Carbotech Brake compound thoughts

[strider]

Will Telsa install them? I'd imagine any performance shop that knows how to lift a Lotus could do it as well.

They have in the past but I've read here that SC's aren't installing any 3rd party parts. But some have also said that Roadster owners get more leeway. But yeah, any shop that can work on a Lotus Elise can do this - brake calipers are the same.

 

[smorgasbord]

They have in the past but I've read here that SC's aren't installing any 3rd party parts.

I was just turned down by Tesla Palo Alto for requesting Carbotechs being installed.

BTW, has anyone else had their rear pads worn to replacement thickness by 30K miles? Seems early given all the regen back there.

 

[wiztecy]

Since mine have an occasional rattle, I took a look at the website provided by Doug_G. From the accompanying photos, it looks like the pads get applied in a different location than I was expecting. It shows them being applied to the calipers adjacent to the edge (not the back, like with the orange sticky brake quiet goop) of the brake calipers. Take a look, maybe I'm missing something.

These pads are not applied to the back side of the brake pad but rather the sides on the caliper that are perpendicular to the pad plane. I believe I had the OE ones still on mine, possibly these are thicker? I was thinking of a pad that's applied to the rear of the pad. Possibly there isn't one?

 

[augkuo]

There's a gap where the arrows are pointing so basically these things fill the gap -

Since mine have an occasional rattle, I took a look at the website provided by Doug_G. From the accompanying photos, it looks like the pads get applied in a different location than I was expecting. It shows them being applied to the calipers adjacent to the edge (not the back, like with the orange sticky brake quiet goop) of the brake calipers. Take a look, maybe I'm missing something.

 

[dsm363]

Since Roadsters are no longer made, maybe we could get Tesla to approve one of these brake pads? I doubt it but might be worth a shot.

 

[wiztecy]

I was just turned down by Tesla Palo Alto for requesting Carbotechs being installed.

BTW, has anyone else had their rear pads worn to replacement thickness by 30K miles? Seems early given all the regen back there.

Possibly the rear brakes are doing the brunt of the work since that's where the majority of weight is. The Roadster doesn't appear to transition weight to the back to front on hard braking as aggressively as cars that have engines / front weight bias and a softer front suspension.

Also the Roadster/Elise front calipers have an anti-rattle mechanism from the factory. Possibly you can bend it to add more spring tension placed upon the pad's caliper set pins.

 

[mnx]

Aggressive driving + traction control kicking in frequently?

I was just turned down by Tesla Palo Alto for requesting Carbotechs being installed.

BTW, has anyone else had their rear pads worn to replacement thickness by 30K miles? Seems early given all the regen back there.

 

[hcsharp]

BTW, has anyone else had their rear pads worn to replacement thickness by 30K miles? Seems early given all the regen back there.

The OP had less than 30k when he was metal-to-metal. My rear pads needed replacing at about 23k. I was shocked at how fast they wore out considering I don't use them very much. My front OEM pads were wearing slower but I replaced them much earlier with Carbotech.

 

[Marius]

I can not understand this. I am at 144k kilometers and still the OEM pads, thickness rear wheels 6 mm and front wheels 7 mm. Apparently the rear wheels detoriate quicker due to the weight of the battery pack.
I drive a 2.0 delivered november 2009

 

[Mark77a]

Another original brake change on the way ... resurface (turn/skim) the rotors too ?

I gathered from Tesla Tech's (here in the UK) that a common brake fault is sticky calipers (particularly the rear) .. this is due to:
a) lack of use - due to regen, especially compared to donor lotus which get much more use
b) damp weather / salty roads / corrosion
c) lack of lubrication preventing the caliper to centre/slide.

I had a sticky rear caliper at last service (3rd year) which wore one of the pads more than the others.

Even after service with brake issues highlighted, fixed and new fluid, I'm not happy with the braking performance and 'bite' beyond regen.
So I'm planning an carbotech upgrade (even tho carbotech is less common in UK - you guys 'testing' it is more important :wink:.) maybe i'll import USA > UK ?

However, Apart from running on the Original Pad's, my discs look glazed. Carbotech (and generally) recommend skimming discs to remove glazing before fitting new pads.
"2. Do I have to resurface (turn) the rotors, or get new rotors?
If you have had another manufacturers brake pads on those same rotors; then you will ABSOLUTELY have to replace or resurface (turn) those rotors before installing the Carbotech brake pads."

