C7 Corvette or Used Roadster?

[Doug_G]

My wife and I were in a parking lot recently where a new C7 was circling around looking for a place to park. It was far, far louder than any other car or truck that came in or out. My wife found it quite obnoxious. I'm hearing impaired so it made it impossible for me to converse with anybody.

Was it actually stock, or aftermarket exhaust? Also some cars have baffles that can be switched in/out of the exhaust - quiet mode and "power" mode.

 

[Daniel R. Lucas]

EDIT: Wikipedia for the win on the differences between Roadster models!

Is there any place where I can read about the difference in the models of the Roadster? From what I've seen, there is a 1.5, 2.0, and 2.5. Where can I find the options that were offered?

Another source I found great when I was looking for my Roadster was this thread:

Roadster History North America

Thank you, that's helpful. I'm still on the edge: snag a 1.5 for a bargain around $55-65k or spend the $75-80k on a 2.5 sport? For some reason it seems like there are fewer 2.5 sport Roadsters available for sale.

 

[ibcs]

A friend of mine with a 1.5 roadster switch keys and he drove my 2.5 for a 20 minute drive. We got out the car and could not believe that absolute similarity in ride and acceleration characteristics. Mechanically there are differences which others can expand upon, but the 1.5 was extremely nice. Biggest difference was audio without a sub, but his is much nicer after he had the double din installed with the Parrot radio. My 2c is the 1.5 is a bargain!

 

[Daniel R. Lucas]

A friend of mine with a 1.5 roadster switch keys and he drove my 2.5 for a 20 minute drive. We got out the car and could not believe that absolute similarity in ride and acceleration characteristics. Mechanically there are differences which others can expand upon, but the 1.5 was extremely nice. Biggest difference was audio without a sub, but his is much nicer after he had the double din installed with the Parrot radio. My 2c is the 1.5 is a bargain!

While I'm sure the ride and acceleration are similar, there are some key differences between the 1.5 and 2.0 or even 2.5:
In particular,
- Improved seating
- sleeker exterior
- black forged wheels option (I like this a lot)
- 7" touchscreen with backup camera
- improved interior sound reduction
Add in the 2.0 improvements also:
- more sound reduction
- .2s faster 0-60
- improved heating/vent/ac
- adjustable suspension
- central video display screen
- improved audio
- I personally like the addition of the glove box. Where would I store the vehicle registration documents?

While I think it's still fantastic to have the ability to purchase the 1.5 at around $50-60k, those upgrades seem worthwhile to me for an extra $20-30k.

Also, I'm not sure if Tesla still supports the double din upgrade on 1.5 models. The link no longer works on the Tesla website.

 

[ibcs]

Thank you for the detailed list of differences. The Double Din upgrade is available from Al & Ed's out of Hollywood, California.

 

[hcsharp]

While I'm sure the ride and acceleration are similar,

No. In your previous post you were comparing the 1.5 to the 2.x Sport. If you have the adjustable suspension the ride and handling are better.

... there are some key differences between the 1.5 and 2.0 or even 2.5:
In particular,
- Improved seating
- sleeker exterior
- black forged wheels option (I like this a lot)
- 7" touchscreen with backup camera
- improved interior sound reduction
Add in the 2.0 improvements also:
- more sound reduction
- .2s faster 0-60
- improved heating/vent/ac
- adjustable suspension
- central video display screen
- improved audio
- I personally like the addition of the glove box. Where would I store the vehicle registration documents?

While I think it's still fantastic to have the ability to purchase the 1.5 at around $50-60k, those upgrades seem worthwhile to me for an extra $20-30k.

Also, I'm not sure if Tesla still supports the double din upgrade on 1.5 models. The link no longer works on the Tesla website.

You missed another important difference. Much wider choice of tires on the 2.x models because they have a tire learning feature.

The improved HVAC would probably make a big difference for you in Baltimore where it gets both cold in the winter and hot in the summer. I don't think it's a big deal in places where the weather doesn't reach extremes very often.

Also, the black forged rims fit on any model. You can buy those separately.

 

[wiztecy]

Don't forget the TPMS problems on the 2.x also and the PEMs clogging up. Zero TPMS issues on the 1.5 and its known to have a race quality system in there. You can't buy the TPMS tool that clears the error and have to Tesla to reset it. I believe they charge you for this service. Yes 1.5's are limited to tire sizes and rim selections on the 1.5, so that is negative. The 1.5's have excellent and expensive Airplane connectors for the PEM (high quality for sure), the PEM is said to be built better, and the 1.5 has a real shifter and a carbon fiber center console, as apposed to a push-button drive selector and a leather wrapped plastic console. I personally hate push button for drive selection. I found the LEDs that illuminate it to be too bright at night, even when the speedo cluster dimmer is dialed all the way done. The shifter on the 1.5 is easy to find, no need for lights and another reason why I like it. When I shift into reverse/drive I don't have to look down, its easy to find and make the right drive selection.

