Carbon Fiber Rims

[lolachampcar]

I believe 20" rear and 19" front.... would have to go back and look at the order
19 X 8.5
20 X 11

If I can get anywhere near 10 lbs per wheel off each corner I will be thrilled.

 

[ifung90]

lolachampcar,

10 lb a wheel is easy ... almost any forged one piece wheel or flow form wheel can get you that result.

21" rim weighs 35 lbs each. My 20x10.5" AG M621 flowform wheel weighs as follow:

20×10 / 25.2 lbs
20×10.5 / 26.4 lbs

WITHOUT it being carbon fiber, it's already a 10 lb saving per corner.

check this link for all the sizes and weight. 19x8.5 and 19x9.5 is 12-13 lbs lighter than stock respectively.

AVANT GARDE WHEELS / M621 ROTARY FORGED

 

[lolachampcar]

Not off a 12C with superlite wheels they can't Your suggestion would be called adding weight.

Already have TSWs on the Model S for a reduction of about 10 lbs per corner. The nice thing about those is I get the stickier better wearing Pilot Super Sports and the weight reduction for about half of what Tesla thinks their 21" package is worth(less). Funny how Tesla's pricing and business practices only come into view when there is a direct comparison available. It is a good thing a majority of their efforts are with novel product.

 

[Ulmo]

I just read this thread. I'm surprised I'm considering this Carbon Fiber stuff for rims. But, it's looking like it might be a fit for me on my upcoming Tesla S or X, so for sanity I'm going to ask some questions. Here goes ...

If this is what I value:

1. Noise reduction (this is a very big deal for me)
2. Vibration reduction (comfort -- also big for me)
3. Safety (this will trump anything if it is real)

Then, would CFs be better than aftermarket aluminum? I already learned the value of going aftermarket aluminum to deal with the many potholes that chew up my wheels, so that's a money savings. But if I can also get reduced noise, that alone would make me want CF; it's looking like we don't know the cost difference CF-aluminum considering CF is "better able" to handle potholes, and for now, I don't mind being a guinea pig if I clearly win on sound and maybe a few other things too.

I would lean toward the smallest rim diameter (19" on model S, 20" on model X, depending on which I get), for meeting my stated goals as above and below.

Also:

4. Pot hole, rough road, resilient --- unknown, mentioned above, willing to find out once.
5. Frequent regular mountain driving --- but not trying to win any races. I really would rather sacrifice 1% handling quality to get 20% comfort, noise and cost improvement by going smallest rim diameter. Do I NEED +1" diameter (over minimum diameter) for regular mountain driving? I don't want it unless I need it. If it will save any of my life, health, someone's life or serious cost savings, I need it, otherwise, I'm not trying to win any race (even though I usually come in before anybody who's not trying to win).
6. What's the theoretical maximum speed for 19" rims (model S)/20" rims (model X)? E.g., 130MPH going straight for a minute, or a duration measure like 120MPH for an hour going straight? If I ever even considered this, would I HAVE to +1" or +2"??

and I don't really care about:

A. Acceleration speed
B. Looks (whatever gets the least attention would be my preference -- will get painted)
C. Being first, or seeing who's first
D. Honestly, I will already be energy starved, so what's a few more watt hours. (But if we could get light strong CF aero wheels that save 6% energy, then I'd go for that self made aero wheels )

 

[Andyw2100]

I just read this thread. I'm surprised I'm considering this Carbon Fiber stuff for rims. But, it's looking like it might be a fit for me on my upcoming Tesla S or X, so for sanity I'm going to ask some questions. Here goes ...

If this is what I value:

1. Noise reduction (this is a very big deal for me)

I don't know anything about CF wheels.

But I'm here to tell you that I am reasonably certain that the majority of the bothersome sound I hear in my P85D with 19" wheels is not road noise from the tires, but rather wind noise. And as little as I know about CF wheels, I'm pretty sure they're not going to help with that.

 

[Xenoilphobe]

I have carbon rims on both my road bike and my motorcycle. You will notice a decrease in road noise. But the wind noise in a tesla is significant. Especially when exceeding the speed limit. (Not that I would know)

 

[FlatSix911]

Ulmo, I have some experience with CF wheels ... see my response below:

I just read this thread. I'm surprised I'm considering this Carbon Fiber stuff for rims.
But, it's looking like it might be a fit for me on my upcoming Tesla S or X, so for sanity I'm going to ask some questions. Here goes ...

If this is what I value:

1. Noise reduction (this is a very big deal for me) You will see a improvement with CF.
2. Vibration reduction (comfort -- also big for me) You will see a improvement with CF.
3. Safety (this will trump anything if it is real) Pro - very high failure threshold limit. Con - major failure at limit.

