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Cadillac ELR (Converj)
- Thread starter Takumi
- Start date
mknox
Well-Known Member
Many people don't care about those things. I don't. 99.9% of the time I'm alone in my Model S, so an ELR for me would still have too much passenger and luggage space. I also don't really care that it would take 2 or 3 seconds longer to get to 60 under full throttle because I don't do that anyway. To me, it's the same argument that people use against buying a big pickup truck for the one time they may have to move cargo. Similarly, why buy a sub 5 second car for the one time you may want to do that? (comment on price below) I haven't driven an ELR, but our company Volt is plenty quick for my style of driving.
There are also those here that seem to want to preach that an ICE is evil under any circumstance (sorry if I'm exaggerating). GM has a lot invested in their Voltec system just as Toyota has a lot invested in their Hybrid Synergy Drive, and it makes sense that they want to recover their investments by flogging those systems for as long as they can. I applaud GM for the Volt and ELR and for exploring pure BEVs with the Spark EV. I meet people every day who are still concerned about BEV range. If a Volt or ELR gets people that can't quite make the leap to pure BEV, what's wrong with that? Most Volt owners that I know challenge themselves to drive electrically as much as they can... which can only be a good thing.
For me, I was hoping the ELR would have had a bit better EV range than the Volt and yes, GM came in with an ELR price that was too high, but I see market forces dealing with that over time. If the ELR's electric range could match my daily driving requirements, it would be a serious contender for me. I've seen one prowling around my neighborhood (coffee shop drive-thru the other day) and it is one sharp looking car in person.
The criticism was for the price and market, it is sad performance even if you rarely use it. In accident avoidance the extra speed can come in handy sometimes. If the rule is nothing below 8 seconds is needed (which you are right, for commuting it probably isn't) the there are a lot of cars out there that waste power and fuel to get below 8 seconds. It does matter to many buyers in this price range even if they never use it. If you had two very similar cars and one was 0-60 in 6 seconds and the other was 9 seconds which would you choose?
The goal is to drive electric and for many the Volt and ELR accomplishes that. There is nothing wrong with that and I applaud it. I just question Blasphemy's assertion that it is a better electric car and a better driving experience. An ICE is definitely not evil and will be necessary for decades to come. The transition is happening though and the Volt and ELR help in that.
My criticism has been for the price, the ELR has weak performance in acceleration and EV range. You pay 85% of the price of a 60 kWh Model S but have 15% of the EV range. Yes you have a nicer interior and a few driver assistance packages the Model S lacks but one buys the ELR primarily because it has a plug and a certain amount of EV only mode.
Well that is certainly true.
and given that I have a P85, I certainly do use the power.
I always thought it was weird that Tesla seems to be the only company that's realized that putting a big battery in a car can solve people's range concerns and their power concerns in one swell foop. Why do the folks that actually know how to make luxury cars (Lexus? BMW? Cadillac?) not just put a big battery in their luxury cars? Build an Escalade with a big battery and you'll have the most luxurious BEV on the market in a car that is in most ways better than the ICE version of the Escalade. You'll have adaptive cruise control, collision avoidance, built-in TVs for the back seat passengers, etc, and your 20 MPG vehicle can suddenly do 90+ MPGe. When you try to compete on the cheap end, your power sucks, your range sucks, and it's tough to make a profit on any vehicle under $30k.
Anyway, Blastphemy stated that he doesn't care about the power so to him that didn't matter.
and to those that say that if you pay more than $50k for a vehicle it should have more power, well why not if you pay more than $50k for a vehicle it should come with adaptive cruise control and collision avoidance? The only ones that don't are Teslas and pseudo-race-cars like the Dodge Viper.
Don't get me wrong, I love my Tesla. I just think that this forum as a whole is being a bit unfair to someone who had different priorities when buying his car than most of us had when buying ours.
All people are saying is that there is performance expectation and that the $30k premium was excessive for the changes made from the Volt. Sure, $30k may make sense in low volume car, but the volume target was GM's decision.
