Bill Gates Dismisses Free Market's Ability To Counter Climate Change

[SwedishAdvocate]

I think this relates back to the book that Naomi Klein put out about extreme capitalism, This Changes Everything. She makes some really fine points about how deep into it we are as a society and there was already thread on the book, so I'll link it here if others are interested in reading the thread.

Naomi Klein's new book, This Changes Everything, a must read

…/ Be careful to take EVERYTHING Naomi says with dump truck sized grains of salt. There are two sides to every issue and she's blind in one eye.

I haven’t read This Changes Everything.

But I sure do take EVERYTHING you write with ”dump sized grains of salt”.

There are NOT ”two sides to every issue”!

For example:

Nazism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Apartheid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


There!

Now it should be clear as day that you are dead wrong about this above!

Now… What else could you be wrong about?

And it should also be clear as day that there is nothing wrong with reverting to Goodwin’s law in this particular case.

 

[Ktowntslafan]

I haven’t read This Changes Everything.

But I sure do take EVERYTHING you write with ”dump sized grains of salt”.

There are NOT ”two sides to every issue”!

For example:

Nazism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Apartheid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


There!

Now it should be clear as day that you are dead wrong about this above!

Now… What else could you be wrong about?

And it should also be clear as day that there is nothing wrong with reverting to Goodwin’s law in this particular case.

Wow! SwedishAdvocate! Biggest "throw down" I've ever seen on TMC.

I'm not sure who is right or wrong, but I love your passion and conviction.

It's convinced me to read the book, at the very least.

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I think this relates back to the book that Naomi Klein put out about extreme capitalism, This Changes Everything. She makes some really fine points about how deep into it we are as a society and there was already thread on the book, so I'll link it here if others are interested in reading the thread.

Naomi Klein's new book, This Changes Everything, a must read

I have been a fan of the documentary "The Corporation" for some time. Naomi Klein among others are interviewed in it. It's along the same lines, certainly...and I believe has significant merit:

The Corporation (2003) - YouTube

2003...wow I feel old...let's have an updated version. How many "bad apples" can you nominate in the last 13 years?

I will go first: VW

 

[tander]

I'm probably over-simplifying this but I don't think there's anything inherent to the free market that can solve the problem. The turning point, when it will appear as though the free market solved the problem, will be when it becomes more profitable to be environmentally friendly than it does to be environmentally destructive. Today, there's more money to be made from harming the planet than healing it, so the economy reflects this. If we have any hope of allowing the free market to fix the problem, a huge pendulum shift needs to take place where, for whatever reason, oil and combustion engine vehicles become less profitable than environmentally sound manufacturing.

As someone who has studied a lot of business I'd be the first to admit that free markets alone are not capable of solving climate change. However I'd also remind people that free markets are not entirely responsible for it, and while certain free market participants might be fairly demonized, free markets as a whole (and in combination with government policy) are not a bad thing. Climate change is a multi-faceted and multi-generational issue, and it's solution is too. While free markets can't solve it alone, one of the big differences between entrepreneurs and other people is they see opportunities where others might see insurmountable problems. For example where some might see GM and Ford et al as giants ready to step on their rivals, people like Musk might see lumbering incumbents that are too blind to see the utility of electric cars. Tesla's growth rates and consumer reviews speak volumes about the opportunities in Social Entrepreneurship. What is a Social Entrepreneur? | Ashoka - Innovators for the Public In the short term yes the free markets don't seem to solve much, but in the long term just look at those companies like Tesla that are slowly changing the economic equations. Another appropriate example is SolarCity; in combination with battery storage there a some areas where it will simply be more economical to put solar panels on the roof than to buy electricity from the grid, with total disregard to the climate effects at the consumer level. So the free markets don't stand alone, but they are not categorically a bad thing either.

