was made, 100% of us expected that a software upgrade to the SpC rate was to affect all of us. Alas, this was not the case.

Same thing with the next gen seats. Tesla needs to be clearer when setting expectations to avoid misunderstandings.

Side note: Tesla did promise action on this issue here:

Upgrade for 90 limited : Official answer from Jerome Guillen, VP WWSS TM

And a well respected member of TMC had this to say as a response:

Well, it is somewhat news that Jerome is holding himself to "several months." This means that if we get to 2015 and there is no offer of upgrades, Tesla will be in bad faith on this point. Respectfully...

2015 is here and no upgrades in sight. Just saying.

 

[tomas]

@apacheguy, you are correct it is a can of worms, and it is a can of worms that does not belong in this thread, so I'm going to put a lid on it from my end anyway. Can't resist last shot though - I do not think this is a Tesla communications issue as much as a general marketing issue. If they over-communicate prior to adding features, they'll cannibalize sales in anticipation of new features. What they need to do is take the time to develop specific transition/marketing/pricing tactics every time they announce (or otherwise introduce) upgraded functionality. When they announced 120kW charging, they should have immediately contacted the 90kW limited owners with an offer for an "at cost" battery upgrade when Tesla makes such a program available. Then there would have been no commotion. When they began making cars with sensors, they should have provided a program to offer some level of reduced cost retrofit (maybe mobile eye only) to narrow-miss customers. When they determined they could not deliver ordered rear seats and heated steering wheels, the cars should have been delivered with a clear chit for the products when they become available, or a refund if they will not. Shouldn't be up to the customers to figure out if they have the right seats or not. It is more than just communications, it is anticipation of very predictable human behavior, plus specific customer service initiatives, plus communication. I want to see them break the model year paradigm and accelerate delivery of value... but they're going to have to work smarter to do it and be fair to existing customers.

 

[ken830]

I understand this whole "continuing improvement" thing. But our March/April cars getting "A" batteries while January/February cars got "B" batteries a few months earlier is not an improvement. How is that an improvement?

How many times has this been an issue for you at the superchargers, and how long did having an A battery delay you from getting to your destination?

In the past six months, I have driven from the Bay Area to Southern California and back a total of four times. I arrive at each Supercharger with anywhere between 2 and 40 rated-miles. And I sit and wait in the car, literally watching it charge until I have 150% rated-miles to get to my charger. So, I will say that it has probably delayed me 5-10 minutes each time. I usually make four charging stops, so that's 20-40 minutes total. Double that to account for the return trip. Adds about an extra hour of travel time for each trip. Multiply by four trips, and I get like maybe 4 hours of wasted time in the last six months.

 

[AEdennis]

So, in November 8, 2014... I wrote:

Just celebrated my one year today. 90% been around 230-231 and range between 257-258. 24,381 miles as of this evening.

Big drop in my range from 20,000 to 29,000 miles... I wrote a post in my blog.

D Battery Pack, 29,000 miles. Range charge down to 251, it used to be around 260 about 9,000 miles ago. and 257-258 two months ago. I'm in Southern California and it hasn't really been that cold.

14 miles is around 5% of Rated miles. I'd just like to have some guidelines on how much to save for a replacement pack after it drops all the way down to unusable, if not request that Tesla publish guidelines or a warranty.

 

[dalamchops]

So, in November 8, 2014... I wrote:



Big drop in my range from 20,000 to 29,000 miles... I wrote a post in my blog.

D Battery Pack, 29,000 miles. Range charge down to 251, it used to be around 260 about 9,000 miles ago. and 257-258 two months ago. I'm in Southern California and it hasn't really been that cold.

14 miles is around 5% of Rated miles. I'd just like to have some guidelines on how much to save for a replacement pack after it drops all the way down to unusable, if not request that Tesla publish guidelines or a warranty.

At what value do you deem the battery unusable?? I mean you'll probably never see the battery dip below 200mi on a full charge.

 

[AEdennis]

At what value do you deem the battery unusable?? I mean you'll probably never see the battery dip below 200mi on a full charge.

If the SCs along my way are every 100 miles, I could be fine... Just take a heck of a long time to get from point A to point B... 200 miles might be ok... I'm just asking for guidelines on how much to save.

