Bill Gates Dismisses Free Market's Ability To Counter Climate Change

[ZsoZso]

Free Market finds the way to maximize profits, therefore it is well known for its tendency to externalize as much of the costs of production as possible. This is exactly the reason why it causes so much damage to environment and people's health (e.g. factory workers, but also general public). Carbon pricing is an artificial way to try to bring some of the externalized costs back into the equation, i.e. make them internal. Such manipulation of Free Market is making it less "Free", just the same as any government regulations for worker safety, worker health, toxic material dumping, pollutant release etc.

 

[Jim MacInnes]

Thanks for this. Here's what sticks out to me:

"For decades,policy-makers and international agreements have sought to achieve this goal through energyefficiency, low-carbon technology, carbon pricing, and other measures aimed at reducingdemand for fossil fuels. Focusing on the point of combustion makes intuitive sense, but effortsso far have yet to put fossil fuel use on a trajectory consistent with keeping global warmingbelow 2°C. "

Decades!

Now contrast with Norways EV incentives. Tremendous impact in just a few years.

So there are short term options while we work on long term solutions.

Cutting subsidies to to the Oil and Gas industry and redirecting to EV's is a no brainer.

IMF Pegs Canada's Fossil Fuel Subsidies at $34 Billion - TheTyee.ca - Mobile

Yes. Also restricting FF extraction on public lands could be particularly effective. (the regulatory approach) Some of our Michigan house members who did not want to consider offshore wind power opportunities supported a bill to disallow the MEASUREMENT the offshore wind speeds on Lake Michigan a few years ago. I figure if the legislators had the power to do this they could also restrict fossil fuel extraction opportunities if they wanted to. The problem is you have to want to. BTW I also follow TheTyee.ca TheTyee article makes excellent points!

 

[autodidaddict]

I'm probably over-simplifying this but I don't think there's anything inherent to the free market that can solve the problem. The turning point, when it will appear as though the free market solved the problem, will be when it becomes more profitable to be environmentally friendly than it does to be environmentally destructive. Today, there's more money to be made from harming the planet than healing it, so the economy reflects this. If we have any hope of allowing the free market to fix the problem, a huge pendulum shift needs to take place where, for whatever reason, oil and combustion engine vehicles become less profitable than environmentally sound manufacturing.

 

[sandpiper]

I'm probably over-simplifying this but I don't think there's anything inherent to the free market that can solve the problem. The turning point, when it will appear as though the free market solved the problem, will be when it becomes more profitable to be environmentally friendly than it does to be environmentally destructive. Today, there's more money to be made from harming the planet than healing it, so the economy reflects this. If we have any hope of allowing the free market to fix the problem, a huge pendulum shift needs to take place where, for whatever reason, oil and combustion engine vehicles become less profitable than environmentally sound manufacturing.

Right.... and pricing emissions, forcing all businesses to include the true emissions cost in their calculations, will accomplish exactly this. It will drive up the cost of non-green projects, making them less attractive than the greener alternatives.

 

[autodidaddict]

Right.... and pricing emissions, forcing all businesses to include the true emissions cost in their calculations, will accomplish exactly this. It will drive up the cost of non-green projects, making them less attractive than the greener alternatives.

I'm a computer guy, not an economics guy, so pardon my ignorance here... How would emission pricing be accomplished? I'm assuming it would have to be a governmental regulation? If so, wouldn't this have to be a global thing, otherwise companies would just end up using safe harbor/emissions-friendly countries as loopholes?

 

[Johan]

I'm a computer guy, not an economics guy, so pardon my ignorance here... How would emission pricing be accomplished? I'm assuming it would have to be a governmental regulation? If so, wouldn't this have to be a global thing, otherwise companies would just end up using safe harbor/emissions-friendly countries as loopholes?

A revenue neutral carbon tax/levy is easy to implement. Has been proven easy and effective in several parts of Canada.

Since it's revenue neutral from the state's perspective it should appeal both left and right wing politicals. You merely shift investments away from stuff that causes AGW. The only people opposed are those with vested interests in fossil assets.


Carbon Fee and Dividend - Citizens Climate Lobby

Shultz and Becker: Why We Support a Revenue-Neutral Carbon Tax - WSJ

In charts: how a revenue neutral carbon tax creates jobs, grows the economy | Dana Nuccitelli | Environment | The Guardian

 

[Ktowntslafan]

A revenue neutral carbon tax/levy is easy to implement. Has been proven easy and effective in several parts of Canada.