The ELR drives well and has a very nice interior. The Volt-like performance is adequate for many people, but will disappoint those expecting a sport sedan. I don't have a problem with plug-in hybrids as long as they have decent EV range - they are an excellent stepping stone to pure EV driving. My main beef with the ELR is the stupid pricing - it is not a good value for the money.
The Model S is absolutely missing features a car in its price range should have or that a lot of people expect at least. Just as people expect ACC in an $80k car, they expect power that matches a V6 Accord too. Tesla is working on addressing the missing features. I doubt as will see a sub 6 scones ELR in the next two years.
Not everyone expects that feature in an expensive car. I don't and I wouldn't pay extra for it if it was an available option.
Don't generalize.
That's why is said 'should have or a lot of people expect'. I honesty don't miss most of those desired features mainly because I've never owned a car with them. There are many BMW, Lexus and Mercedes owners who have had these features and want them. Tesla should at least make them part of an option package.
The ELR has most of the tech toys some people want in this price range. It has that advantage assuming they are features you want.
I did read your post carefully. You contradicted yourself in my opinion (it's an opinion, not a fact). If you make such rare trips why lug around an ICE that you will use only 1 or 2 times a year based on your 36 mile daily commute and have the loss of cargo space, added maintenance,etc.
In such a case a BEV, whether it be a Leaf, Tesla, i3 etc would be a better choice in many respects.
As to who would spend that much on a car and then rent a car for a trip? Who knows. I have driven mine on a 1000+ mile trip with no problem for FREE so I have no reservations about using it just like you would use your ICE equipped ELR. That being said, many people do rent a vehicle for trips and not just because they have a BEV as their daily driver. Sometimes it's space or towing capability they need for a trip that justifies it.
How about the other points? I am curious about your vertically challenged friends and irresistibility to those of the fairer sex.:tongue:
rolosrevenge
Dr. EVS
For the record I have no problem with Plug-in Hybrids like the ELR. They fit a need of some people and reduce oil dependence. The ELR is a fine car for for that purpose, though overpriced in my opinion, but that's fine. My only real beef is when people say call it an EV with a range extender instead of a Plug-in Hybrid. That's all. The biggest shame is that the market is so abysmally small for EVs beyond the Leaf like ones (80 mile range economy cars). There's only two 4 PHEVs on the market and only 1 EV that can do more than 200 miles.
mknox
Well-Known Member
To put it another way, if I could have got an identically equipped P85 for what I paid for my S85, then sure. BUT, if I could have got a better equipped Model S (insert laundry list of luxury car features here), I would have traded off that additional cost against a less expensive, lower performing drivetrain in a heartbeat. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I consider myself a car enthusiast but not necessarily a "performance" enthusiast. My first brand new car at age 21 was a Chrysler Cordoba (loved that car!). The ONLY thing the ELR can't give me is enough all-electric range. I think we all agree the ELR price is too high, but again I expect market forces to address that.
Blastphemy
Member
188 ELRs sold in July 2014
Cadillac sold 188 ELRs in July, so I guess those $10-20k discounts are helping. That's an almost 100% increase from the 97 sold in June (which, if I remember my high school math properly, means ELR sales increased by 194% in July). If you remember, June was also nearly a 100% increase from the 52 sold in May. So the trend is definitely in Cadillac's favor (assuming the discounts remain intact or go even lower).
I sure feel bad for anyone who bought an ELR (especially a Saks Fifth Avenue version!) in December/January at full price. I'm doubly glad I leased, now! I wouldn't be surprised if some of those early adopters swear off Cadillac for screwing them and knock on Tesla's door for their next car.
Pretty sure Mark Reuss cares what people think about the ELR's price, now!
Cadillac sold 188 ELRs in July, so I guess those $10-20k discounts are helping. That's an almost 100% increase from the 97 sold in June (which, if I remember my high school math properly, means ELR sales increased by 194% in July). If you remember, June was also nearly a 100% increase from the 52 sold in May. So the trend is definitely in Cadillac's favor (assuming the discounts remain intact or go even lower).
