Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Brexit

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
Boris goes to the Queen tomorrow.

My update (agnostic on elections, timelines, referendums, leadership contests):
No deal - 30%
Hard Brexit (Canada or similar) - 15%
Theresa May deal with alterations - 35%
Norway/Soft Brexit - 5%
Remain following referendum - 15%
 
Boris playing tough with EU. This is gonna get messy.

My update (agnostic on elections, timelines, referendums, leadership contests):
No deal - 40%
Hard Brexit (Canada or similar) - 10%
Theresa May deal with alterations - 30%
Norway/Soft Brexit - 5%
Remain following referendum - 15%
 
Boris playing tough with EU. This is gonna get messy.

My update (agnostic on elections, timelines, referendums, leadership contests):
No deal - 40%
Hard Brexit (Canada or similar) - 10%
Theresa May deal with alterations - 30%
Norway/Soft Brexit - 5%
Remain following referendum - 15%
The problem with Boris/Trump is that they believe if only you show that you are "tough" others will fall in line. But that is not what happens in reality, others also want to show that they can be tough too. Several wars have started because of this kind of miscalculation.

BTW, I can recommend Brexitcast, which has been entertaining & informative, to anyone looking for a podcast on Brexit.
 
By my count Boris has now given three headline speeches as PM, most recently yesterday presenting his industrial strategy in Manchester.

He’s made much about his commitment to “Net Zero” but most strikingly about the need to transition to EVs and zero emission buses and an apparent willingness to borrow for long term infrastructure. This includes “full fibre broadband rollout”.

Though in Parliament he did respond positively to a nonsense comment about the promise of hydrogen fuel from an MP in an oil&gas constituency and another about the importance of nuclear to the zero carbon energy mix.

I don’t suppose this thread is monitored by Elon’s associates but he should be lobbying for a meeting with the new PM. Sounds to me that there’s definitely an opening to be made straight away on the luxury car tax for EVs (which punishes even unoptioned SR+ Model 3s) and post Brexit on eliminating the import tariff and VAT for EVs. But there also could be a fruitful conversation on the potential of grid scale battery storage versus probably unbuildable nuclear, the reason why hydrogen is a dead end and how to help legislate and regulate for FSD when free of the EU’s current restrictive approach.

Oh, and what Starlink could do for his universal fibre speed internet pledge and what might be done in return. He apparently has quite an interest in further boosting the already successful Uk spacetech sector.

If they get time over dessert Boring Co could also benefit - Boris was London Mayor during the tunnelling phase of London’s Crossrail project and he wants to go large on doing similar projects elsewhere in the country.
 
  • Love
Reactions: neroden
The problem with Boris/Trump is that they believe if only you show that you are "tough" others will fall in line. But that is not what happens in reality, others also want to show that they can be tough too. Several wars have started because of this kind of miscalculation.

BTW, I can recommend Brexitcast, which has been entertaining & informative, to anyone looking for a podcast on Brexit.
@Singer3000 Not sure what the disagree is for - you don't think belligerent miscalculations have led to wars or you don't like Brexitcast ?
 
  • Like
Reactions: neroden
@Singer3000 Not sure what the disagree is for - you don't think belligerent miscalculations have led to wars or you don't like Brexitcast ?
It’s irresponsible hyperbole of the worst kind to keep raising the spectre of violent conflict as a result of Brexit.

I haven’t tried Brexitcast, Laura Kuenssberg is generally ok though. Katya Adler less so. You should give Coffee House Shots a go too, they have much closer links to the current administration so the quality of their forecasting is generally the best out there. While the editorial stance of the magazine itself was pro Brexit, they manage to get people on with quite opposing views to each other so there’s reasonable balance. Not uncommon to find an unavowed communist on with an ardent free marketeer.
 
That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the notion that if only you have "tough" leaders other nations will bow to your nationalistic fervor.

In the case of Brexit it will lead to no-deal Brexit crash out, not war.
“Several wars have started because of this kind of miscalculation.”

Must’ve misunderstood, my apologies.
 