I didn't like the 2.x seats, but that's a personal thing. It makes you sit higher since there's more cushion in the ass part. I'm 6' tall and I sit perfectly in the 1.5 seats, any higher and I can't see the speedo cluster. Sides of the 2.x seats are grippier for holding you into turns.

I have to say like the lack of a glove box, really all you can fit in that thing are gloves a pair of sunglasses it seems. I keep my reg/docs in a small zip pouch that slides nicely under the drivers seat. The 1.5 has a huge tray to put lots of things on and store. Its easy to access and get to. I can put things in whenever, even driving without being distracted. With that it gives a very simple clean look to the Roadster.

I have the simple Blaupunkt radio option in my 1.5, no 7" screen that you can't see a darn thing in. I always found LCDs to bleed out in sunlight and think they're a bad idea for a convertible sunny car. The Blaupunkt is simple, easy to use, sound goes up with speed so you don't have mess with the volume. I'm going to put a Nakamichi simple head unit I have in the Roadster to play with the looks and see differences in sound. Again a simple head unit. I'm not looking for this car to be setup for an audiophile. Its not the car for that. Its design was to be simple and clean so I want to preserve that. I will look at putting larger Focal speakers in as well as tweeters, that should improve sound as much as I need it. But I always have random people say how good the sound is in the car so its not all that bad. Again not audiophile quality.

The 1.5 has no separate 12 volt motorcycle battery to drive its 12v aux system, its built into the main battery pack. That's good and bad. The 12v battery in the 2.x's appear to have a life of 2 years, in the 1.5 there's nothing to maintain there. However if there's any issue with the 12v system where its related to the main pack, the pack needs to be dropped to fix.

>>
Add in the 2.0 improvements also:
- more sound reduction
- .2s faster 0-60
- improved heating/vent/ac
- adjustable suspension
- central video display screen
- improved audio
<<

There's some wrong things here, there's a mix of the "sport" things in this list which I think he got confused. I'll try to clarify the best I can.

- more sound reduction

I believe the 2.0 had sound reduction done, felt wheel well liners and possibly other sound muting material. Possibly more in the 2.5. I'm not bothered by it in the 1.5, like the car being lighter as Lotus's goal is which is make it light, simple, quick and handle well. I was in 1.5's that had the sound kit done, just wasn't sold on it to make the mod.

- .2s faster 0-60

That's only in the sport, but how much of a difference is that? Is it worth it? Sports will hold a higher resale value since there's fewer of them than.

- improved heating/vent/ac
That was a 2.x improvement.

- adjustable suspension
You had to order that in the 2.x's or it came standard with the sports, not all of them came with that unless you paid for it.

- central video display screen
Yes but it was useless, again too small and LCD. People typically pull the stock unit out and upgrade it.

- improved audio

Audio was not improved, but there was a subwoofer option that you could purchase as an option.


There's many talks between the likes/differences between the 1.5/2.x Roadsters. Just search the forum. Again it comes to one's personal preference, likes and dislikes.

As a 1.5 owner I have no complaints and very happy to have one. I also threw on aftermarket Nitrons for the Lotus Elise and the Roadster handles amazing now. Stock shocks suck and I have to say very dangerous if you drive the Roadster the way its ment to be driven.

Also I don't think any Roadster owners think I'm bashing here unless its a beer bash We all love our Roadsters, it shows, we're passionate about them and love to talk about them. Sometimes we cant stop! We also help each other understand, clarify, and learn more about them together, so if / when you pick one up you become part of the family.

 

[dhrivnak]

To me another plus of a 1.5 is the STD mode and Power mode give the same acceleration. On the 2.x you need to be in power mode to hit the 3.9/3.7 0-60. Not that standard mode is slow but it does add .2 seconds from what a couple of rangers have said. While I rarely use it i like having full power anytime. With the 1.5's like the 2.x power mode also allows you to run the pack hotter to run at full power longer.

Another plus in the 1.5 is I can adjust the charge time and current easily through the window or by opening the door. With 2.x it moved to the center so you need to climb in. But a plus is the passenger can see the display.

The sound proofing can be added to the 1.5 both sound reduction stage 1 and two.

I too like the 1.5 seats better and the 1.5 has an adjustable lumbar support I like on longer trips. But seats are very personal.

 

[Daniel R. Lucas]

To me another plus of a 1.5 is the STD mode and Power mode give the same acceleration. On the 2.x you need to be in power mode to hit the 3.9/3.7 0-60. Not that standard mode is slow but it does add .2 seconds from what a couple of rangers have said. While I rarely use it i like having full power anytime. With the 1.5's like the 2.x power mode also allows you to run the pack hotter to run at full power longer.