 

[Ktowntslafan]

As someone who has studied a lot of business I'd be the first to admit that free markets alone are not capable of solving climate change. However I'd also remind people that free markets are not entirely responsible for it, and while certain free market participants might be fairly demonized, free markets as a whole (and in combination with government policy) are not a bad thing. Climate change is a multi-faceted and multi-generational issue, and it's solution is too. While free markets can't solve it alone, one of the big differences between entrepreneurs and other people is they see opportunities where others might see insurmountable problems. For example where some might see GM and Ford et al as giants ready to step on their rivals, people like Musk might see lumbering incumbents that are too blind to see the utility of electric cars. Tesla's growth rates and consumer reviews speak volumes about the opportunities in Social Entrepreneurship. What is a Social Entrepreneur? | Ashoka - Innovators for the Public In the short term yes the free markets don't seem to solve much, but in the long term just look at those companies like Tesla that are slowly changing the economic equations. Another appropriate example is SolarCity; in combination with battery storage there a some areas where it will simply be more economical to put solar panels on the roof than to buy electricity from the grid, with total disregard to the climate effects at the consumer level. So the free markets don't stand alone, but they are not categorically a bad thing either.

In A World Of Capitalists, Elon Musk Is Out Of This World

"Therefore the battle between Musk and his rivals is about far more than just businessmen squabbling over profits—it cuts to the heart of what kind of capitalism we want to see succeed and thrive in the coming century. One kind, documented at length in the blockbuster new book by Thomas Piketty, demonstrates clearly how an unchecked, monopolistic capitalism of the type practiced by the entrenched interests Musk is now battling, leads inevitably to highly unequal, politically unstable polities where politics and economics becomes dominated by an undeserving ultra-wealthy who inherit and monopolize rather than innovate and create. Indeed, we are now seeing exactly that kind of capitalism taking over the country we used to call America."

http://www.mintpressnews.com/world-capitalists-elon-musk-world/190109/

Please watch "The Corporation" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMNZXV7jOG0

 

[Ktowntslafan]

TED Talk, interesting perspective...somewhere in the middle:

Nick Hanauer: Beware, fellow plutocrats, the pitchforks are coming | TED Talk | TED.com

 

[Ktowntslafan]

I think this relates back to the book that Naomi Klein put out about extreme capitalism, This Changes Everything. She makes some really fine points about how deep into it we are as a society and there was already thread on the book, so I'll link it here if others are interested in reading the thread.

Naomi Klein's new book, This Changes Everything, a must read

A presentation by Naomi: This Changes Everything - The Film - This Changes EverythingThe Film This Changes Everything

 

[Ktowntslafan]

What is a Social Entrepreneur? | Ashoka - Innovators for the Public

Appreciate this link, btw:

"Social entrepreneurs often seem to be possessed by their ideas, committing their lives to changing the direction of their field. They are visionaries, but also realists, and are ultimately concerned with the practical implementation of their vision above all else."

It feels good to have a diagnosis. Sharing with family and friends now...seriously.

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I also support the theory in these articles:

Why Entrepreneurs Should Go Work for Government - HBS Working Knowledge - Harvard Business School


Our government needs to think like a high-tech entrepreneur - MarketWatch

 

[Zybane]

So, a world run by corporations who's sole interest is maximizing profits are the ones going to curb climate change? Don't make me laugh. Maximizing corporate profit is more akin to a "Scorched earth" policy.

 

[jerry33]

So, a world run by corporations who's sole interest is maximizing profits are the ones going to curb climate change? Don't make me laugh. Maximizing corporate profit is more akin to a "Scorched earth" policy.

That is certainly my view. We are now entering the "railroad baron" stage again because people have forgotten what unrestrained capitalism does.

 

[tander]

So, a world run by corporations who's sole interest is maximizing profits are the ones going to curb climate change? Don't make me laugh. Maximizing corporate profit is more akin to a "Scorched earth" policy.

So think this through a bit. Tesla, which is a still a tiny "corporation" in terms of how many vehicles they make compared to over 30 competitors Automotive industry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia has basically set the benchmark for the entire world with the Model S, many of the incumbent competitors are already scrambling to do electric cars and supply chains etc. The MS has pretty much proved that electric cars can be faster, more utility, safer, and eventually cheaper with mass production that ICE cars. In other words, if those 30 competitors don't match or beat that benchmark (i.e. stop making ICE products) they will probably no longer be able to sell their products, and consequently be unprofitable, and no longer exist. So in order to maintain and maximize their profits, they will be forced (basically by Tesla) to change what they are doing and "curb climate change". This phenomenon is sometimes called triple bottom line Triple bottom line - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, basically the companies that do the best job addressing social and environmental issues in whatever industry they are in, often see that rewarded in the "bottom line".