Similar to the Canada deal with the EU. Would cause problems at the Irish border.
Does Boris actually have a proposal on Irish border - apart from "absolutely no backstop" ? It seems to be an intractable problem - given that Brexiters want to assume some kind of technical solution that doesn't exist today.

BTW, this thing has dragged on for so long, I doubt the international markets even care about what happens to Brexit anymore.
 
I wrote this back in February.
The EU seemed to not have learned from the past 2 years. The more they try to give us a harder deal - the more the UK want to exit. Tusk's special place in hell was the absolute worst of it. Brexiteers are getting stronger. A greater majority would vote for Conservatives now than previous. The leading remainers have left the Conservative party without any real impact. Approx 70% of the Conservative constituencies, voted leave. Lib Dems are the only party in England that would remain with 5%!
We are in greater danger of a no deal than I thought and then I read this:
Brexit could be delayed until 2021, EU sources reveal
This is like a red flag to a bull for the Brexiteers.
The EU's stance seems to be entirely based on the bremoaners ability to stop a no deal. The tougher the EU is, the more the UK will want a hard Brexit. Boris has momentum now - it was so predictable - we have a long history of wanting to be "on the edge" of the EU. So what are the EU doing? - digging in their heels - no change to the deal. Boris reacts with:
No-deal Brexit plans to get £2.1bn boost
With Trump offering a trade deal, momentum will keep swinging towards "no deal" to the point where the middle 50% will actually accept that it is going to happen (or has to be a viable threat to get a deal). At that point, Parliament won't be able to stop a no deal and any changes to the EU deal will be insufficient.

If the EU were to throw us a bone now, momentum would return to something more sensible. I previously advocated a 10 year sunset clause on the backstop - this is now not going to work. In fact, the brexiteers are increasingly distrustful towards a 2 year implementation period.

It has gone very wrong - the public are literally bored of Brexit on every level. I am 80% confident that once we have exited on a deal, the left and centrists will keep the UK tied closely to the EU (at the expense of doing the big trade deals) - it just needs to feel like it is our choice.
 
With Trump offering a trade deal, momentum will keep swinging towards "no deal" to the point where the middle 50% will actually accept that it is going to happen (or has to be a viable threat to get a deal). At that point, Parliament won't be able to stop a no deal and any changes to the EU deal will be insufficient.
Trump can't offer a deal. The House won't vote for it. It will be stopped in the Senate too.
 
Trump can't offer a deal. The House won't vote for it. It will be stopped in the Senate too.
In the short term, that is probably irrelevant. If the UK public think it could happen (along with lots of other deals) then momentum will keep moving that way. The UK public increasingly do not believe that the Irish border will be problematic as nobody has stated they would put one in.
 
In the short term, that is probably irrelevant. If the UK public think it could happen (along with lots of other deals) then momentum will keep moving that way. The UK public increasingly do not believe that the Irish border will be problematic as nobody has stated they would put one in.
Well, I'm sure there will be press to remind them of those things, continuously. After all quite a few powerful business interests probably fare badly in a no-deal Brexit.

BTW, there is some talk of Boris getting a deal passed in Parliament and then trying to negotiate with EU. That is probably what May should have done to start with. That makes Parliamentary vote for a deal likely - and puts more pressure on EU.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Buckminster
Does Boris actually have a proposal on Irish border - apart from "absolutely no backstop" ? It seems to be an intractable problem - given that Brexiters want to assume some kind of technical solution that doesn't exist today.

BTW, this thing has dragged on for so long, I doubt the international markets even care about what happens to Brexit anymore.
There's signs of this in in the UK property market. After deferring decisions for a couple of years, people are now just cracking on with life and there's been an increase in supply and demand in the London market since March.

On the Irish border, for the initiated, the Good Friday Agreement worked because of its deliberate ambiguity. It allows Unionists to still live life as part of the UK and Republicans to live as though they are part of a unified Ireland, with power-sharing in Belfast over devolved issues. There's been a Common Travel Area between the UK and Ireland since 1923 and goods can move freely between North and South because both the UK and Ireland are part of the Single Market and Customs Union, with common tariffs and regulatory alignment on goods and standards.

