After what time has passed would you consider an FSD class action lawsuit?

[hooty]

Yes, but did they tell you that you would get an actual full self driving system by a certain date? They did talk about "autosteer on city streets" by a certain date, and in spite of the "beta" they have not delivered that yet, though since autosteer is a driver assist product they could claim to deliver it once it's out of beta, just not a full self driving product. So I think people are entitled to refunds. I don't know what the lawyers get if they get you a refund. ie. if you paid $6K for FSD (the price was lower back then) and you don't want EAP, do you get a $6K refund or do the lawyers get $2K of that?

And those screen shots say "It is not possible to know when it will be available" so where's the fraud?

Legally, misleading, deceptive & unconscionable conduct means that whether a date was stated is irrelevant

Can you cite any actual evidence of such conduct?

(not the "ceo said he guessed they would be done by X and weren't" tweets- but legally actionable evidence)

When you grasp the definition of ‘misleading’, ‘deceptive’ & ‘unconscionable’, particularly from a legal perspective & when considering, on balance, judges view the consumer the more vulnerable party, your statement (framed as a question) holds less weight than what it appears on the surface.
Additionally, when a CEO communicates it is the company making representations - they are effectively one & the same.

 

[ATPMSD]

This is not true. Consumers ultimately benefit as companies are held accountable for their actions. If there's no accountability then companies can just ignore consumer complaints forever.

Yes, it protects future customers to some degree but as most settlements are made without admitting guilt the benefit is not as great as it should be. But those who have been damaged generally receive minimal benefit.

 

[hooty]

This is not true. Consumers ultimately benefit as companies are held accountable for their actions. If there's no accountability then companies can just ignore consumer complaints forever.

Yes, punitive damages may make this class action payout far higher than the sum total of FSD payments.
Will be watching this case with keen interest

 

[ATPMSD]

Yes, punitive damages may make this class action payout far higher than the sum total of FSD payments.
Will be watching this case with keen interest

This is only true if the case goes to trIal.

 

[boonedocks]

Some people "feel" the earth is flat too.

It's their lack of evidence that's the problem- hence why I asked if they had any.

The guy who actually filed the suit seems even worse off given the only thing he actually bought was EAP, and he got that in full years ago... which makes the fact he's asking for class action status to cover an entirely different products buyers- FSD- extra weird.

Could the ambulance chaser behind the idea for the suit not find any actual FSD buyer willing to sue or something and had to settle for this dude?

The flat-earthers probably won't hold much merit in a legal suit but the crux of the suit mentioned just might be a problem. Looks like Tesla might have been preparing for such with the legal team it is trying to build with @elonmusk 's ad for "hardcore litigation team"

 

[Dewg]

This is not true. Consumers ultimately benefit as companies are held accountable for their actions. If there's no accountability then companies can just ignore consumer complaints forever.

It'll be interesting to see if the plaintiff brings up the previous case in 2018 as precedent for parts of their claim:

Tesla settles class action suit over Autopilot claims for $5M | TechCrunch

Tesla has paid out $5 million to settle a 2017 class action lawsuit that originally alleged that the Autopilot feature shipped in 2016 in the company's

techcrunch.com

 

[gearchruncher]

Keep in mind that the only people who actually benefit from Class Action suits are the lawyers who walk away with six-figure fees while the members of the Class typically get what amounts to de minimis compensation.

When Tesla lost their last autopilot class action in 2018, the class members got $280 each. The lawyers got $976K. However, the lawyers sued on behalf of ~50,000 members, so that was only $20 per member in lawyer fees. You can always opt out of the class and sue yourself, but good luck doing that for $20 and none of your time.

Class actions are pretty efficient. Also, companies like Tesla can avoid paying $1M to lawyers by either not abusing customers, or not fighting the class action.

 

[Knightshade]

When you grasp the definition of ‘misleading’, ‘deceptive’ & ‘unconscionable’, particularly from a legal perspective & when considering, on balance, judges view the consumer the more vulnerable party, your statement (framed as a question) holds less weight than what it appears on the surface.

Man that's a lot of words to admit you have no evidence to support any of your claims

I assure you though, the question of having "actual evidence" -or an utter lack thereof- holds more weight than you seem to think it does in actual courts.