Question: for you guys who have improved your brakes with replacement (eg carbotech pads) .. when you replaced the pads, did you skim the discs ? (or replace them ? or even roughen the surfaces ?) if so, did you use one of the brake disc skimming services that do this without removing discs from car ?
Or
Do the Carbotech skimming recommendation be ignored due to the abrasiveness of the ceramic based compound cleaning off any glazing ?

 

[Doug_G]

Tesla recommends replacing the rotors, but it is in general not necessary. Bedding the brakes properly usually does the job - removes old compound and coats the rotors in the new stuff.

That said, I can't say if that will be sufficient if you really cooked the rotor. I'd suggest trying it and see if the rotor gets clean, and if not then replace it.

I don't think you could successfully machine them - they are pretty lightweight, i.e. thin.

 

[wiztecy]

?

However, Apart from running on the Original Pad's, my discs look glazed. Carbotech (and generally) recommend skimming discs to remove glazing before fitting new pads.
"2. Do I have to resurface (turn) the rotors, or get new rotors?
If you have had another manufacturers brake pads on those same rotors; then you will ABSOLUTELY have to replace or resurface (turn) those rotors before installing the Carbotech brake pads."

Question: for you guys who have improved your brakes with replacement (eg carbotech pads) .. when you replaced the pads, did you skim the discs ? (or replace them ? or even roughen the surfaces ?) if so, did you use one of the brake disc skimming services that do this without removing discs from car ?
Or
Do the Carbotech skimming recommendation be ignored due to the abrasiveness of the ceramic based compound cleaning off any glazing ?

A "cold cut" of the rotor just skims the top of the rotor, you're not there to cut out any grooves (since my rotors were groove free), but rather to just clean them up.

I did a "cold cut" of my front and back rotors. I highly recommend this. What it does is removes the glaze off the rotor, secondly it takes off that stupid lip that's at the very edge of the rotor which makes doing your next brake job easier, lastly and most importantly it trims down any imperfections where the rotor has warped. My rears were slightly warped at 6,000 miles when I did my upgrade to the Carbotechs. With any warp your brake pedal will pulse with higher speeds and brake application, also you're not going to have peak performance on braking.

I'm not sure if you don't clean / cut your rotors down if the transfer film of new brakes that aid in bedding them with a new / cut rotor (which they say turns sticky upon heat) will be there or transfer properly or if this film is over top of the glaze. But Doug appears to have a positive experience with it, so you'll just have to feel it out for yourself. At the minimum have the rotors checked to see if they're warped.

I honestly have never cut my rotors on a brake job unless the rotor is really shot, but my Roadster is no ordinary car, its rather quick, so I really want to have the braking as optimal as possible.

http://www.tirerack.com/FAQ/results.jsp?category=Brakes

"What is brake pad bedding-in and why do I need to do it with new pads?

"All brake pads must be bedded-in with the rotor surface they are mated with. The bedding-in process involves a gradual buildup of heat in the rotors and pad compound. When properly done, the bed-in will distribute a thin layer of the brake pad compound, called transfer film, onto the rotor surface. This transfer film forms a protective coating on the rotor surface where it comes into contact with the brake pads. As it heats up, the film becomes sticky and allows the pad and rotor to generate the friction and grip required to stop the vehicle without creating hot spots on the rotor surface. The bed-in process normally takes about 300-400 miles of normal driving to complete."

 

[Mark77a]

Thanks for feedback, guys.

I've got zero wear on the rotors, no ridges, no warps, ( obviously ... I'm not trying hard enough ;-) ) .. but they do look glazed, so I think I'll enquire about getting a minisule, in-situ, skim (like 0.1 - 0.25mm) to just break the glaze and hopefully, effectively start 'as new' with some carbotech pads.

 

[hcsharp]

Thanks for feedback, guys.

I've got zero wear on the rotors, no ridges, no warps, ( obviously ... I'm not trying hard enough ;-) ) .. but they do look glazed, so I think I'll enquire about getting a minisule, in-situ, skim (like 0.1 - 0.25mm) to just break the glaze and hopefully, effectively start 'as new' with some carbotech pads.

I spent a few minutes with wet and dry sandpaper on each rotor. I sanded in a cross-hatch pattern. This took the glaze off and any rust. Then I bedded them in properly and they work great. If you turn them, use ProCut which cuts them on the axle. It eliminates any run-out from the axle and bearings. Most major auto manufacturers are doing this now to most of their new cars including Lotus who used Pro Cut on the Roadster rotors.