Then, would CFs be better than aftermarket aluminum? I already learned the value of going aftermarket aluminum to deal with the many potholes that chew up my wheels, so that's a money savings. But if I can also get reduced noise, that alone would make me want CF; it's looking like we don't know the cost difference CF-aluminum considering CF is "better able" to handle potholes, and for now, I don't mind being a guinea pig if I clearly win on sound and maybe a few other things too.
CF will be more expensive than cast alloy, and equal to the price of forged alloy wheels.

I would lean toward the smallest rim diameter (19" on model S, 20" on model X, depending on which I get), for meeting my stated goals as above and below.
The smaller wheel diameter is best for low rotational mass, better acceleration and handling.

Also:

4. Pot hole, rough road, resilient --- unknown, mentioned above, willing to find out once. CF is very strong under stress.
5. Frequent regular mountain driving --- but not trying to win any races. I really would rather sacrifice 1% handling quality to get 20% comfort, noise and cost improvement by going smallest rim diameter. Do I NEED +1" diameter (over minimum diameter) for regular mountain driving? I don't want it unless I need it. If it will save any of my life, health, someone's life or serious cost savings, I need it, otherwise, I'm not trying to win any race (even though I usually come in before anybody who's not trying to win). You do not need to go plus 1 - stick with the stock diameter.
6. What's the theoretical maximum speed for 19" rims (model S)/20" rims (model X)? E.g., 130MPH going straight for a minute, or a duration measure like 120MPH for an hour going straight? If I ever even considered this, would I HAVE to +1" or +2"?? Maximum speed is not correlated with wheel diameter.

and I don't really care about:

A. Acceleration speed -
B. Looks (whatever gets the least attention would be my preference -- will get painted)
C. Being first, or seeing who's first
D. Honestly, I will already be energy starved, so what's a few more watt hours. (But if we could get light strong CF aero wheels that save 6% energy, then I'd go for that self made aero wheels )

 

[Xenoilphobe]

I’m offering this as humble advice since I doubt I would participate in an initial group buy of carbon wheels if there is one, although I might be tempted if they turn out to bring handling benefits or if they look really great on the car. I don’t want to be the guinea pig for a durability test.


I would go with 20” wheels, which seems like a good compromise between 21s that are too easy to damage and 19s that seem like they would give up a little handling sharpness. Keeping the same section widths for the front tires (or all in a square setup) means 245/40-20s.


My P85D was delivered with 21” wheels and a square setup, but frankly I would want the looks of a staggered setup as long as it didn’t damage the handling. I assume wider rears would just add a little understeer, which isn’t a big deal since the MS is not designed for track days. And while this takes away tire rotation from front to back, the cost of buying new tires a little sooner because of asymmetric wear is small compared with the cost of moving to carbon wheels in the first place.


I would want to pick the rear section width to make sure tires were available in my favored brand, Pilot Super Sports. PSS is available in 245/40ZR20XL (99Y) for the fronts, and they also offer 275/35ZR20XL (102Y), which would be my choice for the rears.


This leaves wheel sizing. There is a range of possible rim widths, but looking at the Michelin website the “measuring rim width”, which I assume is what they think is optimal for their tires, is 8.5” for the chosen fronts and 9.5” for the chosen rears.


So that’s what I would want to get: 20 x 8.5” front and 20 x 9.5” rear. I don’t know what offsets would give best clearance, although my guess is 35mm front (5mm less than for stock 8.5" rim width 21" wheels) and 30mm rear (10mm less than stock staggered 9" rim width 21" wheels), nor do I know about any other parameters that would need to be specified.


That’s my two cents.

You two cents are appreciated. I went with 20 x 9 with 35ET all around and will be wrapping them in 245/40ZR20XL (99Y)s ... Michelin PSS

 

[sillydriver]

You two cents are appreciated. I went with 20 x 9 with 35ET all around and will be wrapping them in 245/40ZR20XL (99Y)s ... Michelin PSS

I'm looking forward to hearing what you think of them and seeing pictures on your car.

 

[Ulmo]

Thank you, Andyw2100, Xenoilphobe, and FlatSix911. This shall make for an exciting next couple of years while I put that together.

 

[ifung90]

Best wheel size are 20x9 et35 and 20x10.5 et35 with 245/275/40/20 tires (respectively).

 

[lolachampcar]

if you have no interest in rotating tires front to rear

 

[Xenoilphobe]

I definitely plan to rotate - these tires are +$300 each.

 

[TSLA Pilot]

lolachampcar,

10 lb a wheel is easy ... almost any forged one piece wheel or flow form wheel can get you that result.

21" rim weighs 35 lbs each. My 20x10.5" AG M621 flowform wheel weighs as follow:

20×10 / 25.2 lbs
20×10.5 / 26.4 lbs

WITHOUT it being carbon fiber, it's already a 10 lb saving per corner.

check this link for all the sizes and weight. 19x8.5 and 19x9.5 is 12-13 lbs lighter than stock respectively.

