Challenge accepted, enhanced summon release?

[TMeister]

OK folks, we all know polls don't get a lot of respect here. You should have asked it this way... no that way. Wait, the poll doesn't have the response I want to select... blah, blah, blah

Enhanced summon has generated a fair number of thread responses here going back on forth. So I challenged @diplomat33 on it and got it thrown back on me. Here goes....

 

[Eno Deb]

Second option maybe, third option definitely.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

[diplomat33]

OK folks, we all know polls don't get a lot of respect here. You should have asked it this way... no that way. Wait, the poll doesn't have the response I want to select... blah, blah, blah

Enhanced summon has generated a fair number of thread responses here going back on forth. So I challenged @diplomat33 on it and got it thrown back on me. Here goes....

Thanks for starting the poll.

I voted #2 (3 months in 2019.28) because by the time the roll out reaches the masses, it will probably be closer to 3 months, I think. And the question was when will it reach the masses, not when will it start to roll out.

 

[Daniel in SD]

You kind of have define what enhanced summon will be. There is a zero percent chance that it will be released as described on the website.
If you are responsible for it hitting something then that would seem to require the user to inspect around the car before activating it.

 

[diplomat33]

You kind of have define what enhanced summon will be.

Not really. We have Tesla's definition of Enhanced Summon on the website and we've all seen the early access videos of Enhanced Summon in action. So we know what Tesla defines as "Enhanced Summon". That's what Tesla will be releasing. And that's what the poll questions is about. The poll is not asking us to define "Enhanced Summon".

There is a zero percent chance that it will be released as described on the website.

The Early Access Enhanced Summon already does what the website says, albeit slowly. So there is a non zero chance that Enhanced Summon will be what the website describes.

 

[Daniel in SD]

The Early Access Enhanced Summon already does what the website says, albeit slowly. So there is a non zero chance that Enhanced Summon will be what the website describes.

It says that it will find you anywhere in the parking lot and leaves out the part where you have to make sure it doesn't run into anything. The only way to do that is to have a clear view of the car's surroundings. I predict a bunch of threads saying "my car ran into the bumper of a lifted truck!" with the usual subjects saying "you're an idiot for not reading the manual where it clearly tells you that you are responsible for monitoring the system!"

 

[rowdy]

I predict a bunch of threads saying "my car ran into the bumper of a lifted truck!"

Will be good to also see how big an issue the camera blindspots are. Nothing quite like releasing a new feature to half a million cars where everyone can force an update and rush to test it out. Teslas will be roaming car parks like a zombie apocalypse

Hoping it happens sooner rather than later so can assess how practical (or possible) FSD really is going to be with the current sensors.

 

[Daniel in SD]

Will be good to also see how big an issue the camera blindspots are. Nothing quite like releasing a new feature to half a million cars where everyone can force an update and rush to test it out. Teslas will be roaming car parks like a zombie apocalypse

Hoping it happens sooner rather than later so can assess how practical (or possible) FSD really is going to be with the current sensors.

This is one of the situations I'm worried about: streamable.com/c5hbu
It should be possible to avoid if they've gotten the neural nets to calculate distance accurately.

 

[rowdy]

This is one of the situations I'm worried about: streamable.com/c5hbu

Wow. Obviously that's going to need to be 100% sorted prior to enhanced summon. Bounding boxes on cars/trucks need to be 100% accurate.

Car parks have kids/prams. Would hate for anyone to get hit or pinned to another vehicle just because AP can't judge distances/objects correctly. Low speed doesn't really help in such situations.

 

[diplomat33]

It says that it will find you anywhere in the parking lot and leaves out the part where you have to make sure it doesn't run into anything. The only way to do that is to have a clear view of the car's surroundings. I predict a bunch of threads saying "my car ran into the bumper of a lifted truck!" with the usual subjects saying "you're an idiot for not reading the manual where it clearly tells you that you are responsible for monitoring the system!"

I am still having difficulty imagining how the car crawling at 2-5 mph with 360 ultrasonics is going to hit the bumper of a lifted truck. Even now, my ultrasonics go off everything I get close to anything. And when I have used the regular summon, the car automatically stops when it gets close to anything. Enhanced Summon may have issues to solve, but I doubt this will be one of them. Now, other vehicles may hit your car but that's different.

 

[diplomat33]

Wow. Obviously that's going to need to be 100% sorted prior to enhanced summon. Bounding boxes on cars/trucks need to be 100% accurate.

Car parks have kids/prams. Would hate for anyone to get hit or pinned to another vehicle just because AP can't judge distances/objects correctly. Low speed doesn't really help in such situations.

low speed absolutely helps in those situations. Remember the car also has 360 ultrasonics which will always detect objects that are very close to the car and at very low speeds, the car will be able to stop in time.

 

[rowdy]

low speed absolutely helps in those situations. Remember the car also has 360 ultrasonics which will always detect objects that are very close to the car and at very low speeds, the car will be able to stop in time.

Excellent point. I forgot about those. Last line of defence My only question would then be why didn't the ultrasonics kick in and stop it running into the truck? Blind spot?