Additionally, when a CEO communicates it is the company making representations - they are effectively one & the same.

This is outright false- especially when those communications are typically either:

Forward looking statements specifically protected against being actionable
and/or
Explicit speculative statements like "I'd guess" or "I'd think there's a good chance" or "We hope to do X by Y"...as his generally have been.

Certainly his guesses have been terribly inaccurate but those are, legally, vastly different from explicit part-of-sale promises.



In contrast the statements presented to the consumer as part of the sale, with specific terms, are legal representations.

As previously noted outside of the "city streets by end of year" one for a specific subset of buyers (the one group I agree has SOME cause of action- but is NOT the group the guy suing here is a member of)- Tesla has not made any such representations that have turned out to be untrue thus far.

It'll be interesting to see if the plaintiff brings up the previous case in 2018 as precedent for parts of their claim:

Tesla settles class action suit over Autopilot claims for $5M | TechCrunch

Tesla has paid out $5 million to settle a 2017 class action lawsuit that originally alleged that the Autopilot feature shipped in 2016 in the company's

techcrunch.com

Probably not given there was no precedent set- since the case was settled and no verdict was reached.

(and even then the settlement merely compensates owners for delays in delivering the promised functionality- in a situation where a specific date HAD been promised--- so the only place it'd be relevant is again that specific group of FSD buyers in the "end of year" promise group-- who indeed might ALSO enjoy a couple hundred bucks for the delay like that suits members did)

 

[ATPMSD]

When Tesla lost their last autopilot class action in 2018, the class members got $280 each. The lawyers got $976K. However, the lawyers sued on behalf of ~50,000 members, so that was only $20 per member in lawyer fees. You can always opt out of the class and sue yourself, but good luck doing that for $20 and none of your time.

Class actions are pretty efficient. Also, companies like Tesla can avoid paying $1M to lawyers by either not abusing customers, or not fighting the class action.

I understand your point of view but consider what would happen if people rejected the settlement offer. In the example above you would forgo the $280, which is not much money, and instead force the case to go to trial. At trial, if successful, not only would the members receive compensatory damages but also the potential for punitive damages. This would amount to a lot more than $280 per person and does not let the company get away with not admitting guilt.

 

[2101Guy]

As for Full Self-Driving, the lawsuit backs its claims of fraud using this 2016 video released by Tesla — and still featured on its website —Reportedly, former Tesla engineers that were there for the video’s production claimed the car used a pre-charted and 3D mapped route — technology that is not built into any production Tesla.

 

[2101Guy]

The lawsuit also makes the case that not only are Full Self-Driving and Autopilot misrepresented, but they’re also dangerous. It points to incidents like the 2018 crash where a Model X on Autopilot crashed into a concrete barrier in California, killing the driver, or another one where a Tesla on Autopilot crashed into the back of a stationary fire truck, prompting a federal investigation.

 

[DanCar]

I wonder once california makes Elon change the name of Full Self Driving if he will change it to Not Full Self Driving ah la Not A Flame Thrower….

That is a privacy violation to be inside Elon's brain. lol

 

[gearchruncher]

I understand your point of view but consider what would happen if people rejected the settlement offer. In the example above you would forgo the $280, which is not much money, and instead force the case to go to trial. At trial, if successful, not only would the members receive compensatory damages but also the potential for punitive damages. This would amount to a lot more than $280 per person and does not let the company get away with not admitting guilt.

Civil disputes settle all the time. Something like 97% of criminal cases don't even go to trial. This has nothing to do with a class action, it's a risk/reward calculation. The other outcome is that it could have gone to trial, spent 5X the lawyers fees, and been awarded $100 per class member. Punitive damages would have been a very hard argument in 2017 when the case was filed for a technology that was only released in 2016. They got a reasonable amount for the "unexpected" delays.

Now... 4 years, 3 hardware revisions, and a whole bunch of statements later? Could be a totally different story. Nothing about the class action prevents that from going to trial if that is the best option.

Everyone here needs to remember that they can always go to small claims and/or arbitration too if you don't want to be a member of the class but do want to do something about it.