 

[wiztecy]

If you turn them, use ProCut which cuts them on the axle. It eliminates any run-out from the axle and bearings. Most major auto manufacturers are doing this now to most of their new cars including Lotus who used Pro Cut on the Roadster rotors.

Never knew and great tip, thanks!

 

[driver_EV]

Thanks all for the information in this thread. I just replaced pads at 25,000miles with Carbotechs.
The original rear pads were worn thinner than the front pads, but still had ok thickness and would have lasted for perhaps another year or so.

After bedding the new pads I do seem to have a nice improvement in braking effect. The car still does not stop like a BMW, but with regen it really feels pretty good. I kept the original rotors, did not turn them or such. The job seems to have come out just fine.

 

[wiztecy]

Love my CarboTechs, they totally improve braking with the Roadster when dry. Now there's a new problem to attack. The crappy stopping power of the Roadster when wet. Its like going back to the old Brembo's you're hammering on the brakes when its raining out and the car's still skating forward. My guess is that the issue is with the rotors now. I think the drilled rotors with the rain is causing all the brake dust accumulated in the stupid useless drilled holes to slime up and now run out then being dispersed evenly across the braking surface. I'm feeling that moving to the custom slotted rotors (if it comes to a reality) will help alleviate the issue. Here's a thread on those rotors, reply in that thread if you're interested in a set:

Custom Aluminum Rotors - A possibility

And if that doesn't fix it 100%, I'd then add the big brake AP dual piston brake mod to the front. I'm sure the Roadster would then stop in the rain. Here's a pic of the relocation brackets for the front:

Here's the dual piston brake Calipers:

Right now I'm not happy nor confident in the abilities of the Roadster to stop when wet with stop or aftermarket brake pads.

Otherwise with AD08s on the back and AD07s on the front the Roadster sticks very well in the rain, does not want to hydroplane across water crossings running across the road and a very predictable car. However what scares me the most now is someone braking hard for no good reason in the rain who's in front of me and the Roadster skating with no ability to stop into the rear of the car. And of course in that case it would be the fault of the Roadster owner who rear ended the car in front of them in terms of damages.

If it stopped raining and the rotors had enough heat to burn off the moisture / slime then the stopping ability is back to normal with the Carbotechs.

The Lotus Elise forum also indicates this is an issue for them as well, even with a lighter car. They also mention that changing out the pads the issue still exist. And of course they have drilled rotors. Some in the forum were saying its the water film that's over the rotors, but its not. I've not seen any other car that I've driven where the braking has been reduced so much in the rain. I have to say at least least 65-75% braking capability is lost in the rain!

**Only thing is I think we need bigger / heavier braking on the rear in my own intuition for that I've seen warping of my rear rotors, not my fronts, which indicate they're working harder keeping up with the braking dynamics. Also since our cars are so low, weight favored in the rear and low, the traditional front suspension dive and weight transfer and weight transfer over the front wheels is not as significant as a traditional forward weight favoring ICE engine vehicle. My gut intuition here really is pushing me to beef up the rear braking. But until we get real data its all theory and one's own interpretation. **

 

[djp]

Strange, I haven't noticed that. I've been through some torrential rain storms, and the Carbotechs have grabbed just as hard in the wet as when dry. The rotors do get rusty after I wash the car, but one hard stop is enough to clean them off.

When I swapped the pads I did notice that all the wear was on the rears and the front pads were barely touched. Not sure if that's by design, or if my diverter valve needs adjusting.

 

[augkuo]

Wiztecy commutes on one of the most dangerous highways in California so coupled with downhill, high speeds and bad drivers you definitely need good brakes. I guess an experiment would be to clean the rotors well and see if the stopping power increases?
Otherwise there's not much you can do with a thin film of water between the rotors and brake pads - even a slotted rotor will have dust filling them in. For you probably getting bigger rotors/calipers would work better.

Strange, I haven't noticed that. I've been through some torrential rain storms, and the Carbotechs have grabbed just as hard in the wet as when dry. The rotors do get rusty after I wash the car, but one hard stop is enough to clean them off.

When I swapped the pads I did notice that all the wear was on the rears and the front pads were barely touched. Not sure if that's by design, or if my diverter valve needs adjusting.

 

[Doug_G]

I'm not really convinced that slots or holes are the answer. Holes are great places for the cracks to start. Slots and holes reduce the pad contact area. It's not clear that either really help with cooling or clearing gunk.

A solid rotor has much to recommend it.