I don't know this for sure, you'd have to ask him, but Musk probably thought about running for public office in order to curb climate change, but instead he chose entrepreneurship. While it would always depend on the person's unique traits, in this case I think it's pretty possible that in choosing the entrepreneurship avenue he's having a greater and faster impact on this issue than if he'd chosen public office.

 

[SwedishAdvocate]

.../ This phenomenon is sometimes called triple bottom line Triple bottom line - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, basically the companies that do the best job addressing social and environmental issues in whatever industry they are in, often see that rewarded in the "bottom line". /...

That's a nice little theory. But taking into account all human activity where this theory is applicable, IMO it's painfully obvious that "Tripple bottom line" is doing abysmally little. And time is running out fast.

 

[Ktowntslafan]

That's a nice little theory. But taking into account all human activity where this theory is applicable, IMO it's painfully obvious that "Tripple bottom line" is doing abysmally little. And time is running out fast.

Indeed: 'Life on planet at stake', France warns as climate ministers meet

 

[Ktowntslafan]

"to be beneficial, greed has to be contained inside a high-integrity, meritocratic, free market. If it’s not, greed will turn into the enemy of progress, because the more vulnerable the system is to corruption, the more the greedy on top will be able to game the system to ensure their own long-lasting victory."

From:

"First ingredient: Greed. In a perfect, fair, open market, greed works great as the core lifeblood motivation. The way capitalism theoretically works is that the more real-world value you create, the more money you’ll make. So companies in a competitive landscape will put their effort into creating better and better products and services in order to optimize, which for them means making as much money as they possibly can. Individual people are greedy as a means to all kinds of ends—a lavish lifestyle, personal freedom, security, admiration, power, sex—but what they want is irrelevant. As long as their burning desire makes them really want stuff, their drive to optimize will move technology forward. Greed is a double-edged sword though—to be beneficial, greed has to be contained inside a high-integrity, meritocratic, free market. If it’s not, greed will turn into the enemy of progress, because the more vulnerable the system is to corruption, the more the greedy on top will be able to game the system to ensure their own long-lasting victory."

From:

How Tesla Will Change The World - Wait But Why

More greatness:

"This kind of negative externality is how tobacco companies got away with murder for so many decades. The long-term cost to customers’ health was unaccounted for because customers were ignorant to the consequences, the negative effects were years away, and there was no regulatory penalty in place to charge for the harm. Thinking purely from a greed-optimizing perspective, cigarette companies acted completely rationally. They kicked up nicotine levels in cigarettes and added shards of glass into filters to create tiny cuts and increase nicotine absorption, which caused further harm but increased demand—but since the harm was unaccounted for, this was a pure net positive for the company. And when anti-tobacco campaigns started to educate customers on cigarette harm—which attaches the harm to the cost of scared customers and lower demand—the tobacco industry hired low-integrity scientists to discredit the negative campaigns and muddle the message. Awareness would get there eventually, but the longer they could delay and keep the harm hidden, the better off they’d be from a greed standpoint.
People call this evil, but all it really is is an industry acting in its own best interests within the parameters of its environment. Greed is a simple motivation—it takes whatever it can get, and it’ll push all available limits it can in order to fully optimize. I used tobacco companies as an example, but you could easily tell the story with fast food, radiation-emitting consumer electronics, politician behavior, the finance industry, and many others.
In the auto industry, CO2 emissions are the negative externality. If you have a cheap and easy way to build cars that dump garbage into the atmosphere and no one makes you pay for it, why would you ever change anything?
It’s the same story as cigarettes. Instead of the tobacco industry and the cigarette companies who support it, you have the oil industry and the car companies who support it. Instead of short-term emphysema, you have short term city smog. Instead of long-term harm to people’s health like lung cancer, you have long-term harm to the human way of life like underwater coastal cities."

 

[tander]

That's a nice little theory. But taking into account all human activity where this theory is applicable, IMO it's painfully obvious that "Tripple bottom line" is doing abysmally little. And time is running out fast.