Another plus in the 1.5 is I can adjust the charge time and current easily through the window or by opening the door. With 2.x it moved to the center so you need to climb in. But a plus is the passenger can see the display.

The sound proofing can be added to the 1.5 both sound reduction stage 1 and two.

I too like the 1.5 seats better and the 1.5 has an adjustable lumbar support I like on longer trips. But seats are very personal.

I thought Standard Mode on the 2.x is 3.9s 0-60, and Performance Mode gets 3.7s 0-60?

I wasn't aware of the sound reduction stage 1 and 2. Where is this done and how much is it to get these installed?

 

[dhrivnak]

I thought Standard Mode on the 2.x is 3.9s 0-60, and Performance Mode gets 3.7s 0-60?

I wasn't aware of the sound reduction stage 1 and 2. Where is this done and how much is it to get these installed?

No the Sport version (a 20K option) will do 3.7 0-60 the non sport version is 3.9 sec. But I am told you need to be in the performance mode. I believe this as I raced against a sport 4 times in a 1/4 mile and came out on top until they switched to performance mode. But in a 1/4 we went from me being 1 car length ahead to them being less than a car length ahead , and I had a passenger. So I reiterate the differences are small.

Tesla was offering the sound reduction as an upgrade I think 3k for stage 1 and 1.2k for stage 2. You can also do it yourself but involves a long weekend as you literally tear the car apart.

 

[Daniel R. Lucas]

To me another plus of a 1.5 is the STD mode and Power mode give the same acceleration. On the 2.x you need to be in power mode to hit the 3.9/3.7 0-60. Not that standard mode is slow but it does add .2 seconds from what a couple of rangers have said. While I rarely use it i like having full power anytime. With the 1.5's like the 2.x power mode also allows you to run the pack hotter to run at full power longer.

Another plus in the 1.5 is I can adjust the charge time and current easily through the window or by opening the door. With 2.x it moved to the center so you need to climb in. But a plus is the passenger can see the display.

The sound proofing can be added to the 1.5 both sound reduction stage 1 and two.

I too like the 1.5 seats better and the 1.5 has an adjustable lumbar support I like on longer trips. But seats are very personal.

Hold on a sec - what's the point of Performance Mode on the 1.5 if it's the same speed as Standard Mode? Are you sure that Standard Mode on the 1.5 yields a 0-60 of 3.9s?

 

[wiztecy]

Performance mode on the 1.5 and 2.x allows the pack to heat up while charging, it won't run the HVAC system. Higher pack temps allows more amps to be drawn allowing the motor to spin quicker and faster. While driving performance mode (on the 1.5 & 2.x), this mode will allow the pack to not run the HVAC system keeping those temps higher and allowing the pack to retain performance longer from the heated pack. Standard mode will run the HVAC when needed, managing the pack temps so it stays cooler.

 

[shrink]

Performance mode on the 1.5 and 2.x allows the pack to heat up while charging, it won't run the HVAC system.

Are you sure about that? I could have sworn that the COOLDOWN mode via OVMS alternates between Performance and Range charging for more aggressive cooling.

EDIT - from the OVMS page:

Once we detect that the HVAC has stopped, we try to start it again. The logic at the moment is to switch to performance mode for ten seconds, then back to range mode, once every minute until the HVAC starts again. The _best_ way of starting the HVAC is to stop and start the charge, but that is painful on the contactors, so we don't do it. Switching Range->Performance->Range seems to be the second best.

 

[wiztecy]

I'm certain that switching to Performance mode with the OVMS algorithm allows the pack to slightly heat up allowing the HVAC in Range mode to trigger. Otherwise the HVAC system won't kick back on until a threshold in temps / time has elapsed if just sitting in Range mode and the HVAC has activated at least once. But looking at what Mark wrote, his intention is to save the contactors and that was nice/very brilliant of him (Thanks Mark!). Everytime the contactor opens/closes you get energy crossing over and "contacting" at two points, there also can be some arching that is like a little welder eating away slowly at these two points. Not only that, you also have moving parts, and anything the moves will eventually wear (especially where there's no lubrication). So what Mark did, instead of hastily wearing down the contactors, chose to switch to perf mode for a very short period of time. And again I suspect there's a change the Roadster HVAC system detects, I'm thinking temps but Mark knows exactly what happens there, and the HVAC system will kick on again when Range mode is activated (switching over from perf mode) without closing and reopening the contactor. I've shut the charge off and back on in Range mode when manually doing a cooldown and felt very sketchy about it. I upgraded my contactor in my Zero motorcycle, so I know how these things look and what wear/abuse they take, and felt that wasn't the right thing to do for long term viability of the contactor on the Roadster. Thanks for bringing it up

Again charging in performance mode, the #1 goal is to get the pack as hot as possible.