So what's the problem? A core driver of the Brexit vote was for the UK to regain sovereignty over trade policy, which hence means it cannot be part of the same customs territory as the EU (i.e. it must leave the customs union). To stay in the customs union but leave the EU would in fact be to forfeit democratic sovereignty over these areas, versus the status quo where sovereignty is pooled. This is because the UK would have no say in rule setting or trade negotiations but still be subject to standards and EU tariff / quota policy.

The "backstop" was particularly reviled in the UK because it essentially sought to keep the UK in the customs union but with no unilateral exit mechanism. It's not liked in a lot of European capitals because they think the UK gets a free lunch, getting unimpeded access to the European Single Market while not having to make any budgetary contribution or allow freedom of movement for European citizens.

So the problem statement for the UK government is how to achieve an independent UK trade policy without a) having customs checks at the Northern Irish border, which would upset Republicans, or b) Northern Ireland having a divergent trade and goods standards policy from the UK, which would upset Unionists. In fact, both a) and b) are almost certainly in legal breach of the Good Friday Agreement.

The UK government's solution is on the face of it then a pragmatic one that relies upon two pillars: 1) that smuggling is a criminal activity and hence only performed by criminals, of which there are few, and 2) that smuggling itself is a crime for which there is an existing and reasonable level of tolerance, especially if a zero tolerance approach instigated civil violence.

By value, North - South Irish trade is performed by a relatively small number of companies (I once read 100 were responsible for something like 80%?), which can be regularly audited to ensure they are not cheating any divergent tariff arrangements. Sample spot checks can be done away from the border where tensions are lower. SMEs would register as Trusted Traders and would self-declare, on the basis that people are trusted in most other areas of life not to be criminals. Income tax statements are a self reported activity for the self employed. Why should tariff liabilities for small business owners (i.e. a trade tax) be any different?

Some people would cheat the system and import goods from one area to the other depending on the beneficial tariff arrangement. They are criminals that no doubt already illegally exploit the differential VAT and Duty rates between the UK and Ireland. I'd venture too that there is quite high correlation between these criminals and the criminals that have said they would commit murder if border posts were reinstated.

There's other bits and pieces to tidy up too. For example the sensible resolution to the issue of food safety and animal health is through a common agricultural area on the island of Ireland. It's most appropriate that there's democratic accountability for this to Northern Irish citizens through the power-sharing Belfast government, though the situation is not helped that this hasn't sat in 2 years. In the meantime, this must regrettably be owned by Westminster.

If you're still with me, by now someone will be jumping up and down and going mad asking about the World Trade Organisation. You can't just have leaky borders and expect that to fly, it's against the global trade system! To which the answer is, well ok then, let's implement the above solution and wait and see if anyone sues us. A slightly imperfect border solution that does an effective enough job of protecting different customs territories, while maintaining the peace in a long disputed territory? A small amount of low grade tariff smuggling in a small island of 6 million people hardly seems worse than the flagrant and severe breaches of the global trade order that multiple states have got away with in the past two decades, be it steel dumping, cheating on environmental and workers right standards, theft of IP, denial of perfectly safe agri products on concocted health and safety grounds etc...

What I get personally sick of hearing is that seemingly the only priority is to "protect the integrity of the European Single Market". Sure, I get it. But any solution must also protect the integrity of the UK Single Market, which is after all almost two centuries older and far broader and more deeply embedded. How about acting with goodwill on all sides, to find a democratically sound and practical solution, in the name of maintaining good relations between the UK and its neighbours and keeping the peace in Ireland? To which the answer of a large section of the UK population now is: because many in the UK Parliament and European capitals have had an incentive to weaponise this issue to try and a) overturn Brexit, or b) cause punishment/humiliation to the UK for leaving the EU.
 
A core driver of the Brexit vote was for the UK to regain sovereignty over trade policy,
Yes, that was very clear from reading the pro-Brexit tabloids ;)

1*iyIUapKG9ygPolJT00jeqw.jpeg



OofdExy.jpg