AVANT GARDE WHEELS / M621 ROTARY FORGED

View attachment 110080

ifung90 reported: "21" rim weighs 35 lbs each."

I just weighed a new 21" (8.5" width) at 33.5 lbs; just FYI. Perhaps the 21 x 9 is what was being referred to?

Regardless, whoever buys the first ESE ES1 Carbon wheels, please let us know how they work out! At $2,200 for the 21" wheel they're very tempting--if they work well.

 

[Xenoilphobe]

Awesome thanks for the info!

So the 21 x 8.5 fronts are 33.5 lbs (sans rubber, TPMS and Center caps) and the rear 21 x 9 staggered are 38? (thats what came on my 2014 P85+).

I will do a detailed video posting once I receive the wheels, I will weigh each corner with TPMS, tires, and center cap and do the same thing with the ESE's. My 21's are off the car right now buried in my garage somewhere wrapped in rubber and in their Telsa winter coats (tire covers)

I may get vbox or borrow one once I get the wheels as well. My neighbor sponsors some events at Summit Point in WV and we may make a trip up with the stock 21", stock 19" and 20" ESE's to run a test. He owns an instructional academy for high risk driving environments and i am hoping he can assist. It would be great to be his apprentice for a day!

 

[TSLA Pilot]

"So the 21 x 8.5 fronts are 33.5 lbs (sans rubber, TPMS and Center caps) and the rear 21 x 9 staggered are 38? (thats what came on my 2014 P85+)."

Yes, forgot to say that the 33.5 lbs was for "naked" wheels without TPMS, center cap or anything else. I've heard that Tesla has made changes in the wheels over time, FWIW. These were made in 2015 and were new, in box.

 

[sillydriver]

Question for those who have looked into the ESE wheels: have they sold many sets, so they are being used on a number of cars on the road? I'm not trying to be negative, and raise the question because I'm actually tempted to get them, although not to be a first-adopter. The ESE wheels are lighter and appear to have a less substantial construction (fewer, narrower spokes) than their competitor's more expensive wheels which were chosen as an OEM option for the Mustang. I guess I'm looking for some comfort that ESE did their finite-element modeling correctly so the wheels really have an appropriate safety margin against catastrophic failure. Did any of you who have spoken with the people at ESE get a sense of comfort that they really know what they are doing with respect to automotive wheel structural design? I do give them credit that they know what they're doing as far as carbon composite manufacturing goes. Thanks.

 

[lolachampcar]

silly,
I share your concerns although I do not have as many reservations regarding the structural design as I do production quality and manufacturing technique. ESE is using resin transfer molding which is basically loading a male/female mold with dry cloth then injecting heated (lowers viscosity) resin into an evacuated mold whilst mixing the hardener at the point of injection. They are doing this in a pressurized autoclave. I've used parts manufactured in this way and they are low weight (very near ideal cloth to resin ratios) while providing excellent mold cycle times. Material placement is very well controlled as the material is compressed slightly into the mold as it is closed. Running the process in an autoclave allows for the added benefit of high ambient pressure preventing bubble formation.

In short, ESE's production approach is excellent. I have a sample rim heading my way over the next week or so for NDT. I'll likely use x-ray to confirm material lamination especially at the spoke to rim junction. If all looks good, my oder will continue as placed.

I too am concerned over the lack of road use track record. As I posted on another forum, I'm taking one for the team on these rims and giving them a try. If they work out as advertised, they represent excellent value for the car these are going on; enough so to warrant taking the risk and giving them a try.

We will see.

 

[Xenoilphobe]

I am been in dialog with them for months on email and telecom. They have been engineering and designing carbon fiber components since 2006. Their wheels are in use on the Bugatti Veyron, Porsche, Corvette, McClaren, etc - They are US based engineering, manufacturing and design firm (the wheels you are riding on now are cast Mexican specials (pull them and look for the stamp on the back).

You should also look at the Ford testing of the carbon rims they used - the ran them over multiple curbs - with no damage to the rims. (tire was a different story). Carbon is super strong due to the filament design.

I already ordered them, when I get them I'll meet up with you - I'm ten minutes from you in Clifton VA- just have to wait until April. arrrrggghhhhh

Net Net, I'll be the guinea pig and as LOLChampcar says - I'll take one for the team. FYSA the hub is actually titanium, the rest is NGAP processed resin made with DSM’s Daron[SUP]®[/SUP] 200 RTM Resin - http://www.compositesworld.com/blog/post/smart-lightweighting-at-acce

Once I get the wheels I may also have some friends at Pratt & Miller Engineering take a look at them too. http://prattmiller.com

 

[lolachampcar]

If they are on a McLaren, the owner does not participate on the forums. Further, I worked with ESE on both offset and center cap fitment which indicated to me that these were the first rims ESE had done for the 12C.