More on Performance Mode:
Performance Mode Questions

 

[dhrivnak]

My understanding of performance mode is a little different. My understanding is that it raised the temperature limits on the battery so it will run hotter reducing the need for HVAC. You rarely run into thermal limits unless running hard like on a track day and or very hot temperatures. With STD mode you may get two laps in but in Performance you would get in 3 or 4 laps.

Then I was told on later Roadsters STD mode reduces max amps which is why one sees a SLIGHT reduction in power. But for both models the pack temperature thresholds are raised in performance mode.

 

[mnx]

Why are you disappointed in your Model S at the track? It goes quarter mile in 12.4 secs, what's disappointing with that? lol

Well obviously you can only do a fairly small # of laps without needing to charge. The bigger problem however is that the car cuts the max power in half after ~1.5 laps of a road course. Having ~320kW is fun, but 160kW is a little boring in comparison...

 

[James Anders]

Road course track performance of electric cars (even hybrids) is one area that needs some work. The Corvette (or other ICE sports cars) have the clear edge here.

 

[wiztecy]

Road course track performance of electric cars (even hybrids) is one area that needs some work. The Corvette (or other ICE sports cars) have the clear edge here.

Formula E's will help bridge this gap fast contributing to the consumer market. Look how long it took ICE engines to be dialed in. They didn't get it the first time around. Racing is a HUGE contribution in the robustness, performance and endurance of a "motor" and its system. This includes advancements in transmission design, suspension, as well as aerodynamics.

Also don't you remember Plasma TV's? What did they evolve into? Do you like LCD TV's? Low power, great picture, and a gazillion times better for picture quality and energy consumption as compared to tube TV's, even when compared to Sony's awesome Trinitrons. Its the basic rule of evolution of any technology. It needs to be proved, accepted, and then once accepted (with demand by the people), tuned and made even better.

Electric vehicles are doing very well for for the amount of attention(R&D)/money thrown at them. Its only going to get better and cheaper from this point on.

As for my Roadster I'm very happy with it and its met, even exceeded my expectations for an electric vehicle on the road in terms of a daily commuter car, very low maintenance car, as well as a super high performance car on the street. And believe me, I love the fun I have on the street. In all honesty, track days are only enjoyed on weekends (unless its your full time job). And any regular ICE car will NOT survive on the track for a long duration without eventually failing. If you're racing on the track, you need to build your ICE engine for the track. Look at people who race as a hobby on the weekends, ask them, they've modified their ICE engine to handle the cooling so the engine doesn't fail. Even the C7 will fail if not modified for the track if it kept running as stock.

But to enjoy a car that's so quick, predictable, nimble, agile, and responsive (especially after you've learned the car and tuned it) as a daily commuter, the Tesla Roadster is best thing I ever could ask for. To drive this car twice a day, its the utmost joy in the world and I never grow old of it. Its the car where you don't mind at all taking the long way home due to a traffic snarl, ok.... so I have to take the twisties home. Bummer, right. Not! And how much did this hard acceleration cost me to commute like a Bandit at times, a full $1.70 for a 70 mile, adrenaline rushed and g-force filled round trip to work and back home. [(who needs drugs when you own a Tesla Roadster!) FREE Adrenaline and Endorphins for all who take the ride].

I have faith in E's on the track, its only cooling they need to address and its not all that complicated when the right amount of engineering is focused on it.

 

[Doug_G]

Road course track performance of electric cars (even hybrids) is one area that needs some work. The Corvette (or other ICE sports cars) have the clear edge here.

To be fair, most ICE street cars also need some work to survive on the track. Corvettes get hot, everywhere! My C6 now has larger brakes, brake ducts, transmission cooler, differential cooler, and I'm about to add an oil cooler.

 

[wiztecy]

To be fair, most ICE street cars also need some work to survive on the track. Corvettes get hot, everywhere! My C6 now has larger brakes, brake ducts, transmission cooler, differential cooler, and I'm about to add an oil cooler.

C7, Z51, auto trans overheating issues on track

Also take a track car and put it on the street, what happens.... failure usually with overheating from not moving fast enough to allow proper airflow and circulation to cool things down the way it was designed to be used for.

You can't have a streetable car used on the track and a track car used on the street. It doesn't work. You can't get the best out of it in both worlds, only some.

I strongly feel electric vehicles will have the upper hand here once dialed in over time from trial and error. Its a simpler system to refine with leverage on other components in the system from the ICE racing circuit.