 

[Daniel in SD]

low speed absolutely helps in those situations. Remember the car also has 360 ultrasonics which will always detect objects that are very close to the car and at very low speeds, the car will be able to stop in time.

Autopark and summon hit things and they use the ultrasonics. The cameras are necessary to avoid hitting things. Watch the video where the car hits the rear deck of the truck I posted above. It's a very difficult problem to solve.
I'm hoping the work they're putting into summon will make autopark work well. I feel like that would be way more useful to most people.

 

[diplomat33]

Excellent point. I forgot about those. Last line of defence My only question would then be why didn't the ultrasonics kick in and stop it running into the truck? Blind spot?

ultrasonics are very short range. The diagram on the Tesla website says the range is only 8 meters. So they are great for very low speeds like parking but they won't help if you are traveling at driving speeds. Even in that video clip, if the car was going say 20 mph, by the time the ultrasonics bounce off the wheel of the truck, the car will hit the rear deck.

 

[Daniel in SD]

ultrasonics are very short range. The diagram on the Tesla website says the range is only 8 meters. So they are great for very low speeds like parking but they won't help if you are traveling at driving speeds. Even in that video clip, if the car was going say 20 mph, by the time the ultrasonics bounce off the wheel of the truck, the car will hit the rear deck.

Just do a search for autopark accident and you'll see a ton of examples. There are quite a few blind spots that the ultrasonics have.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Even in that video clip, if the car was going say 20 mph,

Pretty sure the car was not going 20mph. And it seems like in that situation the ultrasonics would have known something was there but not known it was in the "danger" zone due to the overhang. I fail to see how this problem would cease to exist in parking lots somehow. You could increase the "danger" zone size when using Summon I suppose (so that it does not get as close to such things as it does on the freeway), but then I feel like the car would never move.

You seem very confident in these ultrasonics. Aren't they only on the bumpers, or are there more elsewhere (I know there are cameras of course)? Even if the ultrasonics were working perfectly and none of the above problems exist, I would worry about sideswiping a pole, or even an object that moves in a parking lot. Like someone that starts backing out of their space just after the front bumper ultrasonics have swept past it. If they hit the Tesla as they were backing out it would likely be their fault, but don't think that's going to make anyone feel any better. It's the sort of accident a human driver stooping to the level of driving around a parking lot would be able to avoid because they might see reversing lights, movement in the mirrors, etc.

 

[diplomat33]

Pretty sure the car was not going 20mph. And it seems like in that situation the ultrasonics would have known something was there but not known it was in the "danger" zone due to the overhang. I fail to see how this problem would cease to exist in parking lots somehow. You could increase the "danger" zone size when using Summon I suppose (so that it does not get as close to such things as it does on the freeway), but then I feel like the car would never move.

You seem very confident in these ultrasonics. Aren't they only on the bumpers, or are there more elsewhere (I know there are cameras of course)? Even if the ultrasonics were working perfectly and none of the above problems exist, I would worry about sideswiping a pole, or even an object that moves in a parking lot. Like someone that starts backing out of their space just after the front bumper ultrasonics have swept past it. If they hit the Tesla as they were backing out it would likely be their fault, but don't think that's going to make anyone feel any better. It's the sort of accident a human driver stooping to the level of driving around a parking lot would be able to avoid because they might see reversing lights, movement in the mirrors, etc.

The ultrasonics are on the bumpers but they are all around the car, providing 360 degree coverage. But ultrasonics are only one sensor. Cameras also play a major role. In fact, I believe cameras are the primary sensor used in Enhanced Summon. The ultrasonics are the back up.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

The ultrasonics are on the bumpers but they are all around the car, providing 360 degree coverage.

Hmm. I guess we'll see. I know that is what Tesla's diagram says (linked below). I just have some doubts about how well they work right next to the rocker panel between the front and rear door.


Summon

 

[diplomat33]

Hmm. I guess we'll see. I know that is what Tesla's diagram says (linked below). I just have some doubts about how well they work right next to the rocker panel between the front and rear door.


Summon

I get that people are skeptical. That's fine. But I think folks need to have a little faith that Tesla engineers have thought it through. They are the ones working with the hardware every day. They know what the cameras, ultrasonics and radar can do and what the software can do.

In any case, we'll see when Enhanced Summon is released.

 

[Daniel in SD]

I get that people are skeptical. That's fine. But I think folks need to have a little faith that Tesla engineers have thought it through. They are the ones working with the hardware every day. They know what the cameras, ultrasonics and radar can do and what the software can do.

In any case, we'll see when Enhanced Summon is released.

All we know is that it is not release worthy yet and that they are under a lot of pressure to release it. The ultrasonics are only on the bumpers and they also can’t detect things above the bumpers. Plenty of people have found that out with autopark. Using the cameras for depth perception is very tricky. Humans have the advantage of being able to see where things are outside of the car before getting in to drive. I feel like autopark is a much easier problem because the car is moving past the parking space so it is possible to create a 3D map of the area using the cameras. It seems like with advanced summon the surroundings will often change between when you park and when you enable summon. Say there’s a stroller sitting next to the doors, there are no ultrasonics there. Somehow you have to figure out where it is from the two side cameras. It seems possible but very tricky.