Unfortunately, like people, not all businesses think in terms of triple bottom line. The good news is that most if not all MBA students and even undergraduates are learning about things like triple bottom line. Moreover, the scenario with Tesla and other car companies isn't just a scenario, it's a pretty high probability at this point. There's a pretty good chance that in ten years most car companies won't make anything that takes gas or diesel. And the same is true of utilities, when solar panels or other "sustainable" energy sources start getting paired with battery storage, the math that makes coal and gas companies look good changes quite a lot. If you look out ten or twenty years (which is how far out companies like Tesla or SolarCity plan), we're probably looking at a planet that has changed more in twenty years in terms of transportation/energy/pollution than it has in the last hundred. So it's not all doom and gloom, every problem is an opportunity waiting in disguise.

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"This kind of negative externality is how tobacco companies got away with murder for so many decades. The long-term cost to customers’ health was unaccounted for because customers were ignorant to the consequences, the negative effects were years away, and there was no regulatory penalty in place to charge for the harm..."

I'm not sure if greed is really the problem with tobacco or cigarette companies, maybe laziness or incompetent? If you look at tobacco companies as agriculture businesses had they simply changed to a different kind of crop like potatoes they could have made more money and not shortened the lives of their consumers. The Worlds Most Valuable Cash Crop - Visual Capitalist

 

[Ktowntslafan]

I'm not sure if greed is really the problem with tobacco or cigarette companies, maybe laziness or incompetent? If you look at tobacco companies as agriculture businesses had they simply changed to a different kind of crop like potatoes they could have made more money and not shortened the lives of their consumers. The Worlds Most Valuable Cash Crop - Visual Capitalist

Tander, you can't be serious:

Thank you for Smoking Trailer - YouTube

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The good news is that most if not all MBA students and even undergraduates are learning about things like triple bottom line.

Tander...please watch this video and give your thoughts:

Business Behaving Badly | TVrg

 

[tander]

Tander, you can't be serious:

Thank you for Smoking Trailer - YouTube

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Yeah that was a great movie. I am kinda serious though. My point was just going back to the free market good or bad thought, that if tobacco companies were really good at being capitalists or free marketeers, they wouldn't be selling tobacco at all because there are more profitable crops. It's like selling diesel cars instead of electric ones, not only do electric cars have more social good, they have higher profit margins. Plus if you assume that electric cars are can be built safer, then you're theoretically going to have more people around to buy them and use them, it's a win win. So without even taking the social/human effects into the decision they should realize that it's not a very good business model, and consequently end up doing better for their bottom line and maybe accidentally do what is better socially.


Tander...please watch this video and give your thoughts:

Business Behaving Badly | TVrg

Yeah the VW thing is pretty lame. One thing I wonder about whenever you hear about something like that is for every VW scandal participant or tobacco company, how many good corporate leaders or potato farmers are there out there that don't get the headlines? Hopefully there will be an even greater push for mandatory business ethics/social responsibility programs. I guess the silver lining with the VW thing is it just makes electric and other non-polluting transport look better.

 

[Ktowntslafan]

Too cool:

Shanghai to get 10,000 free e-poles | Shanghai Daily

 

[electracity]

...... There's a pretty good chance that in ten years most car companies won't make anything that takes gas or diesel. ......

If that's going to be all EV we will need 200 gigafactories pumping out batteries to support production. Next year we will have 1/7th of one gigafactory in production.

 

[Ktowntslafan]

If that's going to be all EV we will need 200 gigafactories pumping out batteries to support production. Next year we will have 1/7th of one gigafactory in production.

How many gigafactories does $450B get us...per year?

G20 countries spend $450B a year on fossil fuel subsidies, study says - Politics - CBC News

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How about $5.3T?

Fossil fuels get global $5.3 trillion 'subsidy': IMF report - Business - CBC News

 

[Ktowntslafan]

Time to light this thread up again...lot's of news!

"High quality global journalism requires investment. Please share this article with others using the link below, do not cut & paste the article. See our Ts&Cs and Copyright Policy for more detail. Email [email protected] to buy additional rights. http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/c16f957e-9872-11e5-95c7-d47aa298f769.html#ixzz3t79LxY6n

Mr Zuckerberg had previously pledged to give away half his fortune, as part of an initiative called The Giving Pledge spearheaded by Microsoft billionaire Bill Gates. He has already made gifts totalling $1.6bn to causes such as education, healthcare and the environment."

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/c16f957e-9872-11e5-95c7-d47aa298f769.html#axzz3t785HKlf

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Paris climate change summit: Bill Gates launches effort to disrupt energy sector by funding new search for clean energy - Telegraph