Since it's revenue neutral from the state's perspective it should appeal both left and right wing politicals. You merely shift investments away from stuff that causes AGW. The only people opposed are those with vested interests in fossil assets.


Carbon Fee and Dividend - Citizens Climate Lobby

Shultz and Becker: Why We Support a Revenue-Neutral Carbon Tax - WSJ

In charts: how a revenue neutral carbon tax creates jobs, grows the economy | Dana Nuccitelli | Environment | The Guardian

Johan, is this revenue neutral carbon tax/levy implemented in Norway? You guys are leading the EV revolution, do tell your secret. I thought it was massive EV incentives:

Norway Is a Model for Encouraging Electric Car Sales

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/17/business/international/norway-is-global-model-for-encouraging-sales-of-electric-cars.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=mini-moth&region=top-stories-below&WT.nav=top-stories-below

 

[Johan]

Johan, is this revenue neutral carbon tax/levy implemented in Norway? You guys are leading the EV revolution, do tell your secret. I thought it was massive EV incentives:

Norway Is a Model for Encouraging Electric Car Sales

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/17/business/international/norway-is-global-model-for-encouraging-sales-of-electric-cars.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=mini-moth&region=top-stories-below&WT.nav=top-stories-below

No.

But there is a half enthusiastic attempt at what we usually call a "green taxation shift". The EV incentives are an example of this: heavy taxation on cars in general but EVs exempt since their tail pipe CO2 and other emissions is zero. Any taxation factor multiplied by 0 is 0

The problem for Norway specifically is our schizotypic relationship with fossil fuels: we understand the need to get away from them from an environmental perspective but Norway's wealth is more or less single handedly based on oil.

 

[Ktowntslafan]

No.

But there is a half enthusiastic attempt at what we usually call a "green taxation shift". The EV incentives are an example of this: heavy taxation on cars in general but EVs exempt since their tail pipe CO2 and other emissions is zero. Any taxation factor multiplied by 0 is 0

The problem for Norway specifically is our schizotypic relationship with fossil fuels: we understand the need to get away from them from an environmental perspective but Norway's wealth is more or less single handedly based on oil.

You have the highest EV penetration in the world, achieved in a very short time period. Would you not recommend other countries follow your lead...at least in the near term, say 2020 ish? If every country achieved Norway's adoption rate for EV's, we would collectively make a huge dent in GHG emissions within the next five years.

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The free market argument is just BS promoted by the likes of the Chamber of Commerce and all of those other free market advocates. The free market is what got is unto the climate mess we're in as it takes no account of extreme social costs of carbon emissions. If we count on free market advocates the human race will be extinct in less than 100 years and the earth will say "good riddance." And all of those free market advocates and their families will be gone with the rest of us.

They are self-inetersted fools of the highest order.

Free market run amok...fools indeed:

"Every manufacturer selling cars in Europe has the same CO2 "irregularities" as VW. In fact, most have a bigger problem. Toyota even has one with its hybrids. By raising the issue, VW is dragging others down with it. Most likely, VW's self-flagellation is the result of a management decision to take what accountants call a "big bath," bringing all potentially costly problems into the open in the shortest time possible."

VW's Mea Culpa Implicates All Carmakers - Bloomberg View

 

[ggies07]

I think this relates back to the book that Naomi Klein put out about extreme capitalism, This Changes Everything. She makes some really fine points about how deep into it we are as a society and there was already thread on the book, so I'll link it here if others are interested in reading the thread.

Naomi Klein's new book, This Changes Everything, a must read

 

[sandpiper]

I'm a computer guy, not an economics guy, so pardon my ignorance here... How would emission pricing be accomplished? I'm assuming it would have to be a governmental regulation? If so, wouldn't this have to be a global thing, otherwise companies would just end up using safe harbor/emissions-friendly countries as loopholes?

There are a bunch of ways to tax emissions. One would be to apply a carbon onto every fuel that generates carbon. And then you'd need to monitor emissions for any facilities (oil refineries for example) that burn internally generated fossil carbon.

Then, the government is supposed to reduce business, personal and sales taxes to offset the revenue from the carbon taxes. This is one point of failure. Most governments are more enthusiastic about the raise than the reduce and act accordingly. The other point of failure is that you're potentially crippling energy intensive businesses that have to compete with other companies located in jurisdictions that don't tax carbon. And so nobody wants to be first.

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I think this relates back to the book that Naomi Klein put out about extreme capitalism, This Changes Everything. She makes some really fine points about how deep into it we are as a society and there was already thread on the book, so I'll link it here if others are interested in reading the thread.