 

[Dewg]

The lawsuit also makes the case that not only are Full Self-Driving and Autopilot misrepresented, but they’re also dangerous. It points to incidents like the 2018 crash where a Model X on Autopilot crashed into a concrete barrier in California, killing the driver, or another one where a Tesla on Autopilot crashed into the back of a stationary fire truck, prompting a federal investigation.

Did you ever look at the follow up to see what the outcome was?

Tesla Driver Was on Autopilot Eating a Bagel When He Smashed into a Fire Truck

A National Transportation Safety Board investigation found the driver had hands off the wheel and ignored warnings in the 2018 crash.

www.caranddriver.com

You make it sound terrible, but in the end the determined the guy wasn't paying attention, was eating breakfast, and had his hands off the wheel, and ignored warnings from the car.

PSA: Use critical thinking skills and research this stuff for yourself before blindly accepting headlines.

 

[ATPMSD]

Civil disputes settle all the time

Totally agree. But in the case of most civil suits the plaintiffs are a small group who can easily decide if the settlement is fair. In a Class Action suit with say 50,000 members, IMHO, the lawyers know full well that only a fraction of the class will object (or even read the offer) and so the members of the Class get lowballed. I have been a member in many Class Action suits, as I am sure many of you have, and have never seen one with a reasonable settlement. I always object but I know almost no one else does.

 

[2101Guy]

Civil disputes settle all the time.

This.

If people only took the time to check out their local small claims court process, they'd realize how many large companies' agents (reps for the company in each state) reach out to the filer to often settle in Full as Soon as the agent is served with the Documented paperwork....

 

[Tesomega]

The beta, currently, is not something anyone pays for

It's distributed to a small fraction of FSD owners for testing and development purposes- it's not promised as, nor part of, your FSD purchase at all

So the claim MCU1 owners are getting 'less' of the public sold product is factually untrue right now.

It's possible it will be true if wide release happens AND Tesla doesn't do the computer upgrade free... but given they did AP computer upgrades free (and even camera ones) previously that seems like a bet I don't love your chances of.



Currently the only explicit-in-the-sale promise Tesla has violated regarding FSD was the promise to post 3/19 buyers for about 18 months or so that city streets was coming by end of that year (and I've cited that as the one no-kidding-legit legal basis for any lawsuit to this point many times in the past)




Now- the lawsuit linked yesterday is really weird in that he did not buy FSD

He bought EAP. Which has been feature complete for years now and does everything originally promised during sale. (Except, arguably, the limited range of enhanced summon)

there are several version of timeline here... for 2017 there was a video evidence that demonstrated function, promised EOY Coast-to-Coast (NY-CA) FSD Drive, language that led to believe only regulatory reviews pending, etc...

 

[2101Guy]

Did you ever look at the follow up to see what the outcome was?

Tesla Driver Was on Autopilot Eating a Bagel When He Smashed into a Fire Truck

A National Transportation Safety Board investigation found the driver had hands off the wheel and ignored warnings in the 2018 crash.

www.caranddriver.com

You make it sound terrible, but in the end the determined the guy wasn't paying attention, was eating breakfast, and had his hands off the wheel, and ignored warnings from the car.

PSA: Use critical thinking skills and research this stuff for yourself before blindly accepting headlines.

Why are you telling me? Tell the legal firm who filed the suit and included the reference to that accident in their DOCUMENTED LEGAL COURT FILINGS.

PSA: Go read the actual court filings


your welcome.

 

[Dewg]

Why are you telling me? Tell the legal firm who filed the suit and included the reference to that accident in their DOCUMENTED LEGAL COURT FILINGS.

PSA: Go read the actual court filings


your welcome.

Why am I telling you? You're the one who posted it. If you were quoting an article you read, perhaps from The Verge, then you should indicate that in your post, with a link to the source. You could also do your own research and post the follow up that I did in your quote, to provide a balanced opinion.

 

[2101Guy]

You could also do your own research and post the follow up that I did in your quote, to provide a balanced opinion.

My post was quoting the article that confirmed what is in the LEGAL FILINGS. Opinions of persons on this forum dont matter one iota in the pending litigation.

And if there is zero validity to the safety aspect called out in the current suit, perhaps this time around Tesla wont pay millions to settle like they did last time, especially since they now have a "hardcore litigation team" now, right?