I sure feel bad for anyone who bought an ELR (especially a Saks Fifth Avenue version!) in December/January at full price. I'm doubly glad I leased, now! I wouldn't be surprised if some of those early adopters swear off Cadillac for screwing them and knock on Tesla's door for their next car.
Pretty sure Mark Reuss cares what people think about the ELR's price, now!
I don't think they can be mad at Cadillac. They, the individuals who purchased one, felt it was worth it at the time, but not enough other people did. Cadillac had to do something to move the product. The value just wasn't there at the initial price and Cadillac would have been stupid to do anything other than lower it.
People will get mad at anything. Look at the I believe first iPhone when they dropped $200 off the price right after launch. People were angry about that but you can't please everyone. They certainly did the right thing by dropping the price to exactly what most people here were saying it was worth. Somewhere in the 50s for starting price.
I do think its bad for those "early adopters" but its a free market so if they overpaid they did so by choice.
Maybe the price correction is the motivating factor since pretty much every review noted it was overpriced considerably. It is my favorite current caddy styling-wise.
I am one of those early adopters that bought the ELR in March. Am I unhappy with Cadillac because of the recent discounts...of course not. I was coming out of an EXT and looking at the '15 Escalade when I was shown the ELR. I have always felt that the ELR price structure shocked so many folks because they all were coming from the $35k to $45k camp. If you owned or have owned a car that pushes $100k than the price for the ELR was very attractive even before the this recent discount period. When I priced out the Tesla Model S with everything on it that I wanted the price was just a bit south of $110k. Again...the ELR, even with the trade-offs of two less doors, virtually no backseat and slower 0-60 times, STILL looked good at the price it was at. Also, the supercharging system that Tesla is developing is STILL in its infancy and there is an awful lot of America that cannot be reached in a Tesla without some major travel planning and extra time expended for same. I was, at my age, just not up to the time demand that driving a Tesla requires once you leave its basic 200 mile range. If the supercharging system is ever actually realized to the extent it it is needed for simple long distance driving...than the Tesla will certainly be an attractive option. But the more cars Tesla builds and introduces the busier these stations will become and that requires even larger stations to be built so that the inventory in the market can be serviced without extensive waits to recharge. What Tesla WILL do is move us to a more centralized form of living. We will no longer venture beyond the range of our vehicles unless we can do so without worry, stress or safety concerns. The ELR allows me to continue the way I have driven for the last 50 years on this planet. The Tesla would not have done that. Is the Tesla the perfect car to renovate the new environmentally conscience America....nope. Is it PART of the system that will certainly help us achieve some energy independence....absolutely. When changes are coming it always helps that it is done in stages and not slugged at is in one big swing. The Tesla owners have a wonderful car that has a ton of upside....but it is only a part of the upcoming picture of transportation in America. And, even at $80k....so is the ELR.
Glad to hear the ELR is working for you. I haven't had to restrict my life or driving because of the Model S range though. In fact I'm taking many more day trips of 100-250 miles round trip because of the low cost.
Just curious. Why would you price out the P85 or P85+ versus the ELR? Would think the 60 or 85 kWh versions would be more appropriate and still out accelerate the ELR.
You are right that no one car works for everyone at this point and it will take both to move us off oil as much as possible.
I've actually driven more with the Model S than with my previous BMW 335d or anything I've owned before it. I've done about 18k miles in less than a year, where I put about 13k/year on my BMW. You feel less bad about packing on the miles knowing that you don't have an upcoming oil change and not having to pay $4+/gallon for diesel. I'd be even more hesitant to make road trips, personally, in a Volt or ELR as there's a well defined line where the cost to drive it ramps up very quickly as you transition from using cheap electricity to expensive gas. With the Model S, the farther I drive, the cheaper it gets on a cost per mile basis because Supercharging (and really even much of the L2 chargers) is free. There are a lot of people claiming "This is what will happen" and the evidence so far just isn't backing that up.
Regardless, I'm glad you're happy with your ELR. I'd like to drive one sometime.
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