Naomi Klein's new book, This Changes Everything, a must read

Be careful to take EVERYTHING Naomi says with dump truck sized grains of salt. There are two sides to every issue and she's blind in one eye.

 

[Johan]

You have the highest EV penetration in the world, achieved in a very short time period. Would you not recommend other countries follow your lead...at least in the near term, say 2020 ish? If every country achieved Norway's adoption rate for EV's, we would collectively make a huge dent in GHG emissions within the next five years.

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Free market run amok...fools indeed:

"Every manufacturer selling cars in Europe has the same CO2 "irregularities" as VW. In fact, most have a bigger problem. Toyota even has one with its hybrids. By raising the issue, VW is dragging others down with it. Most likely, VW's self-flagellation is the result of a management decision to take what accountants call a "big bath," bringing all potentially costly problems into the open in the shortest time possible."

VW's Mea Culpa Implicates All Carmakers - Bloomberg View

Yes the tax incentives have worked extremely well. They should be implemented elsewhere, but there are many hurdles, mainly fossil fuel giants acting as very forcible special interest groups and domestic car industry protection.

In all fairness it should be mentioned that originally the incentives in Norway came about mainly to help domestic car manufacturer Think survive. That this coincided with what's right for the environment didn't hurt. But if Norway had a BMW, Volvo or GM it wouldn't have happened. It also wouldn't have happened if a US company called Tesla was the market leader by several car lengths at that time, and stood to gain a lot of sales from such incentives being implemented.

 

[Ktowntslafan]

Yes the tax incentives have worked extremely well. They should be implemented elsewhere, but there are many hurdles, mainly fossil fuel giants acting as very forcible special interest groups and domestic car industry protection.

Thank-you Johan.

Decades of of failed UN attempts to price carbon + ongoing calamitous VW scandal + Norway's best practice =

EV inventives: #1 priority for all governments at COP21.

 

[Ktowntslafan]

I'm open to criticism...please fire away.

If if you agree, how do we spread the word before Nov. 30th?

It would be nice to make an impact.

 

[Ktowntslafan]

Thank-you Johan.

Decades of of failed UN attempts to price carbon + ongoing calamitous VW scandal + Norway's best practice =

EV inventives: #1 priority for all governments at COP21.

In case anyone is interested in preparation of COP21, here is some more information on Norway's policy:

EV Policy Presentation by Ola Elvestuen, Chair of the Standing Committee on Energy and the Environment

http://evroadmapconference.com/program/presentations15/OlaElvestuen.pdf

 

[tander]

I'm open to criticism...please fire away.

If if you agree, how do we spread the word before Nov. 30th?

It would be nice to make an impact.

Okay I'm not criticizing, taxes or cap and trade definitely have a role in transitioning to a "greener" world economy. However if you do some critical thinking about what companies like Tesla, SolarCity, and other companies of that sort are doing, they are in fact using the free market to address climate change. Put simply, if you make a better and eventually cheaper mousetrap that doesn't require cheese (fossil fuels), people are going to just stop buying gas cars and investing in coal mines, independent of any climate ramifications. If I can buy a Tesla that's cheaper to purchase, maintain, fuel, and works better than the gas alternative, that's the free market at it's best. So has the free market countered climate change? Not yet, but anybody making gas powered cars is basically selling typewriters in 1980 at this point. So pricing carbon is a helpful addition, but people are going to start buying personal computers instead of typewriters regardless. So Bill Gates may be correct in his assertion thus far, but 5/10/20 years down the line it's looking like the free market will be doing quite a lot to address climate change, with the help of government policies of course.

 

[Ktowntslafan]

anybody making gas powered cars is basically selling typewriters in 1980 at this point. So pricing carbon is a helpful addition, but people are going to start buying personal computers instead of typewriters regardless.

Except typewriters weren't poisoning the planet, gas powered cars are. The faster we can transition to sustainable transport the better. Therefore, everyone copy Norway asap.

 

[Ktowntslafan]

Bill Gates is correct. The "Free Market" does not solve problems.

Capitalism for the few - CBC Player

 

[electracity]

Therefore, everyone copy Norway asap.

Export lots of oil?

 

[Ktowntslafan]

Export lots of oil?

Funny...

Many countries export a lot of oil, few have the foresight or political will that Norway does, to lead the world in the EV revolution:

Who Saved the Electric Car? Norway, Thats Who: Associations Now