I think with the addition of Rancho Cucamonga and Primm for the drive to Vegas from LA and the addition of more SCs on the route for the Bay Area from LA, I can be pretty well served... However, I'd like guidance and a warranty. The competition have an 80% of capacity in 8 years thing... So, 20% loss for 300 Ideal miles IS 260 Ideal miles or if my original rated is 265 miles, 20% loss would be 212 miles....

 

[David99]

In the past six months, I have driven from the Bay Area to Southern California and back a total of four times. I arrive at each Supercharger with anywhere between 2 and 40 rated-miles. And I sit and wait in the car, literally watching it charge until I have 150% rated-miles to get to my charger. So, I will say that it has probably delayed me 5-10 minutes each time. I usually make four charging stops, so that's 20-40 minutes total. Double that to account for the return trip. Adds about an extra hour of travel time for each trip. Multiply by four trips, and I get like maybe 4 hours of wasted time in the last six months.

First of all, those numbers don't even add up. The maximum time difference in a case where the difference between A and D pack is most seen is 4-5 min, not 5-10 min. Second, you don't know how fast a D pack would have charged. You can't just assume ideal numbers. I have a D pack and for the past 3 months I have never had full 120 kW at any SC. It seems to always start with 100-105 kW at the most and then goes down quick. So don't assume D packs are perfect.

I understand the frustration to a degree, but I don't understand when numbers are made up to make the problem appear bigger than it is.

 

[tomas]

First of all, those numbers don't even add up. The maximum time difference in a case where the difference between A and D pack is most seen is 4-5 min, not 5-10 min. Second, you don't know how fast a D pack would have charged. You can't just assume ideal numbers. I have a D pack and for the past 3 months I have never had full 120 kW at any SC. It seems to always start with 100-105 kW at the most and then goes down quick. So don't assume D packs are perfect.

I understand the frustration to a degree, but I don't understand when numbers are made up to make the problem appear bigger than it is.

Most thorough published test here corroborates Ken's numbers and also maybe explains David's. Biggest variation will be at low SOC, and Ken is starting "between 2 and 40 rated miles", so will have => the 6 minute difference shown in the charge-off. 6+ is between 5 and 10 minutes per charge, so Ken's numbers are not inflated. Test also shows that if you start charging with 100 miles or more, the 120 kW capable cars will only draw a max of around 100 kW because of the taper curve. So, if David is starting out with >100 miles that may explain why he doesn't draw 120 kW. So can we please have PEACE here? There is a difference, it's not huge, and it is Ken's prerogative to be upset about it - and Tesla's prerogative to eventually provide an accommodation.

 

[rdrcrmatt]

51,000 miles, 100% range charge this morning. Took ownership on 7/25/2013

291 idea
249 rated

 

[jerry33]

38,000 miles !00% range charge yesterday. In service Mar 2, 2013.
297 Ideal
257 rated. Note that the rated stayed 257 for several miles (didn't think to check ideal).

 

[AEdennis]

What packs do you have rdrcmatt and jerry33?

 

[jerry33]

What packs do you have rdrcmatt and jerry33?

B pack.

 

[mknox]

Okay, somebody help me understand this:

My car seemed to be "stuck" here for more than an hour. Could have been closer to 2 hours. You can see the charge rate had tapered to 18 amps, but the Rated Miles were not moving. To be honest, I started getting worried about over-charging and unplugged before it actually completed. Should I have let it sit for who knows how much longer to complete?

 

[tomas]

@mknox normal phenomena. Some think this is when it balances. Unplug if you need to go. You won't get any more miles.

 

[mknox]

@mknox normal phenomena. Some think this is when it balances. Unplug if you need to go. You won't get any more miles.

Thanks. I was at work (needed the range for an after work excursion) but didn't need to shut charging off when I did. I was worried about it just sitting there, apparently "full" but still cranking 4 kW at it.

 

[qwk]

Thanks. I was at work (needed the range for an after work excursion) but didn't need to shut charging off when I did. I was worried about it just sitting there, apparently "full" but still cranking 4 kW at it.

Your battery is pretty out of balance if it sits like that for that long.